PipeChat Digest #3932 - Wednesday, September 3, 2003
 
OOPS addendum
  by "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com>
Re: Daniel
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: Daniel
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
Re: Chimes (tubular bells)
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Re: Chimes (tubular bells)
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Re: Hanging Chimes (IMPORTANT)
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Re: A new question about chimes
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Re: One ringy-dingy
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
RE: Chimes (tubular bells)
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
Re: Daniel
  by "Daniel Hopkins" <danielwh@ns.sympatico.ca>
Re: A new question about chimes
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Chimes (tubular bells)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Chimes (tubular bells)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Chimes (tubular bells)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: One ringy-dingy
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
Re: Chimes (tubular bells)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: A new question about chimes
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
 

(back) Subject: OOPS addendum From: "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:07:52 -0500   I hit the send key before my brain was engaged.   Eric -- you also need to construct a dentil-like bar at the bottom with padding -- felt works find small enough to capture each chime and keep it from swinging but large enough to allow just a little swing which will always happen.   _|--|_|--| _|--|_|--| _|--|_|--| _|--|_|--| This is sort-of what I mean by dentil-shaped Larry Wheelock Director of Music Ministries Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, Wisconsin musicdirector@kenwood_umc.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Daniel From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:29:56 -0700   You want me to do WHAT for $20???!!!   Daniel Hopkins wrote: > > >>Well, it sure was an opener for a conversation! >> >>No. Please send right away to >> >>Alan F...... >>.... > > > > haha, yes :-)> > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: RE: Daniel From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:45:36 -0500   Yeah, I didn't get mine either....   -----Original Message----- From: Alan Freed [mailto:acfreed0904@earthlink.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 12:19 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Daniel   On 9/3/03 11:01 AM, "Daniel Hopkins" <danielwh@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:   > oopps sorry that was a private message   Well, it sure was an opener for a conversation!   No. Please send right away to   Alan F...... .....   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Chimes (tubular bells) From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:55:25 -0700   On 9/3/03 10:19 AM, RonSeverin@aol.com said something about:   > I've been following this thread, and I wonder, isn't it true that > orchestral chimes have some sort of damper to stop the > ring when appropriate.   My thought is to have a high school percussionist friend of mine hold the mallet in one hand, and wear a cotton glove on the other hand, and = manually dampen chimes as appropriate. Also, the pieces for which we'll use the chimes (this year, anyway) have parts which aren't intense -- maybe one chime per measure, or once every two measures. Nothing too out of control. Good point, though.   When building the frame, which I will construct out of 2x6 pine and then stain with a cherry finish, this is the picture I'm using for reference:   http://www.1800usaband.com/htmls/picturedetail.asp?PictureID=3D675   The difference is, with no damper pedal, I'll make the base a heavy square platform, rather than the I-beam (or "H") that you see in that photo.   Eric -- still reading all of these fabulous replies, and thanks to Shelley for explaining things better than I did    
(back) Subject: Re: Chimes (tubular bells) From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:56:28 -0700   On 9/3/03 10:24 AM, Shelley Culver said something about:   > I can't speak exactly about Eric's organ, but he said it was a carillon, > and I think it's probably a digital stop (?). But I could be totally > wrong on that one.   It is a Rodgers digital. I'd have to bang on the speakers -- or perhaps = the console itself -- in the absence of pipes!    
(back) Subject: Re: Hanging Chimes (IMPORTANT) From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:59:41 -0700   On 9/3/03 10:29 AM, Jason M. Taylor said something about:   > If the tubes were to be mounted using a metal shaft through the tube, = then the > shaft could be covered with Surgical Tubing.   This is an excellent point, and one I really was hoping I could address = with all of you who know a lot more than I do.   I was thinking of perhaps attaching the chimes using a brass bolt, and bolting it to a 2x6 or whatever, and put a felt washer in between the = chime and the board. The brass bolt would keep the chime from being able to = swing back and forth, and would be better than a plain old nail, which wouldn't keep the chime from moving.   So is a brass bolt okay? Or are we looking at leather rope as a necessity, and what exactly is surgical tubing?   Eric      
(back) Subject: Re: A new question about chimes From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:02:23 -0700   On 9/3/03 10:24 AM, Alan Freed said something about:   > All holes are felt-lined, of course.   How critical is this, if the chime is bolted to the board from which it is suspended, as opposed to if it was leather strapped?      
