PipeChat Digest #3959 - Saturday, September 13, 2003 Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: speaking of the toccata in d minor by "Bill" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care by "Eric McKirdy" <email@example.com> here we go, yet again by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care by "Stephen Best" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: seduced by a digital by "Nance, Daryel" <DNance@svdp-edu.org> RE: here we go, yet again by "Nance, Daryel" <DNance@svdp-edu.org> The Hot Topic by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> At Least there's one good reason for doing what we're doing..... by <ContraReed@aol.com> Addendum by "Eric McKirdy" <email@example.com> Out of the closet! by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: digital instruments by "John Foss" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:32:11 EDT In a message dated 9/13/2003 10:15:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > (1) Don't hide behind God. I doubt seriously that (S)He has an opinion > one way or the other. > > It's interesting how the pro-electronics crew always casts the > pro-pipe-organ crew as godless pagans because we have *musical* = STANDARDS. > > I personally resent the feeling that since I play an electronic i HAVE NO MUSICAL STANDARDS.... No one is claiming you are godless pagans because you, Bud, probably know more about liturgy and theology than the last 5 rectors you worked with. My first response to this fun thread was: if they can they should get a real organ----period. I am able to educate my little Lutheran church to "real organ Literature" because we have a 3 manual electronic upon which I can play almost = anything. They marvel at hymns, they love Dupre, they sigh at the Bach because it reminds = them of their up north church and its pipe organ, and they are shocked = when I accompany Handel with strings, harpsichord and pipe sounds. Oh yes, they = go bonkers when I play a concerto with the orchestra on disc and yours truly = doing the organ solo part live. This is so much fun and I love it that we can still be "friends" in the battle for good music and better worship. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: speaking of the toccata in d minor From: "Bill" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:04:38 -0500 It's EVERYwhere... even on cell phone ring tones. I attempted to program some OTHER Bach lines into mine, and it is a = CHORE... set the octave, set the note (or rest) length, set the note = itself.
(back) Subject: Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care From: "Eric McKirdy" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:41:02 -0700 On Saturday, September 13, 2003, at 07:18 AM, email@example.com wrote: > (1) Don't hide behind God. I doubt seriously that (S)He has an opinion > one way or the other... <snip> ...It's interesting how the > pro-electronics crew always casts the pro-pipe-organ crew as godless > pagans because we have *musical* STANDARDS. I don't think anyone has done this. Not one person here has said a pipe organ isn't preferable to an electronic organ. It's not a matter of being "pro-electronics." It's a matter of appreciating the talent to be able to play both instruments. Guess what? We all have standards, too. Know what my highest standard is? To play absolutely as well as I can for the enjoyment and edification of those unfortunate enough to be listening. Do you think any of them care what kind of organ is being played? Of course not. They just know they like what they like, and all of us attempt to deliver that every week. To have "musical STANDARDS" is perfectly fine. But when those standards become self-serving and utterly irrelevant to the nature of worship, they become pointless as well. > (5) As I said earlier, no OTHER serious musicians play an electronic > substitute. > I don't see Rostropovitch playing an electronic 'cello. Apples and oranges. Rostropovitch isn't a church musician, at the mercy of the kindness of parishioners to supply his salary. His living was/is made through the sale of concert tickets, and maybe through the revenues of a CD or two. (Certainly more than he would have made had he remained in Russia since 1974.) He can afford any cello he wants, because he chose a more lucrative career path -- a path that didn't lead through church gigs. We all choose what we choose, and then we live with the consequences. Any church organist who feels bitterness over low salary, miserable benefits, poor instrument, etc has only himself or herself to blame. The church offers whatever it feels is appropriate. If you don't like it, then go somewhere else. The point being made by many of us is still this: no church owes us anything. It's a privilege to be able to play the organ at all -- not a right. Not a guarantee. If you want to be treated like a king, instead of wanting to treat God like a king, then you need a different career path. > If you want to see the pipe organ go EXTINCT, then keep right on > shilling for your electronics and making excuses about why you're not > willing to put out the EFFORT to EDUCATE people. Come on, Bud. Let's stick to the facts. The pipe organ isn't going extinct. The only "shilling for electronics" here has been in support of them to the point that they are simply all the church can afford. Have you read the other contributions so far to this topic? Would you really look Victoria in the eye and tell her that paint really doesn't matter, and they ought to raise money for a pipe organ instead? Can you really tell any of us that we're out of line for wanting to simply be of service, as Jeff White so eloquently explained better than I? Is it so wrong to find a delightful challenge to make an electronic organ sound good, in the absence of a pipe organ? No. It is not. And to Alan Meagher, I would say this -- it's ironic, but all of my "well-educated" organ background is what prepared me to be able to make electronic organs sound pretty darn good. Along with education comes a lot of wisdom, too. Or at least, it should. Friends, when we start getting into sentiments of "The church owes me X," or "I DESERVE Y," we have suddenly missed the point entirely about why we go to church every week in the first place. Eric -- I think that's quite enough for today
