PipeChat Digest #3957 - Saturday, September 13, 2003
 
RE: here we go, yet again
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: here we go, yet again
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: here we go, yet again
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
TAO article
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: here we go, yet again
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
RE: TAO article
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: here we go, yet again
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: here we go, yet again
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Make it sound GOOD.  (Was:  here we go, yet again)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
 

(back) Subject: RE: here we go, yet again From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:20:22 -0400   Right on bud! I wish more organists would refuse to play electrics=2E Th= en churches would have to get pipes or they wouldn't have an organist! It always astounds me the number of organists (some very well educated) who are willing to lower themselves to the level of playing an electric=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: quilisma@cox=2Enet Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:40:30 -0700 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: here we go, yet again     Almost ANY church that can afford an AGO console electronic substitute=20 can afford a pipe organ=2E   Here's the thing: no, you probably CAN'T play the big repertoire on a=20 small pipe organ, but how many village organists DO?   A prelude, offertory, and postlude from one of the Lorenz organ mags,=20 three hymns, and MAYBE an anthem do NOT require 75 speaking stops (grin)=2E=     ORGANISTS and their "dream-lists", as much as PRICES, are responsible=20 for the proliferation of electronic substitutes=2E   How is it that village organists managed on 2m/ped reed organs and small=20=   pipe organs for centuries?   Organs such as:   SW   8' Stopped Diapason 8' Salicional 4' Harmonic Flute   Tremulant   GT   8' Open Diapason 8' Melodia or Dulciana 4' Octave   Sw/Gt 8 Sw/Gt 4   PED   16' Bourdon   Sw/Ped 8 Gt/Ped 8   Go PLAY one of the lovely 19th century examples, such as are heard=20 regularly at OHS conventions, rather than saying, "oh, but it doesn't=20 have X, Y, or Z; and I simply MUST have X, Y, Z, AND four manuals"=20 (chuckle)=2E   An historical example of a small organ that CAN play a LOT of music: Dom=20=   Paul Benoit's Cavaille-Coll organ at Clerveaux Abbey in Luxembourg:   1st manual - Grand Orgue   16' Bourdon 8' Montre 8' Flute harmonique 8' Bourdon 4' Prestant     2nd manual - Positif   8' Salicional 8' Cor de nuit 4' Flute douce 2 2/3' Nazard 2' Flautino 8' Cromorne     3rd manual - R=E9cit   8' Flute 8' Gambe 8' Voix c=E9leste 4' Flute octaviante IV Plein-jeu 8' Trompette 8' Hautbois     P=E9dale   16' Soubasse 8' Basse       which could be compacted even further to:       G=2EO=2E   16' Bourdon 8' Montre 8' Harmonic Flute 8' Gambe 4' Prestant Plein Jeu V 8' Trompette   Recit   8' Bourdon 8' Salicional 8' Voix Celeste 4' Flute Octaviante 2 2/3 Cornet III 8' Hautbois   Pedale   16' Soubasse 8' Montre (transmission) 8' Flute (transmission) 8' Trompette (transmission)   Now =2E=2E=2E stare at the original C-C stoplist =2E=2E=2E and use your IM= AGINATION=2E=20 Bourdon 16 + Flute Harmonique 8' played up an octave yields flutes 8-4;=20=   Recit Hautbois + Flute 4' yields Cor Anglais; GO or Recit Flute 8' + Po=2E= =20 Nazard yields Quintadena; PO Salicional + Nazard is another possible=20 Quintadena; GO Bourdon 16', Montre 8, Prestant 4' played up an octave=20 yields a respectable 4' plenum; and on and on and on=2E   Imagination IS required; but I'd rather have half-a-dozen=20 EXQUISITELY-VOICED ranks of pipes with INTEGRITY than $700K worth of=20 electronic substitute which still lacks =2E=2E=2E how did the organist of=20=   Trinity Wall Street put it?   "Suchness=2E"   SCALING, VOICING, PLACEMENT, AND ACOUSTICS are what MATTER=2E A small=20 organ in a west gallery in a reverberant church can do MIRACULOUS=20 things=2E I played a VERY small Johnson (I think it was) in a VERY big RC=20=   church in Elyria, OH, that supported congregational singing just FINE,=20 thank you very much (grin)=2E   The scaling and voicing of these 19th century instruments is not an=20 alchemist's secret =2E=2E=2E there are plenty of examples extant=2E I'm st= ill=20 waiting for someone to make an historically-informed version of one of the= m=2E   Cheers,   Bud     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:46:44 -0400   Bud,   I have played a few of Brombaughs intruments and they are fine speciemns o= f organ buuilding=2E They are:   1=2E Ashland Avenue Baptist, Toledo Ohio=2E One of his very first instrum= ents=2E There are even stops BEHIND the player on the ruckpositive! Very interesting instrument 2=2E First Christian Reformed Church TOledo, Ohio, another early installation=20 3=2E Fairchild Chapel, Oberlin College=2E This instrument has the split = keys on the sharps and flats=2E=20   All 3 are unique and historic intruments that I was thrilled ot get to pla= y=2E   Andrew Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: DOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZL Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:23:26 -0700 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: here we go, yet again     Um, I can't say this