PipeChat Digest #3960 - Saturday, September 13, 2003 Re: here we go, yet again by "leora holcomb" <email@example.com> Re: Funeral Parlor organs revisited by <RonSeverin@aol.com> RE: here we go, yet again by "Nance, Daryel" <DNance@svdp-edu.org> Two ranks, heck! by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: here we go, yet again by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re: here we go, yet again by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: some further points, and no, I'm NOT going to give up (chuckle) by <Gfc234@aol.com> Re: speaking of the toccata in d minor by <Gfc234@aol.com> Re: Two ranks, and perfect by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: here we go, yet again by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Central Lutheran, Eugene, OR by "Sand Lawn" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: digital instruments by "Bill" <email@example.com> Re: Out of the closet! by "Bob Conway" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Two ranks, heck! by <Icedad@aol.com> Re: here we go, yet again XXXIV by "Bill" <email@example.com> Re: Central Lutheran, Eugene, OR by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: here we go, yet again by "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Re: digital instruments by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: here we go, yet again by <Gfc234@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: "leora holcomb" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Terry, I agree with everything you have said. In all of my 52 years "on = the bench" in several churches, I feel that a church should get what they = need for their type of service and the best they can afford, whether it be = pipe or electronic. I have seen organs that accommodated the services of a = church up for trashing and something much too large and expensive = considered because of the organist's desires. What really matters is that = the services are for the Glory of God, and not the organist or choir = director or the ego of anyone connected with the church. I am all for the = furthering of organ music in the churches and much organ repertoire can be = successfully performed on an electronic organ that the church can afford, = rather than the church not having any organ because they cannot afford a = pipe organ, or just using a piano and keyboard. This thread has come up = so often and there is no answer except that an electronic organ is not a = pipe organ and won't sound like it, no matter how many samplings are used. Only a pipe organ sounds like a pipe organ. = Granted, some electronic organs sound very good when a good organist = plays organ repertoire, but it is still not a pipe organ. I have also = heard some poor organists make a pipe organ sound worse than any = electronic organ.The "machine behind the instrument" makes the difference, = as my High School band director used to say when someone would complain = about their instrument. Here in the Dallas/FT. Worth/Denton area we have = many occasions to hear organ recitals on various instruments. This is = really a treat for me, having not had the opportunity to attend many = recitals over the past few years. We've been to 3 concerts the past week = and have 2 to attend next week. My health is still very poor, but = attending concerts is a real emotional boost. I would rather hear a good = organist play an electronic organ than a poor organist attempt a recital = on a pipe organ. Lee terry hicks <Terrick@webtv.net> wrote:I've played many small organs, = especially 19th century ones, that handle church music and repertoire of all periods because of the beauty of the sound, and because they made sense in the room they were placed. There are indeed churches that simply do not have space for pipes or the money. However, too often, I have seen large electronic specifications in small spaces because of organist fanatasies, and the money spent could have bought a decent used pipe organ, or even a smaller but better grade of electronic. I'm afraid that too many bad organs exist because organists don't know the difference. For me, a bigger issue is theological. How "genuine" or real are the objects we use in worship? And then how "real" are our acts of worship? If a church can't afford marble, should they use a fake look alike for lets say the altar? Why not use a material that they can afford yet is noble and genuine. And in regards to my own worship, I often have to ask myself if the choir can present and appreciate a work, or are we doing it just to suit my taste? Admittedly, sometimes the answer is yes. I believe there are too many bad organs and choirs not because congregations "give it their best", but because inflated egos or uniformed people are in the mix. "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Administration: mailto:email@example.com Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