(back) Subject: here we go, yet again From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:40:37 -0500 (CDT) I've played many small organs, especially 19th century ones, that handle church music and repertoire of all periods because of the beauty of the sound, and because they made sense in the room they were placed. There are indeed churches that simply do not have space for pipes or the money. However, too often, I have seen large electronic specifications in small spaces because of organist fanatasies, and the money spent could have bought a decent used pipe organ, or even a smaller but better grade of electronic. I'm afraid that too many bad organs exist because organists don't know the difference. For me, a bigger issue is theological. How "genuine" or real are the objects we use in worship? And then how "real" are our acts of worship? If a church can't afford marble, should they use a fake look alike for lets say the altar? Why not use a material that they can afford yet is noble and genuine. And in regards to my own worship, I often have to ask myself if the choir can present and appreciate a work, or are we doing it just to suit my taste? Admittedly, sometimes the answer is yes. I believe there are too many bad organs and choirs not because congregations "give it their best", but because inflated egos or uniformed people are in the mix.
(back) Subject: Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care From: "Stephen Best" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:48:01 -0400 I'm not an electronic fan, nor would I wish to play one long term. But reality for the vast majority of churches in this area of NY State is that ANY organ that costs more than about $12,000 to $15,000 is going to be unaffordable. Even THAT amount is going to be a HUGE stretch! How many small pipe organs can be purchased and installed (even if relocated) for that price? We've got just one organist position in the area that's full time and pays appropriately; we've got dozens of churches which can't afford a full time pastor and struggle to pay the heat bill. For these churches, the electronic organ has been a Godsend -- it's either that or a beat up piano or a cheap keyboard. You can educate all you want -- but when the money isn't there, it isn't there. I suppose a good argument could be made in favor of purchasing a Rolls Royce instead of a Ford or a Chevrolet...but I don't see a lot of those in our area! Not many Mercedes Benz's either. Steve Best in Utica, NY email@example.com wrote: > > If you want to see the pipe organ go EXTINCT, then keep right on > shilling for your electronics and making excuses about why you're not > willing to put out the EFFORT to EDUCATE people.
(back) Subject: RE: seduced by a digital From: "Nance, Daryel" <DNance@svdp-edu.org> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:50:13 -0500 Hi James, I just sent the following post to someone a few days ago about the Protege line, which is just a smaller package of exactly the same sound engine. >Amazing little instrument - by day I play a 3m/54r Rieger - by night (at home) I have an Allen >C6 Protege ..pawned my kids and dog to buy it (GRIN). There's not a stop on the instrument >that's not well integrated into the concept ...all are quite well done. And the console >cabinetry is as well (or better) built than some pipe consoles, = ..keyboards are real. The only >weak point may the be the installation and speaker compliment that was purchased. When you plug >the organ's output into an Allen installed haedphone jack, using studio quality headphones, the >sound is very satisfying, quite remarkable. Some speaker installs and rooms, however, = can have >less satisfying results. The instrument can be altered tonally = quite a bit in the hands of a >knowledgeable tech, armed with a laptop, ...but the company defaults are well thought out coming >out of the crate. > >What's the old addage, "...no one has ever lost a job in recommending an Allen." (GRIN) >Peace and good luck, >Daryel > ....anyway, it is pretty remarkable. But, one of the most important items = is, no matter how great it sounds, if its not extreamly dependable, you're = still back to square one. And they're one of the few survivors who have gone = way out of the way to be able to support old hardware. Peace, Daryel Daryel Nance St.Vincent de Paul Church, Houston mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org www.svmusic.info ; www.dompaulbenoit.com ; www.church-organist.com ; www.daryeln.com "...the only ones among you who will really be happy are those who sought and found how to serve." Albert Schwietzer -----Original Message----- From: james nerstheimer [mailto:email@example.com] Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 4:06 PM To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: seduced by a digital I find myself these days utterly enchanted and yea, even seduced by a wonderful Allen I played last weekend. Bethlehem Lutheran church in = DeKalb recently installed a new 3-manual Renaissance that is