PipeChat Digest #3970 - Monday, September 15, 2003
 
Re: Out of the closet!
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: Small organs
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: digital instruments
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: da beat goes on
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: Digital thread consolidation
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Small Organs - Artiste
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: Small Pipe organs long but interesting
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
16' principals in small unit organs
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Geneology- finding them
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
Re: Funeral Parlor organs revisited
  by "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org>
Re: Acqireing used pipe, reed, or electronic organs
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief
  by "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Out of the closet! From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:10:28 -0400   Amy,   I always knew that Vets didn't get paid much=2E When you do a surgery you=   get a fraction of what a regular doctor gets for that same surgery=2E I w= ent to a career orientation on Vets in high school and the lady said "if you want to make a lot of money odn't become a vet" I guess the same could be=   said for church musicians=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: CGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOT Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:59:45 -0500 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Out of the closet!     Just getting a chance to catch up on old digests=2E   As a veterinarian I have trouble getting paid what I am worth as well=2E = Many folks think I should help their pets just because I love animals or becaus= e "it's only a stray that I found" (most of my clients have pets that were once only a stray) and want me to do the work for free or complain that we=   charge too much=2E So you see, it is not just in your profession=2E If I= lived in a large city I could command better fees=2E I realized after awhile th= at if I continued to bemoan these facts that I would always be unhappy=2E   Also as an employer it is clear that I have X dollars to spend on salary a= nd benifits=2E It is a shell game=2E If I give benifits I will be paying le= ss salary=2E It all comes out of one pot and there is only so much money the= re=2E I choose to pay a higher wage and hopefully my employees are smart enough = to save some for retirement=2E I do not see it as my responsibility to manag= e their money=2E Same with health insurance=2E A large company can buy che= aper insurance but as a small company I could do no better on premiums than the= y could on their own=2E My staff chose to get their insurance on their own = and get a pay raise instead=2E So don't kid yourself=2E The employee always = pays for their health insurance one way or another=2E I pay them as much as I = can afford and if it is not enough they are free to find another job, there is=   nothing more I can do about it=2E   My church is a small Lutheran church=2E I am the superintendant of Sunday=   school and volunteer my time=2E We also had to let our secretary go in th= e interest of cutting expenses and some retired ladies volunteer their time for this=2E We also do not have a paid organist=2E Now if a church pays = a secretary, youth leader, gardener, etc=2E then by all means they should be=   able to afford to pay an organist=2E There are not too many churches in t= his part of the country that can do that except in the larger cities=2E   Bud, I am sorry that you have been through so much=2E I believe that you = are very talanted and professional and deserve to be well paid=2E But know th= at all pastors are not stupid and arrogant=2E Those I know are both Biblical=   scholars and nice people who are appreciative of those of us who help them= =2E But maybe it is this part of the country=2E <grin>   Amy   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: Small organs From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:18:32 -0400   Bud,   And I played Grande Piece Symphonique on a 24 rank Beckerath mechanical stop action (without a registrant) tracker on my masters recital=2E All i= t takes is a little creativity=2E   Andrew Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: UFPEGAUTFJMVRESKP Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:48:34 -0700 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Small organs     OK, I'll take you on, Bob (grin) =2E=2E=2E name me WHAT of the "modern"=20=   repertoire that it can't play=2E I certainly played Dubois, Boellmann,=20 Tournemire, and Dupre on that 1-manual Ott in Founders' Chapel=2E   Cheers,   Bud   P=2ES=2E - there's more "ancient" music written for organ (from the=20 beginning through J=2ES=2E Bach) than there is "modern" (since J=2ES=2E Ba= ch)   bobelms wrote:   > Well Bud, that organ of yours can play a lot of ancient music but > very little of the modern