(back) Subject: Re: Funeral Parlor organs revisited From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:05:21 EDT It seems that large funery organizations are more conscious of their bottom line, and their bonuses, than they are in providing pipe organs for services. There are very few exceptions, but one being Sky Rose Chapel, Rose Hills, Whittier, CA. they installed a four manual 65 rank pipe organ by Quimby. Other big organizations in the LA area have let the organs they have fall into disrepair and are making do with old out dated beat up electronic home organs, and cheap keyboards. The independants which are few and far between now are being gobbled up by huge funeral corporations. Monty a list member seems to be one of the few holding on, and providing a pipe organ for a chapel service. The rest are using canned tapes, and shall we say it getting away with murder. One funeral director I talked to lamented that most musicians that play funerals, don't know how to turn the organ on, even a Hammond, let alone the start switch on a pipe organ. The other lament is that some of these people break things because they don't know anything about organs but play with piano technique. Many times they don't play all that well either. It's probably the reason stipends are in the neighborhood of $25 to$75 dollars. Because of this, they see no viable reason to keep top notch equipment and instruments. On top of that, organists who are called to play experience slow or no pay for their efforts. I've had an associate complain about that kind of treatment from a huge cemetary firm in LA and Orange Co. Somewhere in lies the truth! I failed to mention the name of the "other" company on purpose, but I think most can figure it out. Ron Severin
(back) Subject: RE: here we go, yet again From: "Nance, Daryel" <DNance@svdp-edu.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:08:46 -0500 Kind of as a corallary to Arie's post... Ehxibit "A" : ..just for example, expensive toys require that you need to = be in a position of not having to ask "how much is this going to cost?" I have cared for one Rieger (1974) for about 27 years (sounds like a relationship - GRIN). It is valued now at probably $750,000 (maybe plus). It has 34 stops/3m/54r (20r of which are in mixtures/compound stops) Over the last 27 years there has probably been $50,000 of non-upgrade, maintenance, by one of the most competent builders available (..not Rieger). For the most part this doesn't include the ongoing regular tunings. Pipe organs also do require tender loving ecclectic (..put on your = glasses, that's not electric, GRIN) care. Peace and blessings, D. Daryel Nance St.Vincent de Paul Church, Houston mailto:email@example.com www.svmusic.info ; www.dompaulbenoit.com ; www.church-organist.com ; www.daryeln.com "...the only ones among you who will really be happy are those who sought and found how to serve." Albert Schwietzer -----Original Message----- From: Arie Vandenberg [mailto:ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com] Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:10 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: here we go, yet again At 03:58 PM 2003-09-12 -0500, you wrote: >Jeff White wrote, in part: > > > Bud I'm not disputing your first sentence, but I will ask > > this question: why would I want just three ranks per > > division on a affordable pipe organ when I could have 75 > > "ranks" on an electronic for the same price (in THEORY)? > >leading me to propose that we reframe the question to "Do you go for >quality and durability" on the one hand, or size and sizzle on the >other?". > >Consider this. You have some money to use to buy furniture. Is it a >better use of your money, to buy a well made table, and couple chair, >which with proper care will last for generations, on the one had, or on >the other hand to buy a whole set of living room furniture, constructed = to >standards that are not nearly as high, which will wear out in a few = years, >be unable to be repaired, and have to be completely replaced. If you >purchased the table and chairs the first time, with the money you would >use to replace the first set, you can instead purchase a couple of more >pieces of high quality furniture, and have more than you had before, >instead of just replacing what you had, and having spent the twice the >money to have the same thing. > >Electronic instruments are designed neither to be easily upgraded, nor to >have infinite lives, and when they fail, you may not be able to get the >parts to repair them, meaning you have to replace the whole thing. Pipe >organs are designed in a manner that repair is possible, and with care, >will last indefinitely. And if you plan ahead, you can then use the = money >you would have used to purchase a new electronic to enlarge the pipe = organ >you already have. > >To me, the question comes down to one of stewardship. > >ns Noel, I hope that you do not mean by stewardship, just dollars and cents, = because a pipe organ is going to cost more even if one buys an electronic and replaces it every 20 or 25 years. Here are my thoughts, 1) If a church or individual wants to buy a pipe organ they will. Generally the cost factor is irrelevant. Pipe organs cost = multiples more than electronic organs 2) if as you say a church is in possession of a pipe organ, and they want = to keep it in good use, that means tuning, and a certain amount of maintenance, that costs money. One could argue that, that same amount of money that is spent on pipe organ maintenance, could also be put in some investment account, and be used for the maintenance of an electronic = organ, and if not used, could in large measure buy a new electronic organ in 20 = or 25 years. 