nothing short of stunning. It's giving me some ideas for my own church which already has = 37 ranks. I must admit that Allen's reeds, individually and in choruses, = were the most convincing I have ever heard come from a digital source. Sombody = finally seems to have gotten all the clatter and buzz right. I have been dying for years to have a complete 16-8-4 reed chorus in my Swell. The = 8-4 we have now would make a lovely Trompeta Real and Bajoncillio. I'd put = the digital reeds in the swellbox and mount the 8-4 horizontally atop the = case. Anyone in the area is welcome to drop by and see this instrument. I'd = like some input. I'm convinced it's a diamond in the rough. jim O):^) _________________________________________________________________ "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:email@example.com Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com
(back) Subject: RE: here we go, yet again From: "Nance, Daryel" <DNance@svdp-edu.org> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:56:21 -0500 Gregory, re: "A good organist can make 2 ranks sound the most wonderful music in = the world. Once the music is happening, enhance it with however many ranks = you have." True!!! .....this is one of the most profound observations that has come across the discussion group. I once had the priviledge of "blowing away" my organ professor at NTSU by playing the Bach little G minor on a solitary 8' Gedackt. When I turned around, he was sitting on the floor uttering "...it works!" Peace and blessings, Daryel Daryel Nance St.Vincent de Paul Church, Houston mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com> www.svmusic.info ; www.dompaulbenoit.com ; www.church-organist.com ; www.daryeln.com "...the only ones among you who will really be happy are those who sought and found how to serve." Albert Schwietzer -----Original Message----- From: Gfc234@aol.com [mailto:Gfc234@aol.com] Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:19 PM To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: here we go, yet again It is a shame that people use stops and ranks to "make" music. Now I = don't know about you guys, but I call that playing around with registrations A good organist can make 2 ranks sound the most wonderful music in the = world. Once the music is happening, enhance it with however many ranks you have. Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile email@example.com <http://firstname.lastname@example.org/>
(back) Subject: The Hot Topic From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:11:17 -0400 Hi all, I've been following the debate here for the last few days, first of = all thanks for the kind words! I am very thrilled to be working in the organ field! (C: I too am amazed by the tremendous breadth of knowledge and artistry = that great voicers posess. There have been times that I have had to adjust regulators and toes for misbehaving pipes (under direction of course) and = I was totally surprised by how even the largest, say Bourdon 16' pipes are = so incredibly sensitive to regulation at the toe. Knowing this the fact that = a voicer creates ranks of pipes with matching timbre, speech, and volume is amazing, not to mention blending a total ensemble with harmonic supporting stops and such. I am a softy for string pipes in particular, I usually = pop the Celestes and Erzahlers out first when I visit a new organ! Too bad I don't have a huge house I'd snag that monster Kimball 4m from the Organ Clearing House!!! (j/k) At any rate, since a new organ is such a huge investment, it seems to = me that perhaps relocating a small instrument from a praise church that = doesn't need it to a church that would like it but couldn't afford one might be a good way to compromise. It would pay good dividends, music for the = church, job for an organist, tunings for a maintenance company. Perhaps the more organs are used in churches that want them the more interest would be sustained in them. = -Nate "The Apprentice"
(back) Subject: At Least there's one good reason for doing what we're doing..... From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:16:36 EDT Musicians' brains hit the right note ITV.com 11 Sep 2003 Playing an instrument can go straight to a musician's head, as practice and performance prevents a vital part of the brain shrinking with age. Musicians in a major British symphony orchestra were found to have an average of 15 per cent more grey matter in the brain region than non-musicians. The part of the brain involved, called Broca's area, deals with memory, language processing and organisation. In most people, it loses volume as they get older. But the study found this did not happen as much in the musicians, whose ages ranged from 26 to 66. Scientists cannot say whether this means playing music might protect a person from age-related diseases such as Alzheimer's. Dr Vanessa Sluming, who helped carry out the research at Liverpool University, said: "Obviously one might perhaps assume that it's beneficial to retain grey matter rather than lose it." In those musicians under 50 years old, brain volume was higher than it was in non-musicians. It was also associated with the number of years the musician had been playing. Dr Sluming continued: "There was increased grey matter volume in a musically significant area. "Studies in non-musical populations have indicated significant grey matter reduction with age." -- The opinions expressed in these postings on Orchestra-L do not necessarily reflect the opinion or policies of ICSOM or the Governing Board. Any comments or complaints about an Orchestra-L posting should be addressed to ICSOM president Brian Rood at BRood661@aol.com.
