PipeChat Digest #3965 - Sunday, September 14, 2003 Small organs by <Rscottcopeland@aol.com> Re: digital instruments by <Rscottcopeland@aol.com> Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care by "bobelms" <email@example.com> Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care by "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: digital instruments by "bobelms" <email@example.com> Digital thread consolidation by "Charles Peery" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Several Comments - Re: Digital thread consolidation by "Administrator" <email@example.com> RE: Out of the closet! by "Mark L. Hopper" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: some further points, and no, I'm NOT going to give up (chuckle) by "Mickey Sadler" <email@example.com> Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief by <Myosotis51@aol.com> Re: speaking of the toccata in d minor by <Myosotis51@aol.com> Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> mIRC by "Glenda" <email@example.com> RE: Question for PipeChat People by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: digital instruments by "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: mIRC by "Administrator" <firstname.lastname@example.org> More on Trinity Church by "Administrator" <email@example.com> Volunteers by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Another camp heard from... by "noel jones" <email@example.com> What Makes an Organ so Expensive? by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: At Least there's one good reason for doing what we're doing..... by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <email@example.com> Re: Question re: 8 little preludes and fugues by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Small organs From: <Rscottcopeland@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:07:00 EDT I'm greatly encouraged that the pipe vs digital debate hasn't yet got to = the usual slanging match which it usually does but I will throw this into the ring, for what it's worth. There is an excellent little organ near me with = the following specification: Great Organ Open Diapason 8 Gedackt 8 Salicional 8 Principal 4 Leiblich Flote 4 Nazard 2-2/3 Flautino 2 Fifteenth 2 Swell Organ Contra Salicional (CCC) 16 Gedackt 8 Salicional 8 Salicet 4 Twelfth 2-2/3 Salicetina 2 Grave Mixture (19.22) Double Trumpet 16 Trumpet 8 Clarion 4 Pedal Organ Sub Bass (Metal) 16 Salicional 16 Octave 8 Bass Flute 8 Salicet 8 Octave Flute 4 Trombone 16 Usual Three Couplers Now - there is nothing that in all honesty which can't be played on this organ. The Diapason and the Flute are enclosed in one chamber, and the = string and the trumpet in the other. There are only four ranks of pipes but the organ = sounds fantastic. How much would this cost to build today? Richard Scott-Copeland
(back) Subject: Re: digital instruments From: <Rscottcopeland@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:14:44 EDT Are digital instruments a bad thing? I use a Yamaha P120 digital piano because my bechstein won't go in my = Citroen C3 - and I can lift it on my own, and, as a professional organist, accompanist and pianist, I can go out and earn money without a huge van, = and 2 roadies to lift the damn keyboard. It can be set up with its own Peavey PA on = wheels to accompany choirs, and fill a modererate sized hall in ten minutes flat. I could not earn my living without one! For organ work, I have a Rogers Portable organ, (C180) which, through the same PA can fill a 700 seat church, and goes in a small hatchback!
(back) Subject: Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:49:41 +0800 Are you QUITE sure of that? I have CDs of some of the top organists in the UK playing very good sounding large electronic organs which have been installed as second instruments (sometimes choir organs) in some Cathedrals and Churches(Chapels). It is easy to make a claim that top organists don't play them but much easier to disprove that statement. The evidence is there on CD. I suggest some of the anti electronic brigade open the other eye. You may see the other side of the coin!! Bob Elms. - >> (5) As I said earlier, no OTHER serious musicians play an >electronic >> substitute. >Eric -- I think that's quite enough for today Amen! Bob.