without stepping on some toes, but here goes:   The two pipe organ examples cited are less than stellar representations=20=   of the organ-builder's art=2E They weren't great when they were NEW; one=20=   had the dubious benefit of a well-known "consultant" whose ideas were=20 straight from Planet He-Wants-WHAT??!! (grin)   In the case of Organ #1, the PIPES (and probably most of the mechanism,=20=   except for the electro-mechanical relays) of that factory-mass-produced=20=   organ are good enough to re-voice and re-use=2E WONDERS can be=20 accomplished by a MASTER voicer=2E   And whoever told you that Drainpipe Downspout Organ Co=2E's pipes "can't=20=   be revoiced" either didn't know HOW, or didn't want to BOTHER=2E It's=20 STILL cheaper by 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of new pipes, and in this case,=20 you're going to have GOOD zinc basses from the 1950s, before the "zinc=20 crisis" which caused the facade of Organ #2 to need replacing in=20 something like 20 years (!)=2E   Organ #2: you have my sympathy (grin)=2E NEITHER the pipework NOR the=20 mechanism is cause for much of anything but consternation, though again,=20=   a MASTER voicer could do SOMETHING, IF he could be convinced to come=20 within a country mile of the beast (chuckle)=2E   MASTER builders and MASTER voicers (rightly) do not want their names=20 associated with attempts at sow's-ear-to-silk-purse alchemy attempts=2E=20=   There has to be SOMETHING there to BEGIN with =2E=2E=2E pipes or mechanism= =2E   Notice I keep saying MASTER builders and MASTER voicers=2E There are a=20 handful in this country, and a handful abroad=2E They should be sought=20 out, their livings endowed, built comfortable homes, their children sent=20=   to school, servants furnished, and CODDLED, for they are a NATIONAL=20 TREASURE=2E   (1) John Brombaugh, and just about anybody descended from him in that=20 "line" =2E=2E=2E forgive me if I don't list them all, because I'll surely=20=   leave SOMEBODY out=2E   (2) A=2E Thompson Allen and Co=2E -- Mr=2E Ernest M=2E Skinner's shop crew= =20 reincarnated=2E   (3) Nichols and Simpson, who seem to have sprung full-blown from the sea=20=   on a pipe-metal clam-shell stamped "Property of G=2ED=2EH=2E" (grin)=2E   There are others =2E=2E=2E that's only a sampling=2E   Now, here's another point: if the church WON'T rip out the Aunt Minnie=20 Ostrich-Feather Deep Pile Double Pad Memorial Wall-To-Wall Abomination,=20=   then you're probably wasting your money=2E   Ditto boards of directors who won't consent to siliconing/epoxying=20 everything in the place that doesn't MOVE=2E After the organ and=20 organ-case itself, the ROOM is the third-most-important component of the=20=   instrument=2E   There's one bestrangulated organ in San Diego in a church where the=20 Vestry REFUSED to allow the tonal openings to be enlarged by one=20 centimeter when the new organ was installed=2E The result: an organ that=20=   is never heard in balance OR in tune, as the Swell needs a roadmap to=20 get out into the chancel, never MIND the nave =2E=2E=2E ditto any natural = flow=20 of air=2E Oh, and the Positiv is around the corner in the BELL TOWER=2E   Chancel organs that face inward, unless the chancel is VERY high and=20 VERY wide, need all the help they can get=2E   Ultimately, you get what you pay for=2E As Noel remarked, it comes down to= =20 a matter of stewardship=2E   Cheers,   Bud       BlueeyedBear@aol=2Ecom wrote: > i don't know=2E=2E=2E i've played some electronic organs that produce a= better=20 > sound than the 37-r pipe organ i have now=2E > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg >=20 >=20 >=20     --=20 =FFWPC=BF=04     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: RE: here we go, yet again From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:06:45 -0500   > > Right on bud! I wish more organists would refuse to play electrics. = Then > churches would have to get pipes or they wouldn't have an organist! It > always astounds me the number of organists (some very well educated) = who > are willing to lower themselves to the level of playing an electric. > > Andrew   Right, Andrew, so the people in those churches should not have talented musicians to lead their worship because they didn't buy a pipe organ? The CHURCH does not exist for the ORGAN...it's the other way around. They "LOWER" themselves to lead people in worship.   I personally thank God that there are those who see their ministry is more important than the instrument. Let's not forget that it's the Church who = is our primary employer.   *sigh*   Jeff    
(back) Subject: TAO article From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:02:26 -0400   Did anyone reads Sebastians article in this months TAO? It is very well-written and explains the very basics of organ building for those organists who don't have a lot of training in building=2E I suggest that everyone read it=2E Good job Sebastian!=2E   Andrew   -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:04:50 EDT   In a message dated 9/13/2003 12:57:45 AM Central Daylight Time, reedstop@charter.net writes: The CHURCH does not exist for the ORGAN... Lately, I have found myself questioning what it does exist for.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: RE: TAO article From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:17:04 -0500   I agree that there is a lot we can learn from our builders. In 1998, we replaced a non-AGO console with a new AGO, and I learned a LOT from just that experience alone! I think it not only helps us understand our instrument a little more, but gives us a way to help diagnose problems = that we can tell our maintenance guys other than "this just doesn't work."   