repertoire=2E and the cost of that number of > ranks would still be over $100 000 here=2E You still have not made your > point as far as I am concerned=2E > Bob Elms=2E >=20 > ---- Original Message ---- > Wrom: NKMBIPBARHDMNNSK > To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg > Subject: Re: Small organs > Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:40:45 -0700 >=20 >=20 >>I love Tournemire; I used to play a lot of Tournemire; MANY of the=20 >>shorter pieces only require two manuals, and flutes-strings-celestes=2E >> >>But let's take a look at that: >> >=20 > snip >=20 >=20 >> >>MANUAL - all stops divided at middle c >> >>8' Principal - complete to low C >>8' Gedeckt >>4' Octave >>4' Flute >>2' Octave >> Mixture / Cornet - mixture in the bass, cornet in the treble >>8' Oboe >> >>PEDAL >> >>16' Bourdon >> >>T >=20 >=20 > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg >=20 >=20 >=20     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: RE: digital instruments From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:29:58 -0500   This hasn't come from my computer, but likely from someone with my address in their book. I have Windows ME which is purportedly supposed to be = immune from this particular worm. Either way, I do not attach files when I post, so I'm not sure what the deal is there. But, I will scan my computer, to = be sure.   Thanks! Jeff     > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > bobelms > Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 5:58 AM > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: RE: digital instruments > > > Jeff, the last three of your posts have come through here with > ATTACHMENT:Unknown.unk ****kb. > > Something nasty appears to be going on, but it may be one of those > worms using someon's address book. Anyway we did not get to read > those posts. > Bob. > > ---- Original Message ---- > From: reedstop@charter.net > To: pipechat@pipechat.org, > Subject: RE: digital instruments > Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:18:57 -0500 > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: RE: da beat goes on From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:20:40 -0400   I also played Messiaen L'Ascension on that Beckerath tracker organ, again without a registrant=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: ARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJV Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:38:16 -0700 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: da beat goes on     I think Bob meant to copy the list; instead he sent it to me twice=2E       Bob sputtereth:   Dubois, Boellmann, TOurnemire and Dupre are modern??? They died a generation or four ago! Try Howells, Young, Lovelock, Messiaen, Hampton, Johnston, Williamson, some by English Cathedral organists (plenty of them around and still alive!!!) or one of the young turks of Australian modern organ music=2E There are many more=2E Or try some of the Anglican repertoire of church music=2E   Bob       Bob, with respect, you just don't get it=2E   Village organists don't PLAY Messiaen, Hampton, Williamson, at least=2E=20=   Howells' Psalm-Preludes CAN be played on a small organ=2E   Um, I think after fifty years of playing, teaching, directing and=20 singing it, I have a FAIR idea of what's required to accompany the=20 Anglican choral repertoire (grin)=2E   Again, with respect, VILLAGE churches (I can't make that any BIGGER, or=20=   I WOULD) don't SING and PLAY the CATHEDRAL repertoire=2E   The PROBLEM is ORGANISTS who have FANTASIES of doing it "someday", and=20 put in 75 digital "stops" in a 100-seat church that hasn't HAD a choir=20 since the end of WWII on the off-chance that they MIGHT=2E   Here's what a TYPICAL Anglican Sunday service in a SMALL U=2ES=2E church=20=   looks like:   Voluntary - MAYBE Hymn of Praise - Scottish Chant Gloria in excelsis (Rite I), or a=20 metrical hymn (Rite II) Psalm - probably SAID, not SUNG Offertory - maybe a voluntary, more likely a hymn Sanctus - Schubert or Proulx or Powell (Rite II); Willan or Merbecke=20 (Rite I) - all UNISON congregational settings, except the Schubert,=20 which the choir CAN sing in parts, IF there IS a choir Fraction Anthem - plainsong, VERY simple Communion - voluntary, followed by a hymn (Recessional Hymn - discouraged, but still in widespread use) Voluntary   Now =2E=2E=2E how many stops does THAT require, ASSUMING that the village=20=   organist knows HOW to use the foot-pedals at ALL?   Cheers,   Bud     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: RE: Digital thread consolidation From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:30:45 -0500   > Hate to be crabby, but as long as people are giving their opinions about > things digital, I thought I'd lodge this digital complaint. > > Chuck Peery > Cincinnati   On the other hand, Chuck, it may make it easier for those who do not wish = to read these to delete. :)   Jeff    