(back) Subject: Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:52:57 +0800 Yes , and I have a vinyl here of E. Power Biggs playing an Allen way back when the Allen did not sound much like a pipe organ. Bob Elms. ---- Original Message ---- From: firstname.lastname@example.org To: email@example.com Subject: Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:22:36 -0700 >uhhh... > >Bad example > >Seem to remember Naji HAKIM playing >the Allen Cavaille-Coll clone at AGO National in Seattle... > >Might wanna check them facts > >
(back) Subject: RE: digital instruments From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:57:52 +0800 Jeff, the last three of your posts have come through here with ATTACHMENT:Unknown.unk ****kb. Something nasty appears to be going on, but it may be one of those worms using someon's address book. Anyway we did not get to read those posts. Bob. ---- Original Message ---- From: email@example.com To: firstname.lastname@example.org, Subject: RE: digital instruments Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:18:57 -0500
(back) Subject: Digital thread consolidation From: "Charles Peery" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:23:38 -0400 The last couple of days I've had 70+ messages more than usual due to this digital/pipe... well, I'll call it a discussion. Those of us on the list for any length of time have seen these same discussions ad infinitum. I kinda don't like 'em... the list is, after all, called PIPEchat for a reason. However, be that as it may. I wonder if those of you who are participating in the discussion might consolidate your responses? I really don't see any point to five or six messages with the subject title "Here We Go Again" coming from the same person posted at 8:39, 8:43, 8:52, 9:03, etc., etc. I know you think you're responding to different people's points, but I think anybody following the discussion would realize that even if your comments were consolidated into one post. Hate to be crabby, but as long as people are giving their opinions about things digital, I thought I'd lodge this digital complaint. Chuck Peery Cincinnati
(back) Subject: Several Comments - Re: Digital thread consolidation From: "Administrator" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:19:18 -0500 Folks I'm using Chuck Peery's posting as an excuse to interject a few comments. At 7:23 AM -0400 9/14/03, Charles Peery wrote: >The last couple of days I've had 70+ messages more than usual due to >this digital/pipe... well, I'll call it a discussion. Those of us >on the list for any length of time have seen these same discussions >ad infinitum. I kinda don't like 'em... the list is, after all, >called PIPEchat for a reason. However, be that as it may. Chuck - taken directly from the List Web Site "PipeChat is the "chat" discussion group for pipe/digital/electronic organs and related topics." So all of this is "on-topic" for this list and as long as the discussion remains friendly there is nothing wrong with it. >I wonder if those of you who are participating in the discussion >might consolidate your responses? I really don't see any point to >five or six messages with the subject title "Here We Go Again" >coming from the same person posted at 8:39, 8:43, 8:52, 9:03, etc., >etc. I know you think you're responding to different people's >points, but I think anybody following the discussion would realize >that even if your comments were consolidated into one post. I have noticed that several people have done this already. Maybe a few more of you could see about doing this, including in your replies enough of the various posts you are responding to in order to keep the discussion/replies clear in the other member's minds. It would also help if everyone would edit their replies to include only the pertinent parts that you are replying to. Ad ended one of her posts with the following: " Could we ALL please take a moment to verify we're not sending HTML?? It really drives the people on digest nuts, David and Tim have all but begged us repeatedly not to. One post on Aug 29th even had an embedded .gif file!!" Yes, Tim and i have repeated asked that you "try" to set your email to send in Plain Text Only to this list but we also know that some of the various email programs are not allowing that. Luckily, the version of the list server software we are using does strip out the HTML garbage from the Digests so the Digest members of the list are not having to scroll through all sorts of junk. The server software is also supposed to strip out the HTML postings for the individual postings but for some reason that is not happening. I am working with the developers of the server software to see why. The server "should" have also stripped or rejected the posting that had the embedded ".gif" file and again I am working to determine why that didn't happen. On the whole I have to commend everyone for the quality of their postings - there hasn't been any "flaming" or name calling as usually happens when we get into this discussion. I hope you will all keep it that way. I know that we will never really resolve this issue, there are always going to be two "camps" - we just all need to agree to disagree! David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat http://www.pipechat.org mailto:email@example.com