(back) Subject: Re: One ringy-dingy From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:06:51 -0700   On 9/3/03 11:02 AM, Tim Bovard said something about:   > Organ chime tubes will already have holes for hanging straps at their = tops > (the closed end of the tube, usually).   Got it. Now, what if I didn't want to use straps, but instead wanted to = use a nail, or a bolt?      
(back) Subject: RE: Chimes (tubular bells) From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:10:48 -0500   Not a bad idea in any case....     It is a Rodgers digital. I'd have to bang on the speakers -- or perhaps the console itself -- in the absence of pipes!   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Daniel From: "Daniel Hopkins" <danielwh@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:03:34 -0300   You want me to do WHAT for $20???!!!     lol now calm yourself Bud hahaha Daniel    
(back) Subject: Re: A new question about chimes From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:30:12 -0700   You CAN'T bolt them to a board ... they have to swing free, or they won't "ring" ... the holes in the DAMPER board have to be felt-lined to STOP the ring.   Cheers,   Bud   Eric McKirdy wrote: > On 9/3/03 10:24 AM, Alan Freed said something about: > > >>All holes are felt-lined, of course. > > > How critical is this, if the chime is bolted to the board from which it = is > suspended, as opposed to if it was leather strapped? > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: Re: Chimes (tubular bells) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:02:17 -0400   On 9/3/03 1:19 PM, "RonSeverin@aol.com" <RonSeverin@aol.com> wrote:   > I've been following this thread, and I wonder, isn't it true that > orchestral chimes have some sort of damper to stop the > ring when appropriate. Wouldn't this need to be built in if > using regular organ chimes hit with a hammer no matter > how they are mounted? Any chime would ring over long > if not dampered in some way. I've never seen a set of > orchestral chimes upclose, but I would bet some sort of > damper arrangement, perhaps a foot pedal activator is > involved. >=20 Absotively. Used to play them in college. Pedal for your left foot. Hit that pedal, and it clamps the damper on the whole thing. Not complex (actually almost primitive), but I DEFINITELY would not want to =B3construct=B2 that thing from raw materials unless I were a HECK of a lot more of an engineer and craftsman than I am (which is NONE).   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Chimes (tubular bells) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:14:28 -0400   On 9/3/03 1:28 PM, "Shelley Culver" <culverse@westminster.edu> wrote:   > Don't you think you could just put your hand on the pipe or something? = Sort of > like damping a timpani (again, I've never actually done this, but I've = seen it > done.)   Shel: Well, yes, you could. But usually tymps are 2, or 4. Rarely more. Rarely more than two at a time. But if you've been banging out a melody (or, glory, arpeggios!) on them bells, that's a lot to damp by hand. And it's easy, as long as you're building the darn thing, to put in a damper pedal (which I called a "squelch" pedal earlier today because I couldn't remember what it was called--after all, it's been 49 years since I last whacked that thing).   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Chimes (tubular bells) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:29:15 -0400   On 9/3/03 1:38 PM, "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> wrote:   > Usually the player simply touches the chiime with his other hand to deade= n it > Wear cloth gloves to prevent tarnish!. >=20 > =80=80=80Certainly, if you=B9re just damping one (or a few) bells. And yes, on t= he > (cotton) gloves. > =20 > A wooden mallet or a hard plastic screwdriver handle works best to give a= good > "dong". Strike them at the very top for best results. Never hit a chime w= ith a > metal object. >=20 > =80=80=80Our mallets were of tight-wrapped (like a jelly-roll) leather. I trie= d to > buy one in the musical instrument block of Manhattan about 25 years ago, = and > couldn=B9t find one, so, now, I don=B9t know. But PLASTIC??? Well, there ar= e > many plastics. Maybe you=B9re right. > =20 > If you can't find a set you can always make your own out of steel or alum= inium > tubing sold in hardware stores for electrical conduit. You just cut them = to > length and tune them by grinding them shorter. The holes should be 1-3 i= nches > from the top. (make the lowest note first - you can them use your boo-boo= 's > for higher notes.) A plug of some sort in the top makes the sound more > stable. Less of that clang sound and the annoying yang-yang ring that you= get > without a plug. >=20 > =80=80=80Now, Nelson, you=B9re over my head. (To my astonishment and embarrassme= nt.) > But you=B9d use something less than sterling silver???? (But, while I=B9m a = bit > shocked, I really can=B9t say I have any authority on this. Yet . . . =B3ste= el or > aluminum=B2 doesn=B9t sound right at all.) You mentioned =B3tarnish.=B2 Do stee= l and > aluminum tarnish from the oils in my greasy hands? Brass, bronze, yes. = But > steel and aluminum? KLANK! > =20 > Alan > =20 >=20      
