PipeChat Digest #3972 - Monday, September 15, 2003 Smm Organs--Artiste by <RMB10@aol.com> Black hole plays lowest Bb by <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Re: The AGO's Function-long by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Small organs by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Small organs by "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Bringing the AGO plans to life. by <Gfc234@aol.com> The ARTS channel by <Pepehomer@aol.com> This Part of the Country by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Bringing the AGO plans to life. by "Mari" <email@example.com> Re: Small Organs by "John Nisbet" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Small Organs by "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: Small Organs by "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> disheartening by <email@example.com> Re: Small Organs by "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Smm Organs--Artiste by "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: disheartening by "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> a question by <email@example.com> Re: Smm Organs--Artiste by <firstname.lastname@example.org> don't discount OLDER Wicks organs by <email@example.com> Re: Smm Organs--Artiste by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: disheartening by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Smm Organs--Artiste From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 06:53:45 EDT >Subject: Re: Small Organs - Artiste >From: "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> >Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:24:02 -0400 > >It doesn't work for Wicks because their voicing is shit. > >Andrew Andrew- In the not so distant past days, the voicing wasn't necessarily the best, = but at my funeral home we have a 1939 Henry Vincent Willis voiced Wicks. The = new Wicks organs being voiced by Bill Hamner are fantastic. He's one of the = few people voicing in America who knows how to make a true Diapason, not to mention all sorts of long forgotten stops from the Romantic era. His work = would make Henry Vincent Willis or G. Donald Harrison proud. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Black hole plays lowest Bb From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:05:13 -0400 http://www.msnbc.com/news/963885.asp Merry Foxworth =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:- An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632). Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/
(back) Subject: Re: The AGO's Function-long From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:35:03 EDT In a message dated 9/15/2003 12:17:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > They all made about $35,000 a year with > benefits. > heckfire --my Lutheran maroon gets 50000 with health and retirement in a church of 120 members---and housing that comes out pre tax or some such = thing to help him out tax wise. I get 67.00 a week if I show up and 75 a month toward health insurance. Music Director/organist. I get 30 if I record on disc the service the = Sundays I am away for my real job which is not the one I would prefer to be doing....... not complaining just adding coals. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Small organs From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:38:00 EDT In a message dated 9/15/2003 12:19:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: > And I played Grande Piece Symphonique on a 24 rank Beckerath mechanical > stop action (without a registrant) tracker on my masters recital. All = it > takes is a little creativity But why would you do this? When i gave a recital in the theater with a Casavant tracker hanging on the wall I played an entirely different = program than the Belch and Vomit (sorry, Balcom and Vaughn) in the recital hall? However, i bet it was a great performance and so carefully thought out it = had to work well. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:41:01 EDT In a message dated 9/15/2003 12:43:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > the Allen CC is a fabulous and worthy instrument. > didn't it pop and crack at the Seattle Convention? dale in florida
(back) Subject: Re: Small organs From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:09:47 -0500 Love your logic, Bud: However, your assumptions are made within the context of those who can afford, ...at some point in time and space, to purchase the organ. Where I live, more than 90 percent of the churches and institutions where organ music is desirable will never, ....let me say that again, NEVER spend that kind of money on an organ. With such overwhelming odds against a pipe organ, we have to offer some alternative or abandon the lovely musical heritage that includes the organ music of the past. ....which is exactly what the Contemporary Christian Music movement is all about. For a church that has about 200 members, meets in a very small building (often built by their grandfathers) and supports an annual budget of about $200,000 (and many do not give that much), holding out the hope for a pipe organ is only a "pipe" dream. In very fact, I had the oppotunity to install a used pipe organ at the little church where I was music director in the late 1960s, and the men of the church laughed me right out of their confidence. My only request was that we build a chamber on the north side of the building (to the right of the platform) where the pipes of this seven-rank organ could be installed. To quote one of them, "Dick, you are a dreamer. Get real." Those of you who hold out for only a pipe organ may have little reason to include the huge majority of Christians who are in small or rural churches in your thinking, for they also do not "employ" people to play the organ. That is left to the best person in the church that God has provided them with sufficient skills to play the right notes at the right time. For alternatives, I could provide a small church with a fine digital organ (at MSRP) a 20-stop, one-manual divided-keyboard organ for only $3995.00. A small 19-stop, two-manual would cost only about $9,950.00, plus the cost of some external speakers. Even at these prices, a musical instrument of this cost is often unthinkable. If I am feeling generous and willing to megotiate a lesser price, a small church