(back) Subject: RE: Out of the closet! From: "Mark L. Hopper" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:33:39 -0400 Bud wrote... >>I'm not PRIMARILY in church music because of God, or my faith, or >>anything else; I happen to LIKE church music; I CHOOSE to make my LIVING >>doing church music Bud, I think that by saying this you're putting your enormous professional cart before the collective horse of the church. What you do is a vehicle = to grow the faith of the congregation's) you serve. If your main focus in music making is not PRIMARILY what your congregants are seeking, i.e. faith-growth and praise through music, then they naturally see your wants/needs professionally as being secondary to their reason for bringing you into their fold as a worship leader. Our profession is a unique one...a called one. If we make the profession itself more important than the profession's purpose, then the only two = other possibilities for motivation are to entertain our congregants or to narcissistically amuse/fulfill ourselves. A wise old lady in one of my former churches (a former pastor's wife of several large churches in the D.C./VA area) said "if you love your congregation, they'll love you back." I've found this to be true in all = of my past and present places of service...including the benefits, salaries, and working conditions you describe. Okay...flame away... -Mark
(back) Subject: Re: some further points, and no, I'm NOT going to give up (chuckle) From: "Mickey Sadler" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:13:39 -0700 OK Gang, let's use our imagination! Imagine that pipe organs had not been invented first, but that electronic organs had been. Our discussions would probably go along the lines of: "Gawd - what are these PLUMBERS up to now? Trying to make music with a stack of sewer pipes! What next, flush handles and 32 foot commodes? Imagine the gurgles and pounding pipe sounds! Let's all stick to our electronics and turn up our noses at ANYTHING else that tries to imitate them!" I admit I own a Wurlitzer 950 electronic organ. When I bought it, I was in love with the theatre pipe organ sound, but I didn't realize an INDIVIDUAL could own a pipe organ. Also, at that time I didn't think I would ever have room for a pipe organ. The $10,000+ I spent on the Wurlitzer was a major investment for me. If I had put the ten grand aside and added to it in order to buy a pipe organ I probably would not have any kind of organ, and the money would probably be gone to support my family. I mostly play by ear (and I hope to someday learn to play with hands and feet) but I do enjoy making music, at least for my entertainment. I don't particularly like most classical music (some of it is OK), I like blues, jazz, show tunes, etc. I was raised in a church that had a small upright piano and a few tambourines for music. Sometimes there would be a guitar (acoustic) added - usually by my grandmother. We did make a lot of music. On the other hand, I have recently been to a primarily black church that had a Hammond B3 and a grand piano. They also had a small electric band that would play some services. I would suggest if you have not heard gospel music on a Hammond B3 played with feeling, get yourself to a primarily black church post haste and have a listen. After all, classical liturgical music is not the only thing in the world. Now lets get on with teaching me about pipe organs. Someday I may be able to put one together and join the rest of the crowd. Mickey ---- Mickey E. Sadler Dublin, Ohio
(back) Subject: Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:25:18 EDT Hello firstname.lastname@example.org, In reference to your comment: This is really not the place to be discussing Hammond. There are many other lists for that, to which I subscribe, and I would be happy to read your Hammond-related opinions there. ~~~~~~~~~ Walter, you need to look at the PipeChat footer again: "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat:=A0 A=A0 discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : <A HREF=3D"http://www.pipechat.orgPlease">http://www.pipechat.org </A>Please let the list owners quash inappropriate threads - they WILL do so= if=20 necessary! Thanks, Victoria
(back) Subject: Re: speaking of the toccata in d minor From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:37:48 EDT Hello Gfc234@aol.com, In reference to your comment: It's EVERYwhere...even on cell phone ring tones.but the fugue subject is ALWAYS in the wrong key ~~~~~~~~~~~ It's possible to download a program from Nokia in which you can score your = OWN ring tones and upload them to your phone, if your phone and computer = have infrared ports. MY ring tone is one of Holborne's trumpet tunes. :-) (To keep this on topic!) Victoria
(back) Subject: Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:41:00 -0500 Hello, PipeChatters:: On Saturday, September 13, 2003, at 07:18 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote: > (1) Don't hide behind God. I doubt seriously that (S)He has an opinion > one way or the other... <snip> ...It's interesting how the > pro-electronics crew always casts the pro-pipe-organ crew as godless > pagans because we have *musical* STANDARDS. Does this mean that people who play electronic/digital organs do not have musical standards? F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: mIRC From: "Glenda" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:35:43 -0500 mIRC has been downloaded, but I don't know if I am connected to pipechat. I hope someone will be talking tonight so that I can determine that. Bud? Bring potato salad. Glenda Sutton firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: RE: Question for PipeChat People From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:29:58 -0400 Andres Gunther firstname.lastname@example.org Dear Fran, Your question touches the countless wonders of modern research :) After 25 years playing the 8 littles as Bach works, a freshly France- degreed = junior Colleague came back to Caracas blasting to the four winds that the 8 = little were not from Bach and *insinuating* that further playing of that = simplistic stuff would be sort of a heresy. This leads us to the dead-or-life sholarly question if Bach's works really were written by Johann Sebastian Bach the Thomaskantor in Lepizig or = another guy whose name was johann sebastian bach the ghostwriter. Further researches will bring out it these contested works