PipeChat Digest #4084 - Friday, October 31, 2003 Re: Seating of the Mothers by <email@example.com> off-topic by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> leather? thong? breaking china? by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Coffee for organists by "Peter Rodwell" <email@example.com> Seating of the Mothers by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Home pipe organ by "Mike Franch" <email@example.com> seating moms & unity candle by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> 4" Schalmei by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Concert Announcement for Subiaco, Arkansas (Cross Posted) by "bruce dersch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Mother of the Bride by "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Re: Mother of the Bride by "Russ Greene" <email@example.com> Re: 4' Schalmei by "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: OFF-TOPIC: spare me the details by "Ray Ahrens" <email@example.com> Re: ALL READ - NOW!!! by "Ray Ahrens" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Mother of the Bride by "David Evangelides" <email@example.com> Recital by Nicholas Kynaston in Athens (correction) by "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: leather? thong? breaking china? by "Dick Meckstroth" <email@example.com> Organ at Ulm M=FCnster by "Karl Moyer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Mother of the Bride by "Ray Ahrens" <email@example.com> Re: PipeChat Digest #4080 - 10/30/03 by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Mother of the Bride by "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Seating of the Mothers From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:45:57 -0800 In a liturgical church, the proper order of the entrance procession should be this: thurifer cross and torches (choir, if present -- if they are normally located in the chancel) servers sacred ministers parents attendants in pairs groom and best man bride and father or whoever while a suitable congregational hymn is sung by ALL. The procession is NOT a photo op; it has the practical purpose of getting everybody from Point A to Point B, nothing more. The liturgy should be the SAME as the principal SUNDAY liturgy, plus the marriage service. Nothing more, nothing less ... no "unity candles", no inappropriate solos, no additional fol-de-rol. It is the CHURCH'S Sacrament to bestow. The priest or pastor is the "wedding director/consultant," and NO OTHER. Most priests I've worked for (Anglican AND RC) won't let wedding consultants in the DOOR (chuckle). The retiring procession at the end: bride and groom attendants parents thurifer cross and torches (choir) servers sacred ministers If a pagan bacchanal is wanted, there are plenty of venues for THAT (grin) ... if a sacramental blessing of the marriage is wanted, that's quite another thing. One of the BEST weddings we ever had at St. Matthew's was between an impoverished seminary student and a refugee from Eastern Europe. St. Mary's Guild cooked and decorated the parish hall for the reception; the Altar Guild did the flowers in church; one member loaned her daughter's wedding dress; the choir sang for free; I played for free; the whole parish got involved. It was LOVELY. Total cost: less than $500. By contrast, at the first wedding in the new church, the florist's bill was $10K ... it was a ZOO, and resulted in some VERY strict guidelines (chuckle). We had fewer problems than most, as only communicant members of St. Matthew's could be married in St. Matthew's, and they more-or-less knew what to expect. I really think that first wedding in the new church was a fluke. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: off-topic From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:42:40 -0600 (CST) Thank you David for stepping in...please do the same about the coffee thread.
(back) Subject: leather? thong? breaking china? From: <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:55:37 -0800 ROFL! My usual attire on Sunday morning is a black cassock and a voluminous ankle-length white linen surplice, with academic hood on feast-days. I DO own a leather bar vest, I think ... I haven't worn it in years. It's too HOT in So Cal most of the time to wear full kit. I've never owned a thong in my LIFE (chuckle). However, I DO recommend wearing an athletic supporter (if you're a man) when playing the Bach D Major Prelude and Fugue (and similar pieces) = (grin). Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Coffee for organists From: "Peter Rodwell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:10:16 +0100 In the spirit of J S Bach, who was said to have crept out for a beer in a nearby bar during the sermons, I offer the following traditional Spanish form of coffee, especially for organists suffering in freezing lofts. It's called "carajillo", pronounced "caraHEEElyo". You need: Spanish coffee, "torrefacto" blend - very, very dark and strong, made espresso style. Plus: a goodly glass of brandy, preferrably Spanish (it's sweeter than French brandy), the cheaper the better. Sugar to taste. 1. Make the coffee. 2. Heat up the brandy with the sugar in it and set fire to it. 3. Let it burn for 30 seconds or so. 4. Put out the flames. 5. Pour in the coffee and stir. 6. If you burnt the brandy in the same glass as you're going to drink from, wait for the glass to cool down. 7. Drink it. Do NOT try to drink it without first putting out the fire, especially if you have a mustache and/or you value your eyebrows. Just my 2 euros' worth. Peter.