3) It is understood that electronic organs have finite life-spans. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I would say that a great number of pipe organs would also have limited life-spans, if it wasn't for = re-building, restoring, enlarging etc. And that doesn't come for free, at = least not the last time I checked. 4) Also, and I think pipe organ builders should be careful about how they = approach this, sometimes churches have pipe organs, and the tuners/maintenance company is asked about certain things concerning the organ, especially when the pipe organ is just "musical junk", the church = is told they should trash the organ, and buy a new pipe organ. There are a lot of these mediocre beasts around Ontario here, and the church that owns = them is in no situation to buy a new pipe organ financially. Quite often it is these churches that buy electronic organs, because they have paid = out so much in maintenance over the years, the tone of the instrument is terrible, that they don't want that to happen again. In other words, having a bad pipe organ can be a good start to acquiring an electronic. I do agree that a pipe organ is preferrable, but it shouldn't be a dollars = and cents issue. It should be viewed from the point of view of musical satisfaction, longevity, etc. Arie V. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263 "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Administration: mailto:email@example.com Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Two ranks, heck! From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:30:54 -0500 Hey, I know a Lutheran church that had a highly regarded ONE rank unit organ--gedeckt, 1 manual and pedal, by a builder some of you make fun of. The church--and community--loved it. People used to schedule weddings there just because of the organ--yes, really! It was replaced ONLY because the church was greatly expanding their sanctuary. Dennis Steckley ________________________- From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:26:32 +0800 TWO ranks, Gregory?? You have got to be kidding!! Bob Elms.
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:52:17 -0400 On 9/12/03 11:43 PM, "Jeff White" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Of course, I came off of playing a 34-rank Romantic organ...down to a 27 = rank > baroque. On balance, and all other things being equal (which, of course, they are not), which one would you prefer to stick with for the next ten years? (Maybe there is NOT a possible answer. I hope I don't have a preconceived answer!) Alan
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:58:23 -0400 On 9/13/03 1:46 AM, "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> wrote: > I have played a few of Brombaughs intruments and they are fine speciemns = of > organ buuilding. Is anyone acquainted with his instrument in Central Lutheran Church, = Eugene, Oregon? Must have a single-digit opus number; I saw it in 1961. I have a delightful CD of it, and would be interested in any comments. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: some further points, and no, I'm NOT going to give up (chuckle) From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:09:54 EDT In a message dated 9/13/2003 7:30:45 AM Central Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: How many serious classical pianists play digital pianos in >concert? > I think the real question should be: How many pianists can get away with holding church jobs on the organ with out ever touching a pedal, making = one finger substitution, or playing one piece of literature. The answer to = one of these questions is the bass coupler that Allen puts on its organs. Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile email@example.com
(back) Subject: Re: speaking of the toccata in d minor From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:11:31 EDT In a message dated 9/13/2003 11:04:31 AM Central Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: It's EVERYwhere... even on cell phone ring tones. but the fugue subject is ALWAYS in the wrong key Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile email@example.com