might be able to afford one of my more economical instruments. We will never know unless I can find some people who are willing to consider spending the money; ...that is the first consideration, not whether they can have a spiritual experience in worship (using the organ), for they have been getting along with only a piano for decades. F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: Bringing the AGO plans to life. From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:17:18 EDT Musicians: I need people who agree with my post, who are willing to sign a note, or = to help create a final draft of the letter, or distribute it to their local = AGO chapters, to please send me a private email. Simply say YES in the body = of the email-and also specify in which area you would like to help. If you want = to elaborate, feel free to do so. I have already sent notes to some AGO = people in Chicago, and have just begun my work. The more support we have, the more powerful the results will be. Maybe we could get an advocate from each = region, great lakes, NYC etc.... For example, I will be the Chicago region = advocate. Catch my drift? All you have to do is pass the word around to your colleagues and distribute the final draft of the letter to your = region/chapter. I am going to attempt to get it put in the TAO-eventually Please help to make a difference. We have nothing to lose, but a lot to = gain. Thanks in advance, Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: The ARTS channel From: <Pepehomer@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:25:05 -0400 For those of you that get the ARTS channel on your local cable service, = the current rotation has a segment on the construction of the organ in St. = Thomas' in Leipzig. Very interesting, considering the recent discussion! Justin Karch Organist, Holy Trinity LCMS Rome, GA
(back) Subject: This Part of the Country From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:30:58 -0500 Hello, Amy: You wrote: > My church is a small Lutheran church. I am the superintendant of Sunday > school and volunteer my time. We also had to let our secretary go in the > interest of cutting expenses and some retired ladies volunteer their time > for this. We also do not have a paid organist. Now if a church pays a > secretary, youth leader, gardener, etc. then by all means they should be > able to afford to pay an organist. There are not too many churches in this > part of the country that can do that except in the larger cities. > > Bud, I am sorry that you have been through so much. I believe that you are > very talanted and professional and deserve to be well paid. But know that > all pastors are not stupid and arrogant. Those I know are both Biblical > scholars and nice people who are appreciative of those of us who help them. > But maybe it is this part of the country. <grin> > > Amy May I add to that? The Northeast Corridor of the United States (between Washington, D.C., and Boston) is home to more than 40-percent of our people. That leaves about 98-percent of the vast territory outside the Notheast Corridor for the rest of us to live. Excluding the major metropolitan centers (home to 150,000 or more people, each), I identify this as rural America. The churches are small, often much smaller. We have real people, with real feelings, who need salvation in Jesus Christ, and belong to various churches. So, your part of the country is pretty much what I have been trying to describe for the past two weeks. Big-city ways are often beyond us, ...and maybe we have discovered satisfaction in our rural ways that are beyond the understanding of many big-city folks. That doesn't mean the big-city people are lacking; maybe, just uninformed. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: RE: Bringing the AGO plans to life. From: "Mari" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:55:07 -0400 Greg I have passed your first missive on this subject to the asst dean of our local chapter who's pretty pro-active in these things. Mari -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf Of Gfc234@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:17 AM To: email@example.com Subject: Bringing the AGO plans to life. Musicians: I need people who agree with my post, who are willing to sign a note, or to help create a final draft of the letter, or distribute it to their = local AGO chapters, to please send me a private email. Simply say YES in the = body of the email-and also specify in which area you would like to help. If = you want to elaborate, feel free to do so. I have already sent notes to some AGO people in Chicago, and have just begun my work. The more support we have, the more powerful the results will be. Maybe we could get an = advocate from each region, great lakes, NYC etc.... For example, I will be the Chicago region advocate. Catch my drift? All you have to do is pass the word around to your colleagues and distribute the final draft of the = letter to your region/chapter. I am going to attempt to get it put in the TAO-eventually Please help to make a difference. We have nothing to lose, but a lot to gain. Thanks in advance, Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs From: "John Nisbet" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:52:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Small Organs From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 17:44:16 -0700 Why not the Oberlinger Cabinet Organ for a 7 stop Pipe Organ? Starting at $59,000 for the Standard model, it is the greatest value for the smaller church, or choir organ: http://www.oberlinger.com/e-kabinettorgel.html . John Nisbet www.oberlinger.com/usa Bud wrote: [...] Somebody who actually has the Estey catalog please check my numbers, but for purposes of argument let's say a Estey Model L stock pipe organ, = six complete manual stops and one complete pedal stop, cost $1000 in 1900. Adjusted for inflation according to the Consumer Price Index, that same organ SHOULD have cost $20,756.01 in 2002. Yet a seven-stop pipe organ TODAY costs closer to $140,000.00. [...] Why CAN'T pipe organ builders mass-produce stock models of the = quality and durability of the hundreds of Hinners, Hook and Hastings, Erbens, Johnsons, Esteys, Mollers, Wicks (yes, Wicks!), Kimballs, Kilgens, Austens, etc. that are still doing yeoman service after a hundred years or more?