(back) Subject: Seating of the Mothers From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:15:23 -0600 Sorry, I meant "discreet", not "discrete." How long does the organist have? Until he/she is finished.......that's his/her judgment, not mine. But I will add that my tradition and my experiences in ministry have not been high church. In almost thirty years of ministry, I have never presided at a service with a "professional organist" if by that one means a person with extensive education at the organ, and I have done only one wedding where we had a pipe organ because I have not been privileged to minister in facilities where we had them. Dennis Steckley "And what happens to the piece that the organist is playing when you give the nod? How long do give him or her to bring it to a reasonably plausible premature truncation? "Discrete" is exactly what it isn't. Please check your dictionary. Discrete means existing in pieces that can be distinguished and counted and that have a structure that should not be violated. The better the music, the more such structure it will have"
(back) Subject: Home pipe organ From: "Mike Franch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:52:57 -0600 I am looking to purchase a pipe organ for my home. It needs to fit a 3' = deep x 5" wide space. I have a cathedral ceiling, so height is not an issue. My = budget (for now at least) is $5,000; so brand-new has obviously been ruled = out. It must be at least somewhat playable, and have 2 manuals and pedal. I = would facilitate disassembly and moving, so the price is to move it from your space. It has to be a local move (within 150 miles of Madison, WI) unless it=92s = an offer I can't refuse, or your part of the country is very scenic. Mike Franch Madison, WI _________________________________________________________________ Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American = Greetings! Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=3Dmsne134
(back) Subject: seating moms & unity candle From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:56:17 -0600 (CST) I hope Rome gets as vigilant about marriage rites as it has with the revised General Instruction to the Roman Missal. For our Protestant sisters & brothers, you may not know that Rome has updated the instructions on how to celebrate the eucharistic liturgy...much of it stems from perceived and some real abuses. It is trying to reiterate what was there for the most part, only this time the "faithful" are to receive instruction on how we worship. It's long overdo, and in some cases will cause problems. Now to weddings. There has been a provisional marriage rite for years, and an official rite which is languishing in the translation process. What is significant about both is the directions for the procession. It attempts to give a Christian foundation for the actions at a wedding. Much of what we do as "traditional" ceremony is based on practices long dead in most Western cultures, like arranged marriages, paying for the woman, etc.. Hence, the veiled bride so the groom doesn't get too good a look before the wedding, the father handing over the bought "goods" to the groom, yadayada. The new rite calls for the groom and all parents to be in the procession - how this is done is left to the couple. The groom and bride can be escorted by both parents, or the parents can walk in first and the bride & groom together. Plus anyone else such as grandparents or godparents could be in the procession. It's a way of saying the couple are equal in this endeavor, and both parents and others have had a hand in bringing up those two from childhood. A very Christian and enlightened symbol, I think. Theologically, the "symbol of unity" is the married couple themselves. The unity candle is a deflection of that truth, and I would argue appeared because couples don't have proper catechesis and marriage has become devoid of serious intent - 2/3 ending in divorce. The only time I've seen the candle lighting based in real Christian symbolism is when a priest at one parish had parents take the flame from the burning Easter/Paschal candle to light the candles, and he commented on marriage being grounded in our baptismal calling. That gave a serious Christian excuse for the unity candle ritual. If Rome really gets serious about the marriage rites, other denominations will follow...look what happened with liturgy in general after Vatican II. Also, because there is such a vast number of Catholic weddings, couples will eventually carry it to their own weddings. So many couples I meet with base their weddings on what friends or relatives did. Meanwhile, I always suggest silence during lighting of "the candle"...I'm not big on providing traveling music for such a brief moment.
(back) Subject: 4" Schalmei From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:32:35 -0600 (CST) Just to clarify my thoughts. I didn't intend to say the stop was in invention of the neo-Baroque, just the insistance of placing it in the pedal.