will 1) = conserve their alledged value as artworks, and 2) if their Public Domain Status should be retrieved and royalties go to prospective descendants of the ghostwriter, previous exhaustives DNA Analysis of course. With Kind regards to William Shakespeare who faces exactly the same = problem I remain respectfully Andres (in rather acid tongue in cheek mood after reading countless posts about = the <BIG YAWN> pipe vs digital thing; and hiding under my vintage Conn Artist 721 home organ 'till the storm is over). =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: Re: digital instruments From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:09:19 -0500 Hello, Bill: You wrote: > Digital organ companies pay artists... * * * > I wonder how many of them would choose to perform > on a digital instrument if they weren't receiving > a fee specifically to do so. I don't suppose we > will know. Artists are professionals (we hope). They charge to play the organ; digital or pipe. For that matter, how many artists (professional types) insist on performing on any organ for which there is no fee? F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: Re: mIRC From: "Administrator" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:43:12 -0500 >mIRC has been downloaded, but I don't know if I am connected to >pipechat. I hope someone will be talking tonight so that I can >determine that. Bud? Bring potato salad. > >Glenda Sutton Glenda Go to http://www.pipechat.org/mirc.html - there is a full set of directions with "screen shots" of how to configure mIRC for connecting to the PipeChat IRC server. Adrianne Schutt did these pages and they have been a great help in getting people connected to the server. I'm sure someone will be on-line tonight so you can check your = configuration David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat http://www.pipechat.org mailto:email@example.com
(back) Subject: More on Trinity Church From: "Administrator" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:46:56 -0500 As most of you know, i also own and run the EORG-L. The following was posted to that list and I am forwarding it here with permission of the author David ************************************************************************* Subject: Re: Trinity Church, New York From: <DWMarsh@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:19:12 EDT Hello, List, With the crescendo of activity leading up to the installation of the organ for Trinity Church none of us at Marshall & Ogletree has had time to = respond to the questions many people have had about the organ until now. I can confirm that the organ runs on 10 Linux PCs doing tone generation = plus plus several others which run the consoles and do housekeeping chores. Trinity's organ is the result of a unique collaboration between purchaser = and seller. Dr. Burdick heard about the experimental work we were doing = shortly after the 9/11 disaster two years ago. At that time our project was = formative and little more than a late night hobby. Ultimately, Dr. Burdick and = others from the church came to hear it and felt we were doing something = interesting enough to warrant their investment. We committed to building an organ for = them. Seven people have given a substantial chunk of their lives over the last = two years to make Trinity's organ a reality. We have been fortunate to have = some very brilliant minds and sharp ears dedicated to the project. It was our = hope that the organ would be finished earlier this year, however, the = unanticipated and tragic loss of one of our software developers to lung cancer = precipitated a delay. The work of voicing and regulating the organ will continue in the church = for some time. We are very pleased with how it sounds now but encourage you to stay tuned for what it will yet become. One little known fact about the organ may give greater perspective on its resources: it is really two complete and different organs. From the beginning we had planned to have identical sound systems in the chancel and the gallery = and treat one of them as an antiphonal organ in the traditional electronic = organ sense - in other words, swtich the audio back and forth. A couple of = months ago we decided a more pipelike solution would be to double generate the = sounds using a completely different sample set for the two organs. So, Trinity's = organ is really two, independent 85-stop organs. This brings the total resources = of the organ to over 200 ranks and allows the total resources to be played = from one console (the usual way) or split between the two consoles as desired. For additional information please feel free to contact me privately. Doug Marshall Marshall & Ogletree, LLC email@example.com -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat http://www.pipechat.org mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Volunteers From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:15:08 -0500 Piping Up: The notion that many of the "larger" churches often have volunteers playing the organ (piano, guitar, bass, trumpet, drums, etc.....) who, in effect, deny an organist a steady salary, ...maybe with benefits may have a precendent in our AnteBellum past. All "ladies" of the gentry were expected to master some level of skill in music. When it came to playing in the church, it was customary for one of these ladies to be the organist/pianist. Maybe the community was fortunate to have several ladies who could satify the needs. In my rural Southern up-bringing, most of the churches with whom I was familiar had a modern variant of this theme. The "first lady" of the church was usually the pastor's wife, and she was expected to have sufficient skills on the organ that she could play a service on short notice, ...in the event that the resident lady who normally had this responsibility could not be present for one reason or