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:09:03 -0500 Hello, Bud: You asked a reasonable question: > Why has organ-building, both pipe and "other", FAR outstripped > the rate of inflation? This is not exclusive to organbuilding. The farmer produces a gallon of milk. The price that he gets for it may barely pay for his production costs, ...if he is lucky. The retail store gets at least $1.00 in their pocket, the difference between what they pay for it to put it on the shelves and the price we pay at the cash register. That, too, is outrageous inflation. So, let's don't be too quick to say that organbuilding has FAR outstripped the rate of inflation. The real question facing the organbuilders is a viable distribution system. Someone has to convince a church to buy the organs (however built) and someone has to install and tonally finish them. Showroom dealers for pipe organs, so I have been told, have been limited to a handful of well-financed music merchants, ...such as Lyon & Healy (sp?) of the past. IF there were a viable distribution system in place, and it worked to the financial benefit of an organbuilding factory, some organbuilder would do it. Organbuilders, those who make a reasonable return on their investment and stay in business, are also smart businessmen. I believe they have not seen any viable business opportunity in developing a business of mass-produced organs, ...or have I missed something in this picture? F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs From: "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:29:14 -0500 The very first OHS convention I attended I was amazed at the performances = given on one manual pipe organs. This instruments should not be dismissed lightly just because they don't have a myriad layers of teeth glaring at you. Most are very complete little instruments and are quite capable of performing a wide variety of repertoire. They are only limited by the organist and those with skill and imagination can get quite good results. = A church instrument is primarily intended to accompany the congregation for hymn sings and provide worshipful music otherwise. Most of these instruments perform this function very well. Funny how some musicians are = quite accepting of an electronic keyboard and at the same time prefer to overlook the qualities of a small organ. The richness of a one manual instrument was demonstrated to me again this summer when I heard a recital on the 1844 Kessler organ in the Lutheran Church in Sitka, Alaska. One of the members of this list asked recently = why anyone would build a one manual organ. The answer lies in the manner of construction of classical instruments where each manual represents a complete organ. When there is only resources for a single organ, a one manual instrument is produced. It has to be designed with more attention = to how to provide the best resources in the organ specification to serve its intended purpose. There is a fallacy that huge multi-manual organs are = hard to play...the truth is the smaller organs are really much more difficult and require more skill and ability to adapt to the organist. I have developed a fondness and respect for small organ and one manual organs in particular for the resources they have exhibiting the tremendous skill of the builder. This discussion has been very disheartening as it tends to direct us to lowering our expectations to the level of those who have little musical taste. Jon C. Habermaas
(back) Subject: disheartening From: <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 06:57:18 -0700 jch wrote: > This discussion has > been very disheartening as it tends to direct us to lowering our > expectations to the level of those who have little musical taste. > > Jon C. Habermaas > I too have found it disturbing, for a number of reasons. I have been called an elitist, a snob, and worse (privately). I would like to clarify something: I have NEVER, repeat NEVER had anything APPROACHING a first-class pipe organ at my disposal at ANY time during my long career. I have made music with the instruments I had, and the singers who presented themselves. BUT ... I have NEVER, EVER compromised my LITURGICAL or MUSICAL standards. If that's elitist/snobbery, so be it. As to the pleadings of poverty from small rural churches, an example: Mulberry, FL - population of the town, 2000 souls. Main industry: phosphate mining. Mulberry Methodist Church: don't recall the membership right now; I think the church seated around 100. Organ: a used Model L Estey, got second-hand from the Methodists in Bartow when somebody gave them the Aeolian out of Edward Bok's home in Lake Wales (the dude who built Bok Tower Gardens and the carillon). By the time the Mulberry Methodists started planning to build a new church, the Estey was pretty much worn out, after the manner of Esteys, which were built to play for a VERY long time, but are EXTREMELY difficult to repair, as any organ tech will tell you. An electronic substitute was never considered. Ever. From the MOMENT the Official Board uttered the words "new church", the Women's Society of Christian Service (WSCS) started collecting butter-and-egg money; they sold cookbooks; they held bake-sales; they had craft fairs, etc. etc. etc. I don't remember exactly when the church was built ... I think it was sometime in the 1960s or early 1970s ... I had already "gone North" to go to college. But at any rate, when the doors of the new church opened for the first service, there was a brand-spanking new 4-rank unit PIPE organ in the chancel, built by the "Florida Skinner" people: Diapason, Salicional, Flute, Dulciana at every imaginable