(back) Subject: Re: Two ranks, and perfect From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:19:14 EDT Ladies and Gentlemen: When I was in graduate school, I used two practice organs: a IV/94 = 1938 Harrison (with very minor alterations by Joseph Whiteford in 1964) Aeolian-Skinner in a spectacularly resonant Renaissance chapel, and a = two-rank, two-manual Casavant unit organ designed by Lawrence Phelps, in the = clinically dead acoustic of a practice room. That little Phelps Casavant is responsible for my greatest surge of note-learning and musically critical listening up until that time. It was = so thoughtfully designed and scaled, and so perfectly finished, that I could = practice on it as much as fourteen hours a day when I had the opportunity. When = time permitted, I only turned the organ off when I smelled the blower). It was way back then that I realized that such small instruments could = give individuals the same opportunity as conservatories and small chapels, = if only these organs were properly designed and scaled, avoided pitch = duplication and the "missing note" syndrome, and were artistically executed. I was = inspired by the work of other builders such as Schlicker, and yes, Wicks remains = the inspiration for the 16' free reed string bass to which I referred in a = previous post. (I will cover the design and construction of that in a separate = post, since so many private emails have been asking about that; ignore that post = if it bores you). The specifications of the little practice organ (which was not = provided with couplers, deliberately) were as follows: MANUAL I 8' Gemshorn 4' Chimney Flute 2' Gemshorn MANUAL II 8' Chimney Flute 4' Gemshorn 2' Chimney Flute PEDAL 16' Subbass 8' Gemshorn Resources: 16' Chimney Flute [97 pipes] 1-12 wood 8' Gemshorn [85 pipes] Sebastian M. Gluck New York
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:22:37 -0400 On 9/13/03 2:08 PM, "Nance, Daryel" <DNance@svdp-edu.org> wrote: > ecclectic (..put on your glasses, that's not electric, GRIN) care. True; it's not. But then what IS it? (Sounds like "perpetual care.") Alan
(back) Subject: Central Lutheran, Eugene, OR From: "Sand Lawn" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:28:52 -0500 Alan, the Brombaugh in Central Lutheran, Eugene, OR is opus # 19..... Sand
(back) Subject: Re: digital instruments From: "Bill" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:28:24 -0500 Digital organ companies pay artists to concertize on their instruments. = Sometimes these recitals are more commercial than artistic ("Watch what = this thing can DO!"), and may even include selections played on the pipe = organ beside their instrument as well. If you ask their opinion on digital instruments, you will get a = predictable reply. All things being equal, I wonder how many of them would choose to = perform on a digital instrument if they weren't receiving a fee = specifically to do so. I don't suppose we will know. Digital organs aren't meant to be a replacement for the pipe organ, any = more than paper plates are meant to replace china. One can see an = advantage to one organ type or the other (or both) in any specific = situation---unless your blinders have been properly fitted. As the organ is the largest (and most expensive) musical instrument, = there are times when compromise is in order. I don't suppose there is as = much need for digital cellos, oboes or even pianos as there is for = digital organs, because the aforementioned instruments do not benefit as = much (in price and size) as does the organ, when it comes to = electrifying them. Really, the organ---in all its forms---is asked to do so much more than = any other single musical instrument. It's a big tent, this subject of = organs, under which there is plenty of room. "If there is not a large pipe organ and good Lutheran coffee in heaven, I shall not want to go."
(back) Subject: Re: Out of the closet! From: "Bob Conway" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:28:27 -0400 Bud, 'et al', What Bud is saying is all well and good for a Cathedral Organist and Choirmaster, but bears little realtionship to an ordinary Parish Church, where the need for a highly qualified Church musician is not really there. I have dealt with Bud's points as he writes them, with no disregard for Bud, who has been put through the mill in the recent past! At 10:54 AM 9/13/03 -0700, Bud wrote: >(1) A living wage, based on my education, experience, and skill, and the >cost of living in the area That is assuming that the post is full time, many are not. In fact. in my = experience most are very much part time. >(2) Medical, dental, and optical insurance, paid by the CHURCH, NOT by = me The same thing applies here. If you are full time, it should be written = in the contract, but it wouldn't do for a part time job. >(3) A retirement plan that will allow me to live in something other than = a >refrigerator box on Skid Row when I retire It might be that this could be done, but the organist would have to pay into the scheme, I doubt that many one night practice and Sunday Service Organists would qualify. >(4) An office with a computer and a SECRETARY Why? If the Organist is just that, "The Organist", he/she doesn't really need an office, computer or a Secretary. He/she needs an organ, to play, and a space for Choir practice. >(5) A decent PIPE ORGAN If they can afford it, - but this has been looked at in many other threads = on this list. >(6) A choir that can SING and READ MUSIC, in which at least three singers = >on each part are present every Sunday That's wishful thinking, - of course we would all like that, - but you = work with what you have, and if you are easy to work with, others are likely to = join the choir. >(7) a clergy-person with an IQ *exceeding* that of pond-scum, who can > > (a) assemble a declarative sentence > (b) preach a 10-minute sermon and make his/her