(back) Subject: Concert Announcement for Subiaco, Arkansas (Cross Posted) From: "bruce dersch" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:35:13 -0600 (GMT-06:00) Subiaco Abbey/Academy presents: Philip Bordeleau, Organist Choirmaster @ St. Andrew Cathedral, Little Rock Date: Wednesday, November 5, 2003 Time: 7:45 p.m. Place: St. Benedict Church, Subiaco Abbey, Subiaco, Arkansas 72865 Cost: Free but we will accept donations!!!! Phone: 479-934-1276 (Music Department Office) Program: Pomp and Circumstance March Sir Edward Elgar Toccata Theodore Dubois Hymn 288, "Praise My Soul, the King of Heaven" Lauda Anima Toccata and Fugue in D Minor Edward Lemare Gigue Fugue Edward Lemare Air and Variation Leo Sowerby FINALE from Symphony IV (Transcription) Petr Illych Tchaikovsky Biography: Phil Bordeleau grew up in New England where his first piano teacher was = his father, Paul Bordeleau, a professional pianist and piano instructor. = Subsequent organ instruction was with Kenneth Wilson, and George Faxon. = Additional piano study was done with Julius Chaloff of Boston. Mr. Bordeleau studied organ at Baylor University with famed recitalist, = Joyce Jones. Upon transferring to The University of North Texas and = studying with Dale Peters, he received his Bachelor's of Music in Organ = performance. Following this time he worked as a voicer and service = technician for the Ross King Pipe Organ Company of Fort Worth Texas, where = he was also organist at several area churches. Most recently, Mr. = Bordeleau was the Organist and Associate Director of Music at Saint Andrew = Catholic Church in Fort Worth, for seven years, a position he held = full-time while completing the degree Masters of Music in Choral Studies = at Texas Christian University. Mr. Bordeleau assumed the position of Organist/Director of Music at The = Cathedral of Saint Andrew in October of 1999 where he plays the organ, = directs the Cathedral Choir and Handbell Choir, and oversees a program = that includes instrumentalists, The Cathedral Youth Chorale, visiting = choirs, professional cantors, coordination of twice-yearly chorale = workshops,and the Cathedral Master Chorale, which presents masterworks of chorale = literature, each fall and Spring. Mr. Bordeleau has played many organ programs, specializing in orchestral = transcriptions and silent movie accompaniment. Director of Music\r\nSubiaco Academy\r\n405 North Subiaco Ave\r\nSubiaco = AR 72865\r\firstname.lastname@example.org\r\n501-934-1276
(back) Subject: Mother of the Bride From: "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:54:02 -0500 I'm not going to quote all that------but if that's what you think, I feel sorry for you. I'm the mother of 3 beautiful daughters, and I also have 2 sisters and = a niece. Nice weddings for all, as well as my own. The veil is a symbol of virginity. The groom lifts the veil, but only after the ceremony. It's a symbol of Christian chastity before marriage. The father as escort, and handing over the bride to the groom, is a symbol of handing over to the new husband the duties of protection, care = and support for the bride. In a sense he is giving his daughter away, but = only to another man's safekeeping. And yes, the mother of the bride is the first member of the wedding party, the first one to walk on the white carpet if there is one. She has been responsible for the care, education, morals, and development of this daughter, to prepare her daughter to pick up the responsibility of taking good Christian care of herself and all the people around her for the rest = of her life. She deserves respect. And she probably also had a big hand in = planning the wedding, which is a combination of family reunion, religious ceremony, and the biggest party of most people's lives, requiring an endless amount = of knowledge about food, clothes for everybody, taking care of incoming = gifts, invitations and other paper needs, music for both the ceremony and reception, places to go, transportation, who to ask for what services, decor, flowers for people, church and reception, how big a cake is needed, who all the relatives are, honeymoon plans, a place to live afterward, all the furnishings, and how to pay for the whole mess. This takes a certain amount of experience. When that Mother steps out in that church, she has hit one of the highest points of her life. I feel sorry for all you men who apparently have no idea what it takes to put on a big wedding, or even a small one. You just simply trust that the food will be good. Any woman could easily poison you. I'm sorry that you seem to have such a poor lot of people getting married. I bet you never notice the good ones. Furthermore, you should be keeping an eye on the clock. Plan ahead! = As it gets time to start, don't begin a 10 minute concert piece. Have some flexible material to use, so that you CAN finish it off shortly and play a piece especially for that woman. SHE is the one behind it all, more than the bride. Without her years of care of the girl child there would be no bride, = no need for music, and no job for you. Diane S.-------an experienced Mother of brides --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Information Boulevard's Virus = Scanning]
(back) Subject: Re: Mother of the Bride From: "Russ Greene" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:05:29 -0600 Bravo!! Russ Greene, an experienced father of the bride (and a veteran Organist/Choral Director) On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 02:54 PM, STRAIGHT wrote: > When that Mother steps out in that church, she has hit one of the > highest points of her life. > > I feel sorry for all you men who apparently have no idea what it > takes > to put on a big wedding, or even a small one. > You just simply trust that the food will be good. Any woman could > easily poison you. > I'm sorry that you seem to have such a poor lot of people getting > married. I bet you never notice the good ones. > Furthermore, you should be keeping an eye on the clock. Plan > ahead! As > it gets time to start, don't begin a 10 minute concert piece. Have > some > flexible material to use, so that you CAN finish it off shortly and > play a > piece especially for that woman. SHE is the one behind it all, more > than > the bride. > Without her years of care of the girl child there would be no > bride, no > need for music, and no job for you.