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs - Artiste From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:24:02 -0400   It doesn't work for Wicks because their voicing is shit=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: Keys4bach@aol=2Ecom Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:14:09 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Small Organs - Artiste     In a message dated 9/14/2003 8:17:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 Kzimmer0817@aol=2Ecom writes:   > If voicing is everything (almost), why couldn't these organs be mass=20 > produced - at least in a couple configurations for different sized sanctuaries? =20 > They could then be voiced onsite=2E >=20   Is anyone doing this besides Wicks and the resurrected Forward 4 line up o= f=20 organs?   dale in Florida     -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: GOD doesn't care; *I* care From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:31:00 -0400   Oh Boy! Andrew's itchin' for a fight!     > "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> > > E. Power Biggs was not at the same level as Latry and Roth. Not a good > comparison. He didn't even do improvisation and doesn't even play Bach > very well. His recordings of Bach are sloppy and use poor baroque > articulation. > > Andrew    
(back) Subject: Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:41:16 -0400   I hope he was very well paid for his work, as we all hope we will be well = paid for ours. I can assure you he was not bribed to forsake his = conscience. Remember that after Virgil Fox gave up on the Rodgers analog = touring organ that had been provided to him free of charge, and begged = Allen to build him one, they made him pay cash money for it. Regardless = of Hakim's compensation, the Allen CC is a fabulous and worthy instrument. = You haven't heard it, have you, Andrew?   -WG   > "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> > > I'll bet he got paid out the wazoo to play that Sebastian. > > Andrew > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: TubaMagna@aol.com > Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:43:40 -0400 (EDT) > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices > > Yes, Naji Hakin did, in fact, demonstrate a simulated organ at an AGO > convention. > I wonder who sponsored his trip, and what the nature of his compensation > may, > or may not, have been. > And I hope that he is not suffering too much playing his Cavaille-Coll = on a > daily basis.    
(back) Subject: Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:46:28 -0400   Walter,   I played one at an AGO convention=2E Good intsrument as far as electrics = go but still not the same as the real thing=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: Walter Greenwood walterg@nauticom=2Enet Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:41:16 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices     I hope he was very well paid for his work, as we all hope we will be well paid for ours=2E I can assure you he was not bribed to forsake his conscience=2E Remember that after Virgil Fox gave up on the Rodgers analo= g touring organ that had been provided to him free of charge, and begged Allen to build him one, they made him pay cash money for it=2E Regardless= of Hakim's compensation, the Allen CC is a fabulous and worthy instrument=2E=20=   You haven't heard it, have you, Andrew?   -WG   > "ameagher@stny=2Err=2Ecom" <ameagher@stny=2Err=2Ecom> > > I'll bet he got paid out the wazoo to play that Sebastian=2E > > Andrew > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: TubaMagna@aol=2Ecom > Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:43:40 -0400 (EDT) > To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg > Subject: Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices > > Yes, Naji Hakin did, in fact, demonstrate a simulated organ at an AGO > convention=2E > I wonder who sponsored his trip, and what the nature of his compensation=   > may, > or may not, have been=2E > And I hope that he is not suffering too much playing his Cavaille-Coll o= n a > daily basis=2E   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: Small Pipe organs long but interesting From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:47:17 EDT   Dear Jeff etal:   Small pipe organs used to be in the realm of semi mass production in the late 19th and early and middle 20th century. These were the bread and butter of very large organ factories and sometimes offset some losses on much larger instruments. Chests, console shells, pipes and other pertinent parts were stock piled for immediate assembly and use. The Stopped Flute, Diapason, Dulciana, and Salicional were produced in appropriate amounts in a standard scale. Unfortunately the great crash of 1929 effectively put a halt to that. It was an era when Los Angeles Arts organ Co. could produce a 160 plus rank organ out the door in Van Nuys in little over four months in 1904 for the St. Louis Exposition. This and the case now happily reside in Philadelphia as the famous nucleus of the six manual John Wanamaker Store organ. Alexander Guilmant played a ton of recitals at St. Louis, Mo. Many other famous artists since. It also cost Murray Harris his factory, because the church it was going to backed out, and it was placed in storage for several = years.   