point > (c) carry a tune, if the liturgy requires it > (d) isn't threatened by another PROFESSIONAL on staff > (e) TREATS me as a professional > (f) didn't major in Ignorance and minor in Arrogance in seminar That's one that we would all agree with, - but where are these loving, kind, souls? It's just that some are better than others! >I'm not PRIMARILY in church music because of God, or my faith, or = anything >else; I happen to LIKE church music; I CHOOSE to make my LIVING doing >church music; that does NOT, I repeat does NOT absolve the Church of >competing in the larger marketplace for my skills. Nor does it absolve = the >Church of adhering to the values of social justice and a just wage that >they trumpet from the pulpit on behalf of just about everybody BUT their >OWN employees. Bud, I say to you what I always taught my students, - "If you can't stand the heat, - Get out of the kitchen." Find something better. >And, no, I don't the quality of praise from my choir loft was any LESS >acceptable to God than that of those who choose to give their skills = away. That may be true, but I think that many "Professional Choir members" are = in it for the money, - in a lot of cases. >Have I ever HAD all of that? Yeah, ONCE, in fifty years. And they fired = me >for having a heart attack at a time "inconvenient" to the Rector. I hear that, but you were expecting it, weren't you? >I wash my hands of the whole business. I can make a better living staying = >home and doing music engraving. Good luck in your new career, it may be the very thing for you. Bob Conway,
(back) Subject: Re: Two ranks, heck! From: <Icedad@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:31:02 EDT Dennis, When I had my first church job as organist at my home parish, St. = Pius V Catholic Church, McKeesport Pa. I played an Estey Organ which included 4 ranks of pipes with extensions. I was sometimes told by older parishioners = that I was TOO loud. Go figure. The building holds about 500 people. Swell Gedackt 16' Gedackt 8' Salicional 8' Flute Gedackt 4' Salicet 2' Great Principal 8' Octave 4' Super Octave 2' Pedal Bourdon 16' Principal 8' Swell to Great Swell to Pedal Great to Pedal It was a great little organ to play and practice on. I still have registrations from this organ on some of my OLD music. LOL I played from = age 12 until I left for college. According to my parents the organ was enlarged and = rebuilt a few years back to include: Oboe 8', Mixture IV, Trumpet 8'. Its not = always the size of the instrument nor the number of ranks which makes a great = sound, but also the room, registration and organist. I have heard organists play large instruments LOUD LOUD until you could scream. Pipes are pipes and appreciate the fact of the matter. Well, off to my Vigil Mass to play my = awesome sounding Rieger-Kloss. Cheers, Daniel
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again XXXIV From: "Bill" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:33:38 -0500 Alan Freed wrote: >>...Sounds like "perpetual care." >>Alan Cradle to the nave?
(back) Subject: Re: Central Lutheran, Eugene, OR From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:38:03 -0400 On 9/13/03 3:28 PM, "Sand Lawn" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Alan, the Brombaugh in Central Lutheran, Eugene, OR is opus # 19..... Just dawned on me that I should have looked at my CD; the liner notes probably would have told me. Thank you! Alan
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:42:11 -0500 Myosotis51@aol.com wrote: > > the Gospel music tradition does not mesh well with a traditional > pipe organ anyway, This is often true, but the theatre pipe organ generally works very well in this tradition, and in churches where this would be liturgically desirable it is possible to get round the problem by including some aspects of the theatre organ in a church organ. There is an old Wurlitzer church organ built rather along these lines in an African-American Methodist congregation in Kansas City, and it has been working very for them in their worship for around eighty years now. Pipe organs (and I suppose for that matter electronics) should always be tailored to the liturgical needs of a particular church. From that point of view an organ built for an Episcopal Church ought to be quite different from one built for a Lutheran Church and different again from one for a Baptist Church or an AME church. John speller
(back) Subject: Re: digital instruments From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:41:51 -0400 On 9/13/03 3:28 PM, "Bill" <email@example.com> wrote: > "If there is not a large pipe organ and good > Lutheran coffee in heaven, I shall not want to go." I=B9m reasonably assured of the one, but not QUITE as certain of the other. Alan (with Brazil so FAR from Sweden, how come Sweden has the best coffee?)=
(back) Subject: Re: here we go, yet again From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:44:32 EDT One cheap and easy way to get the theater organ sound out of a classical organ is to have all the trems easily adjustable from the console. Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile firstname.lastname@example.org