For example, I have two pedal principal notes that sometimes refuse to = sound if I'm holding more than 2 keys down on the manuals. These pipes are = tubed off and are case pipes. The bulk of the organ is on slider chests, other than this rank, which is playable at 16 and 8. Turns out that the problem exists on both stops...same two pipes. Anyway, I was talking with a = builder friend in an informed conversation and he was able to conclude that there may be a low voltage problem with the magnet on this unit stop. At least that's a start to a solution! :)   Jeff     > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > ameagher@stny.rr.com > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:02 AM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: TAO article > > > Did anyone reads Sebastians article in this months TAO? It is very > well-written and explains the very basics of organ building for those > organists who don't have a lot of training in building. I suggest that > everyone read it. Good job Sebastian!. > > Andrew > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: RE: here we go, yet again From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:18:17 -0500   That's a whole different issue, unfortunately. Personally, I would answer that question by saying "grace through faith." But that's the Lutheran in me. :) Others may feel differently.   Jeff   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Gfc234@aol.com Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:05 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: here we go, yet again     In a message dated 9/13/2003 12:57:45 AM Central Daylight Time, reedstop@charter.net writes: The CHURCH does not exist for the ORGAN... Lately, I have found myself questioning what it does exist for.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:30:41 -0700   On 9/12/03 10:20 PM, ameagher@stny.rr.com said something about:   > It always astounds me the number of organists (some very well educated) = who > are willing to lower themselves to the level of playing an electric.   No offense, but some of us "well-educated organists" aren't arrogant = enough to look down our noses at some organs, but not at others. Some of us are simply happy to be able to serve using the talents God gave us, and take delight in the challenge of making any organ sound as good as it possibly can.    
(back) Subject: Make it sound GOOD. (Was: here we go, yet again) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:54:23 -0500   Eric said:   > Some of us are > simply happy to be able to serve using the talents God gave us, and take > delight in the challenge of making any organ sound as good as it = possibly > can.   This is what I was trying to say, although in my case, I go beyond just making the organ sound good. I also want the bell choir, the adult choir and the congregation to sound good too. However, I know there was a time where I didn't see that myself. When I was a teenager and just really getting started, I was helping out in my home parish, which has a really nice 31-rank Schlicker installed around 1976. I love that organ, even today! When we got a new music director, I remember asking her what she thought about the organ. She surprised me when she said that it wasn't an important factor in taking this call. I was amazed. I thought, "How can she not love this instrument?" That was just over 20 years ago.   I was humbled when I took my first "real" position, around the age of 22. This church had (has, actually) an 8-rank Wicks...unified up the wazoo. Wasn't too bad, really. This organ has a nice principal chorus, a really nice Erzahler and celeste. Only one reed, speaking in all divisions, no mixtures. I did not enjoy playing it, but that's not why I left after two years. I left because of the snide attitudes of choir members, their lack of interest in handbells, the fact that I worked 2 years with no raises, etc. But, I learned a lot and was prepared for my next position which lasted 10 years. (This organ was moved into the new sanctuary when they completed the building...terrible move. It needs to be revoiced.) = However, while there I did what I could to make it sound good. (I even got "it's = too loud", which is a miracle on that thing!) <GRIN>   Maybe some folks are in the "biz" for the love of playing a good = instrument. That's ok! My earlier response to Andrew (which I apologized for my tone = to him privately) was a reaction to what he said. I should realize just as much that not everyone thinks as I do about their musical offering to the church. I can respect that. I would just ask that what Eric and I are saying gets the same consideration. :)   By the way...for the record...I myself thoroughly enjoy the sound of a = good pipe organ, and play each week on a 27-rank Zimmer. I won't lie and say = that I wasn't thrilled to have a pipe organ that I'd be playing on. BUT, I = won't say that it is the major contributing factor to accepting the call to play there. Also, I could use a few more ranks (including the 3 prepared for), but until we can prioritize it and fundraise, that's not going to happen = any time soon. We're currently raising money for a new sign. <shrug>   With regards to all....   Jeff