Midmer-Losch lost their shirt building the Atlantic City Aud. organ and went out of business. Organ companies who played the volume game lost out. Too bad as it kept prices reasonable. The surviving companies realized that to stay in business, They had to become more fiscally responsible. The movie organ era and the boom was over. that changed things greatly. It also came as a big surprise to most, when technology took a big jump, with Al Jolsen and "The Jazz Singer". Talkies were in silents were out.   Small pipe organs today are just as custom and one of a kind as are the much larger organs. Not being able to mass produce, raises the costs considerably, but nobody in their right mind today is about to chance doing that again. There are just too many variables to consider, that a stable but flat economy afforded the old companies. Technology has made it's inroads into the process. In the near future it may be possible produce a pipe organ without any cables. We are very near that now with fibre optics. Small organs by their very nature will cost more per rank than their much larger counterparts. Adding ranks lowers the cost per rank, becuase the rest of the infrastucture is already there.   Best overall longevity would be electro-mechanical actions, easier to maintain and releather. Electro-Pneumatic much more work. Every action has it's short comings including the very reliable tracker actions. It's all a toss up what you are willing to live with. Each affects pipe speech differently, and the voicing and finishing therefore follow suit.   I hope this answers the price and cost questions.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: 16' principals in small unit organs From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:54:30 EDT   Keith, I've seen lots of Moller Artistes for around 5 thousand dollars. The = problem with having a 16' principal, is that the blower couldn't handle it, and = that rank is about 20 times too big to fit in the tiny little box that contains = the organ. The cost for manufacturing a rank that size new, especially for a 3 = or 4 rank organ would be astronomical. In fact, even some large 2 and 3 = manual organs don't even have a 16' prestant due to space constraints, and are = still 100% successful organs. On open diapason at 8 and 4, with a bourdon 16 coupled in the pedal is plenty of power for playing hymns-especially if = both of those ranks are under expression. It would't give you anything fancy, but = it would get the job done, week after week.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Geneology- finding them From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:07:38 -0400   All of Bach's children and/or grandchildren died without issue, (I'm told) except for P.D.Q. who had lots of illegitimate kids by many fathers. (I'm told he claimed credit for almost everything).     You can trace most folks on these two free websites. www.familysearch.org run by the LDS church and www.rootsweb.com A massive set of mailing lists and genealogy databases run by volunteers - like me.   If you can't find your ancestors on those sites you probably will have to dig them up yourselves!   Nelson       --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 01-Sep-03    
(back) Subject: Re: Funeral Parlor organs revisited From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:20:37 -0400     On 9/13/03 11:43 PM, Ron Severn wrote: > The other > lament is that some of these people break things because they > don't know anything about organs but play with piano technique. > Many times they don't play all that well either. It's probably the > reason stipends are in the neighborhood of $25 to $75 dollars.   I'd say that this looks very much like a "chicken or egg" argument, or = more likely, a "cart before the horse" one. They get what you pay for.   They're not willing to pay for a decent organist, so they Great Aunt = Trudie who's used to pounding the pye-annie so hard she breaks the organ keys. = Then they're claiming that since they're not getting reasonable organists, that =   there's no point in getting a decent organ, digital or pipe. Seems to me = that some "business sense" just doesn't make any sense at all.   I sincerely hope that the funeral chapel with the Quimby takes all the business from the chislers at the other local mortuary establishments. = We could hope it might start a trend.   Cheers, TommyLee    