(back) Subject: Re: One ringy-dingy From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:31:08 -0500   At 11:06 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, Eric wrote: >Got it. Now, what if I didn't want to use straps, but instead wanted to = use >a nail, or a bolt?   I'd agree with Bud that this probably wouldn't be satisfactory, as the chime tube would be too "restrained". The tube will need to be able to swing a little, in the same basic direction as it is hit, in order for it to ring sufficiently. (in other words, the hanging hole should end up being in line with the rail holding the tubes -- not perpendicular to it = as your bolt would probably be) Another reason for them to hang this way is to minimize the possible sideways movement of each chime, so they don't bang into their neighbors!)   Another possible material to hang the chimes with would be plastic-coated aircraft cable. You could use individual loops for each chime, or perhaps =   even suspend the whole set on a single cable or two. (looped thru = something to keep the chimes from moving sideways into one another, of course)   Hope this helps a bit --   Tim          
(back) Subject: Re: Chimes (tubular bells) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:38:22 -0400   On 9/3/03 1:55 PM, "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote:   > with no damper pedal, I'll make the base a heavy square > platform, rather than the I-beam (or "H") that you see in that photo.   Eric: Stop now! This is a bigger job than you think (based on your = post). That is NOT a photo, and shows NONE of the engineering details that you'll need to know. I can't help you (if I could, I would) other than to say, "Don't even START" until you know a heck damn hell smash of a lot more = about what you're DOING!" You'll just end up disGUSTed! And nobody needs that.   Alan    
(back) Subject: RE: A new question about chimes From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:23:57 -0400   Colin Mitchell writes:   > OF COURSE, the purists would demand tracker action rather than electricfication, but I expect someone in the UK could design a good barker-lever version for the Francophiles or a full-blown pneumatic system for towers containing early 20th century bells.   > Of course, one could never QUITE enjoy that control and intimacy of touch available with the historic pegs, squares, pedals,levers, pulleys and wires.   > (Anyone who has ever tried an old carillon as I have, will know how funny that last paragraph is! It pays to be an Olympic Athlete on steroids, amphetomines and pain killers all at the same time. A tracker organ is but a mere stepping stone!)   Just to be sure that you aren't serious, as one who greatly enjoyed a = life of chime for many years (although it's been awhile since), I must point out that an authentic mechanical clavier is far more = important for a carillon than for an organ. Power assistance for the = few lowest bells of a heavy carillon might be o.k. if not essential; but = aside from that, a chime or carillon played electrically is barely to be = called a musical instrument at all. It's like asssuming that a Steinway = concert grand would give a good account of itself when played from a = theater organ console.   A carillon and its tower are as expensive as a large pipe organ-- easily = a million dollars altogether, and built properly in an environment where = it can be appreciated, worth every penny. So it's a shame when, = prepared to go to all that trouble for something that can make music, an = institution cannot see its way to making it playable in a manner that = would interest a musician.   A carillon action in reasonably good condition and adjustment can be = rather athletic to play, but if it is painful then something is wrong = with one's technique. Most carillonneurs wear gloves or simply wrap = band-aids around the base of their little fingers, but a few say that = not even this should be necessary.