(back) Subject: Re: 4' Schalmei From: "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:07:21 +0000 (GMT) This seems to be the only organ related topic under discussion at the moment. Terry Hicks is right about the 2' reeds in baroque pedal organs - though there are few left in original condition today. Arp Schnitger had a 2' Cornett as first choice and sometimes had a 4' Trompet, presumably to go with the pedal chorus. More often he had 2 16's and a coupler. Arguably the baroque revival in the UK started with Ralph Downes, and both of his first major organs, Brompton Oratory (Walker) and the Royal Festival Hall have 2' reeds on the pedal. The RFH is a Cornet 2', and it also has a 4' Schalmei from the Choir, and the Oratory has a 2' Trumpet. No 4' reed. However I personally like the sound of a well voiced Schalmei, and regard the tonal contrast between flues and reeds as sometimes more interesting. In actual fact, there are not that many Chorale Preludes written with a Cantus Firmus in the Bass. My favourite is "Christ Unser Herr Zum Jordan Kam" (Bach) which sounds best to my ears with a 16' Quintaten + 4' flute in the left hand and an 8' Gedeckt and 2' Flute in the Right with a 4' Schalmei for the Chorale in the pedals. But this is, I think, a matter of personal taste. Nicholas Kynaston is giving a recital on the 4 manual Klais organ in the concert hall in Athens on november 19th in which he includes music by De Grigny, Bach, Bohm and Buxtehude. His registration is sure to be authoritative. You will need greek fonts to read this programme! ΜΕΓΑΡΟ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗΣ ΑΘΗΝΩΝ ΑΙΘΟΥΣΑ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΤΗΣ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗΣ 19 Νοεμβρίου 2003 Μουσικές από την εποχή του μπαρόκ: Ο Johann Sebastian Bach και η εποχή του NICOLAS DE GRIGNY (1672-1703) Πέντε μέρη από το Πρώτο βιβλίο για όργανο 1er Kyrie en taille a 5 Fugue a 5, qui renferme le chant du Kyrie Cromorne en taille a 2 parties Trio en dialogue Dialogue sur les Grands Jeux JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH (1685-1750) Δύο χορικά πρελούδια πάνω στο Allein Gott in der H=F6h sei Ehr, BWV 715 και 663 Fughetta super Wir glauben all an einen Gott, BWV 681 Piece d=92Orgue ή Φαντασία σε Σολ-μείζονα, BWV 572 Tres vitement =96 Gravement =96 Lentement Διάλειμμα GEORG B=D6HM (1661-1733) Πρελούδιο σε σολ-ελάσσονα Χορικό πρελούδιο Vater unser im Himmelreich JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH (1685-1750) Χορικό πρελούδιο Erbarm dich mein, o Herre Gott, BWV 721 Φούγκα σε σι-ελάσσονα (πάνω σε ένα θέμα του Corelli), BWV 579 DIETRICH BUXTEHUDE (1637 [;] =96 1707) Πασσακάλια σε ρε-ελάσσονα, BuxWV 161 JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH (1685-1750) Πρελούδιο και φούγκα σε σι-ελάσσονα, BWV 544 John Foss =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Farewell to an era - Concorde says goodbye 50 years ago Menu of the week : Moussaka ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC: spare me the details From: "Ray Ahrens" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:10:16 -0600 Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: ALL READ - NOW!!! From: "Ray Ahrens" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:12:40 -0600 Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: Mother of the Bride From: "David Evangelides" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:12:14 -0600 Very well said Diane. I applaud your comments. By the way, with respect to the Mother of the Bride, 'after the wedding' can also be a depressing time for her, as she sees her daughter leaving home, the months of planning now behind, the guests going their separate ways, etc. So she needs support during these days as well. As church musicians, (to keep it on topic!) we are often viewed by the congregation as an extension of the ministerial staff, and should be available for spiritual support when the pastors are inaccessible. Also, if it wasn=92t for my (now deceased) mother-in-law whom I loved, I wouldn=92t have been blessed with such a good wife for over 20 yrs., (& children)! :) David E David Evangelides Colorado Springs, Colorado -----Original Message----- From: "STRAIGHT " <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> > When that Mother steps out in that church, she has hit one of the > highest points of her life. >