pitch over two manuals and pedals. It wasn't as robust as the old Estey; I was sorry that they didn't re-use the Estey pipes. But they DID provide space for adding an independent Great as they raised the money. Rural Florida is dotted with small churches, and small pipe organs ... many were second-hand ... how a Hope-Jones CHURCH organ ever found its way to Central Florida is beyond me, but there it was. At least one Episcopal Church is still served by a VERY robust 2m/ped Estey REED organ, which has been passed down from church to church over the years as new missions are started. I did something similar for the Vicar of a mission in Alpine, CA, who was determined NOT to have an electronic. I found him a very nice 2m/ped Vocalion reed organ. Unfortunately a change in Vicars some years later consigned the Vocalion to a museum housed in a former church, replaced by a used Conn theatre "organ" (!). The Vocalion is still in regular use for weddings. Anyway ... regarding pipe organs: where there's a will, there's a way. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:01:07 +0800 Noone is lowering expectations Jon, and I have plenty of musical taste. IT is just a plain matter of economics. If a church can't afford a pipe organ they may buy the next best thing. Even those 7 stop organs cost a fortune which many churches cannot afford to pay. Anyhow this topic has now been drained to the last dreg. My last comment. (Who said "Hooray!"?) Bob. --This discussion has been very disheartening as it tends >to >direct us to lowering our expectations to the level of those who >have >little musical taste. > >Jon C. Habermaas > > >
(back) Subject: Re: Smm Organs--Artiste From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:04:43 -0500 Hello, Monty: You wrote: > The new Wicks organs being voiced by Bill Hamner are > fantastic... Wicks has a new Tonal Director? F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: Re: disheartening From: "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:11:21 -0500 At 06:57 AM 9/15/03 -0700, you wrote: Very good response and I heartily agree with your comments. I was getting = really tired of getting pelted with these endless posts about ..."Golly, = we got to roll over 'cuz this is the best we can get"...you said it guy...WHERE THERE'S A WILL...THERE'S A WAY... regards, Jon
(back) Subject: a question From: <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:16:47 -0700 I often hear that US churches are "wealthy" in comparison to Canada, Australia, and the UK. I wonder, though, how many of those churches preach (and practice) = TITHING? St. Matthew's was a wealthy parish, granted, but 75 people don't come up with $1 million to buy LAND, and fewer than 200 people $5 million dollars to build a CHURCH, unless the people TITHE, and they DID. We also SAW about 90 percent of them EVERY Sunday, which is UNHEARD-OF in most Episcopal/Anglican churches. Granted, it was a captive audience to a certain extent ... if they wanted the traditional Prayer Book services, we were the only game in = town. Despite the Rector-From-The-Pit-of-Heck-Itself, they were COMMITTED. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: Smm Organs--Artiste From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:17:32 -0700 Yepyepyep! Bill Hamner. Jon Sperling has (been) retired (chuckle). Cheers, Bud F Richard Burt wrote: > Hello, Monty: > > You wrote: > > >>The new Wicks organs being voiced by Bill Hamner are >>fantastic... > > > Wicks has a new Tonal Director? > > F. Richard Burt > > > . > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com > > >
(back) Subject: don't discount OLDER Wicks organs From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:29:32 -0700 I played a SUPERB little Wicks from the 1950s in a VERY reverberant Presbyterian (!) church in Lakeland, FL. The stoplist: SWELL (enclosed) 16' Quintadena - actually an all-purpose somewhat quinty Chimney Flute 8' Quintadena - 12 pipes 8' Salicional 8' Vox Celeste 4' Flute - 12 pipes 2 2/3 Nazard - derived 2' Flute - 12 pipes 8' Trompette 4' Clarion - 12 pipes GREAT (enclosed, separate box and chest) 8' Open Diapason 8' Melodia 8' Dulciana 4' Octave - independent 4' Flute - 12 pipes 4' Dulciana - 12 pipes 2 2/3' Dulciana - derived 2' Fifteenth - independent 2' Dulciana - 12 pipes 1 3/5' Dulciana - derived Mixture III - derived, I think PEDAL 16' Bourdon 16' Quintadena (sw) 8' Octave (gt) 8' Flute - (bourdon) - 12 pipes 4' Octave (gt) 4' Flute - (bourdon) - 12 pipes 16' Trombone - 12 pipes (sw) 8' Trompette - (sw) 4' Clarion (sw) There wasn't MUCH that little organ COULDN'T play ... the decomposed Dolce Cornet on the Great was a TREASURE ... together, it made a wonderful cantus firmus stop; individually, it could color the 8' Melodia several different ways. I could have wished for a Swell Oboe or a Great Clarinet; the Trompette was QUITE fiery, for the 1950s; but all in all the organ WORKED. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: Smm Organs--Artiste From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:41:45 EDT In a message dated 9/15/2003 10:06:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: > Wicks has a new Tonal Director? > > INDEED and a good one at that!! new blood running the company new ideas. Go hear one he has voiced. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: disheartening From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:42:26 EDT In a message dated 9/15/2003 10:09:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > ...WHERE THERE'S A WILL...THERE'S A WAY... As long as the will is a 6 figure donation earmarked for pipes only... dale in Florida