the other. As I moved to Texas, the variant was a bit different. The pioneer society of the Southwest was not based on the old Southern traditions. There were few "ladies of the gentry." So, the pastor's wife was expected to be the church organist, too. The church always got two-for-the-price-of-one when they called a pastor. By the time I grew to some level of maturity (at least I was recognized as an adult), many of the pastors were also coming from that pioneering society, where none of the expectations of the past were carried forward. Their wives were also of the pioneering society, and few of them played the organ. So, by the 1970s, only the music-divisions of the seminaries were graduating a few true organists, and these fellows often had to make the organ imitate the orchestra to accompany the newer styles of romantic music being used in this evangelical society. By the mid-1980s, the preachers were crying loudly for the demise of "high-church music" in the churches in favor of the heart-felt expressions of their more contemporary people, with the instruments of the Berkeley Revolution; guitars, electric basses, drums, and (sometimes) piano. They rejected everything over 30 years of age, including authority of the Pope, the bishops, and anyone else who held supervisory jobs in the various denominations. They even declared: "God is Dead," assuming this gave them the right to reconfigure all authority to please them. Today, we have fewer churches playing "church music." Let me tell you what Hellen, our organist, told me last week. Our church has "traditional" church at 8:45 a.m. on Sunday, and "contemporary" church at 11:15 a.m. Now and then, we have both services traditional in nature for some reason. As she played the organ postlude during what was normally the contemporary service, quite a crowd gathered around the console to listen. For some, this was the first time they had ever heard our organ played in church. The essence of their response was: "Wow! We had no idea that the organ sounded like this. We like it! Play for us again, ...SOON!" My conclusion is that most people attending church will go with the flow. If it is traditional, that's fine. If it is contemporary, they pray and sway, assuming that this is proper because this is what the platform leaders present. As for Helen being a volunteer, we don't demand that of her, but the amount paid hardly justifies her to be sure that all of the music played every Sunday hits the right notes at the right time. She is a fine music teacher in one of our local public schools, and we are very fortunate to have her dedicated and faithful skills. There are lots of our churches who depend on volunteers to play whatever musical instruments are used. That is neither good nor bad; just the way it is, and I do not see that this denies an organist of a salary that is not there to begin with. Also, consider that the organist in most of our churches is not the music director; just an accompanist, some better than others. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: Another camp heard from... From: "noel jones" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 11:18:56 -0400 A good friend of mine runs a daily service that emails a link to an organ = file that he has prepared for listening using a (horrors!) virtual organ... He includes notes about the music...an easy way to enlarge your = appreciation for the vast repertoire of our instrument. Today's message: J. P. Sweelinck: Echo Fantasia 4 (Ionian--C Major) The actual echo section comprises less than a page of this 6-page score, Sequences and repeated notes and scalar passages comprrise the rest, much like a keyboard improvisation. Virtual organ set from 1766 Schmidt organ in Peruc, Czech Republic - Samples by Jiri Zurek http://www.clavmon.cz/sonus/ http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track574.htm [6 minutes, 48 seconds] -- James Pressler "Subscribe to or unsubscribe from music lists" =95 http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/daily.htm Keep up with the Phantom Organist's latest tracks =95 http://www.phantorg.net noel jones
(back) Subject: What Makes an Organ so Expensive? From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:22:00 -0500 Hi, Jeff: You inquired: > What makes a new pipe organ so darned expensive?? One very simple, yet complex, answer: The beast is labor intensive. Labor has become one of the most expensive commodities on the American market. The cost of living continues to spiral upwards, and we have to pay people reasonable wages to keep them. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: RE: At Least there's one good reason for doing what we're doing..... From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:57:47 -0400 Andres Gunther email@example.com Just finished this interesting article. The old greeks had their reasons to make such emphasis in music studies, even when it seems they considered music more as a science than as an art. Further, it always called to my attention that musicians learn second and third languages more easily than "normal" :) people. Psychologists used to reccomend music lessons to boys and girls with = certain learning or behaviour problems. My dad made a good business with the resulting boom in piano and 'pop organ' lesson demand although I wonder if the results were the expected- he was an extremely severe teacher and = having lessons with him was all but a fun. Cheers Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: Re: Question re: 8 little preludes and fugues From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:24:16 EDT The Eight Little Preludes and Fugures are now suspected by scholars to be part of the Krebs Cycle, but how these little organ pieces help move = carbon dioxide out of the ketogluterate stage and transform the molecule into the = succinyl CoA phase remains unknown.