(back) Subject: Re: Acqireing used pipe, reed, or electronic organs From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:25:34 EDT   Hi Greg etal:   I almost picked up a Moeller Artiste, orig. selling price $10,000 for three ranks. I got them down to $2,500 because they were in a big hurry to move it. I began doing the math, 1953, hmmmm releathering and they admitted that. Great shape though. Moving costs, storage, set up, installation, voicing minor repairs, releathering. $37,500. including the selling price. Alas no free lunch and almost the cost of new. I had to decline. Now electro-mechanical is a whole different story. You really have to be knowledgeable or you'll wind up with someone elses money pit. Good advice for anyone willing to drop some cash on a bargain. There are some out there but you must be very careful. Same goes for a used electronic, digital, or reed organ. Reed organs can be forgiving if you are mechanically inclined and are straight forward being a type of tracker action. A Mostel might be an interesting prize. You do need to know some things in order to make informed decissions, and have good friend in the business, a must!   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief From: "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:24:14 -0400   At 04:29 AM 14/09/2003 -0400, you wrote: >and i see NO need to bother him, or Hammond with this petty garbage. Of course. I understand your embarassment at the wrong people seeing your "opinions"....but this is what happens. For all you know, the =   guys at HamSuz could already be lurking on this list. So could your employer. The technician who works on the church's organ. The wife of = the next club owner you hope to get a gig from. Gotta keep this in mind = before hitting send.   > I would like to know why you are getting so upset with my opinions, = and > making personal attacks? Please don't interpret my post as personal attacks. All I did = was calmly address the 2 problems you created for yourself: 1) you trashed an instrument you've never played, let alone learned about the adjustable aspects of....all the while claiming to be "a =   specialist in the field" who should be trusted. 2) you attempted a character assasination of public figures you have no personal knowledge of   > I don't even know your name! That's certainly no fault of mine. Like all responsibe net = users, my full first and last name appear in the From field of every email = message that I personally send. Not a bare email address, not a fake nickname, = and not an administrative title unless absolutely warranted. On occasions where my email does come from a professional account, my name and credentials do appear in a sig file....of 4 lines or less, out of respect for the recipient, as well as standard nettiquette. Point 2 on the subject, I've clearly identified myself several times on this list, including in this thread, as the long-time owner/admin =   of the Hammond Technical List...Hamtech for short. www.hamtech.org Point 3.....Hi. I'm Adri--ANNE, and I'm female. :) The "Maybe@pipcom" character isn't a man, as you thought.   > They are certainly on the right track, but technology develops so fast =   > these days that its impossible to win, especially when the stakes are so =   > high. What's the harm in saying that? There's no harm in that....but it isn't what you said.   >I'm not trying to be nasty at all! This started as a friendly little >debate, just like all the other debates that take place on this >list. Unfortunately this one has gotten WAY too hot and emotional for = me. I'm sorry, but calling anybody "less than friendly...mobsters" leaps way over the nasty line, especially when you believe they can't see you. You may also want to reconsider the words "junk", "crap" and "terrible"....especially when you don't include an "in my own opinion" disclaimer. Those are inflammatory, hurtful words, and they rarely make people react in any way you'd like.   "Nasty" aside, the biggest troublemaker is your claim to be "a specialist in this field". If that were true, it would be fine. However, =   I know that you haven't spent hours exploring the instrument's capabilities....all you've done is sit through one of Joey's concerts. That's more than a little misleading.   Witnessing one performance doesn't qualify you to condemn any instrument of this type, because you still have no idea of the range it's capable of. It does, however, qualify you to make "in my opinion" observations about how that particular unit (not model, UNIT) performed in =   one specific location in one specific configuration. You have no idea = what settings were in play, whether it had been dialed in for another use, whether it was running "out of the box" because there was no time for tweaks, or even if something had begun to malfunction.   You can claim to be an expert with this instrument after you've spent hours learning what all of the configuration adjustments can do for it. You can claim knowledge of the cabinet after seeing a few dozen of them. Right now, all you can safely say is what Joey did with one particular unit on one particular night.   The first few miles I test drove my current model of car, I thought it was a sloppy, gutless wonder. After the salesman taught me how =   to communicate to the car which degree of aggressiveness I wanted, an entirely different beast emerged. A quick trip to a good alignment shop after I took delivery worked more magic, and the original "cute, but blah" =   car really came into her own....as the most inspiring thing I've been behind the wheel of in a lot of years. Those first impressions when you don't know what you're talking about.....they're a lot less embarassing when you don't present them as final concrete fact. :)   Have fun! Ad ;->