(back) Subject: Recital by Nicholas Kynaston in Athens (correction) From: "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:19:53 +0000 (GMT) My apologies - the 1993 Klais organ in the Megaron Musikis in Athens is 5 manuals, not 4. It was a gift, I believe, of the German government. John Foss =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Farewell to an era - Concorde says goodbye 50 years ago Menu of the week : Moussaka ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
(back) Subject: Re: leather? thong? breaking china? From: "Dick Meckstroth" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:17:14 -0500 >However, I DO recommend wearing an athletic supporter (if you're a man) >when playing the Bach D Major Prelude and Fugue (and similar pieces) = (grin). One more suggestion. It's easier to rotate through that scale if you wear = pants OVER the athletic supporter.
(back) Subject: Organ at Ulm M=FCnster From: "Karl Moyer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:34:39 -0500 Can anyone send me the stop list and information on registration aids, et al, regarding the main organ at Ulm M=FCnster? Or refer me to a web site with those details? Many thanks. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA
(back) Subject: Re: Mother of the Bride From: "Ray Ahrens" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:36:01 -0600 Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4080 - 10/30/03 From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:36:10 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Music for November In my music for November, I indicated that the selections for 9 November were still in the thought process. I forgot that I had already selected music for Sunday the 2nd. I have moved the listed Sowerby pieces to 9 November and will be playing selections from my ever-favorite "Green Mountain Organ Book" by Charles Callahan. (in keeping with another topic, I will add here that "Green Mountain" Coffee Roasters provides me with wonderful coffee, too!!) for 2 November Prelude Prelude, Meditation and Fugue ... Charles Callahan Offertory Dialog ... Charles Callahan Postlude Procession ... Charles Callahan There is additional information on my webpage http://www.baskerbeagles.com click "Organ Music for Sunday" and visit the Chapel of All Hounds, too!! ;-) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >Subject: Re: Gay Organist Fired Link (OK, I admit it's off- topic) >From: <ContraReed@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:32:09 EST Sigh! It's really a shame that we have strayed so far from the traditional reasons for marriage: getting more cattle, getting more land, uniting two people to ease political tension, restoring a noble family with much needed money, I just dont' know what's gotten in to people! ;-) heeheehee Richard, Congratulations on having your church (almost) approve Patrick Murphy to rebuild your pipe organ. I think you will all be very pleased with the results. Perhaps someone will object to your parish taking on $500,000 debt and just donate the money... ;-) Believe it or not... it's really out there!! Please keep us posted. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From: "STRAIGHT" <STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net> >Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:56:11 -0500 >> Absolutely, on both counts! Where did this druidic Unity Candle ritual come from, anyway? > >I think it's kind of nice. Just a little symbol of the joining of the two families to form a new one. > True, especially when the couple "forgets" and blows out the two original candles, symbolically killing their inlaws!! ;-) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Scritchies and Haruffaroo-bahawow... Unkie Doinky ... aka Bruce and the Baskerbeagles of HowlingAcres = http://baskerbeagles.com HELP FEED ANIMALS FOR FREE http://tinyurl.com/2j5i and = http://pets.care2.com
(back) Subject: Re: Mother of the Bride From: "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:48:21 -0500 on 10/31/03 3:54 PM, STRAIGHT at STRAIGHT@infoblvd.net wrote: > > And yes, the mother of the bride is the first member of the wedding > party, the first one to walk on the white carpet if there is one. Diane, I agree with you about respecting the mother of the bride. I am = only writing to ask about what I quote above. It doesn't jive with the many weddings I've seen, where the aisle runner goes down after the mothers are seated, not before. Does it go down just before the mothers come in in = your experience? Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio firstname.lastname@example.org