(back) Subject: Addendum From: "Eric McKirdy" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:29:20 -0700 Toward the end of my last email, the person referenced should be "Andrew Meagher," not "Alan Meagher." Eric -- although Alan Meagher is certainly welcome to read it, too
(back) Subject: Out of the closet! From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:54:58 -0700 OK, y'all force me to come out. I AM a PROFESSIONAL CHURCH MUSICIAN who DOES expect the Church to provide the following for me, IF they want my services ... >AS A PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN< >WITH A CONSERVATORY DEGREE< >WHO EARNS HIS LIVING DOING CHURCH MUSIC< Please re-read the above a couple of times if you didn't grasp the meaning the first time around. (1) A living wage, based on my education, experience, and skill, and the cost of living in the area (2) Medical, dental, and optical insurance, paid by the CHURCH, NOT by me (3) A retirement plan that will allow me to live in something other than a refrigerator box on Skid Row when I retire (4) An office with a computer and a SECRETARY (5) A decent PIPE ORGAN (6) A choir that can SING and READ MUSIC, in which at least three singers on each part are present every Sunday (7) a clergy-person with an IQ *exceeding* that of pond-scum, who can (a) assemble a declarative sentence (b) preach a 10-minute sermon and make his/her point (c) carry a tune, if the liturgy requires it (d) isn't threatened by another PROFESSIONAL on staff (e) TREATS me as a professional (f) didn't major in Ignorance and minor in Arrogance in seminary I'm not PRIMARILY in church music because of God, or my faith, or anything else; I happen to LIKE church music; I CHOOSE to make my LIVING doing church music; that does NOT, I repeat does NOT absolve the Church of competing in the larger marketplace for my skills. Nor does it absolve the Church of adhering to the values of social justice and a just wage that they trumpet from the pulpit on behalf of just about everybody BUT their OWN employees. And, no, I don't the quality of praise from my choir loft was any LESS acceptable to God than that of those who choose to give their skills away. Have I ever HAD all of that? Yeah, ONCE, in fifty years. And they fired me for having a heart attack at a time "inconvenient" to the Rector. I wash my hands of the whole business. I can make a better living staying home and doing music engraving. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: digital instruments From: "John Foss" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 18:54:34 +0100 (BST) Dear list, Not so long ago I was having dinner with concert pianist Philip Fowke. Philip may not be known to many list members, but, "he is respected and admired worldwide as one of Britain's most distinguished pianists. His frequent appearances and broadcasts with leading orchestras in the UK and his many recordings also see him performing abroad where he has recently toured in the USA, Canada Scandinavia, South America, Germany, Italy and New Zealand. His outstanding musicianship is reflected by many of the conductors he has worked with who include Vladimir Ashkenazy, Neeme Jarvi, Tadaaki Otaka, Sir Simon Rattle, Gennadi Rozhdestvensky, Yuri Temirkanov, Klaus Tennstedt, Vernon Handley and Barry Wordsworth." He has also made several records for EMI and so on, and was advisor on the choice of pianos for London's Royal Festival Hall. I say this merely to suggest that he is something of an authority on the subject of pianos - he has two Steinways in his living room cum studio, where at one time he also had a two manual electronic organ - it had drawstops, though I forget the make. I scoffed at electronic pianos - however Philip said I was wrong, and that modern technology had resulted in first class "imitations". He has given recitals for Yamaha on their electronic pianos. I bought a Yamaha on the strength of our discussion - it is not a top of the range model, but it is very good. My music school has a Kawai grand piano, and, at the end of the day, I admit it is ultimately more satisfying, but to dismiss electronic pianos out of hand and say no concert pianist plays them is not correct. John Foss =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : With the compliments of Adolf Hitler ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk