PipeChat Digest #3976 - Monday, September 15, 2003
 
Re: Hammond organs.....real or Memorex?????
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
RE: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890)
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: Hammond organs.....real or Memorex?????
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
tuning problem
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3973 - 09/15/03
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
Re: don't discount OLDER Wicks organs
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: tuning problem
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: Smm Organs--Artiste
  by "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net>
reed organs? REED ORGANS??!!
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
saving old organs
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
professional church musicians
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: Out of the closet!
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Hammond organs.....real or Memorex????? From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:25:21 EDT   In a message dated 9/15/2003 3:10:06 PM Central Daylight Time, ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com writes: That means dead organs are now supplying parts to keep others going. I suppose you could say that Hammond should keep on supplying parts, but I = am told that the cost of doing that is prohibitive. What you hear about Hammonds biting the dust simply isin't true. You put = a few drops of oil in them once a year, and call a service tech to address = major problems-they are virtually problem free. As far as parts no longer being =   availabe, that is not true either. If anyone needs the name of a master = b3 tech, let me know privately.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: RE: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890) From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:46:33 -0400   Sebastian,   That was a truly wonderful thing for you to do=2E I hope someone buys it soon and maybe they will hire you to do the rebuilding work and you can even make a buck off it=2E The people on this list who poo-pooed this org= an are probably the same people who favor electrics=2E good luck   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: TubaMagna@aol=2Ecom Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:09:17 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890)     Ladies and Gentlemen: To clarify the fate of Roosevelt opus 408 (with one rank originally built=20 for Opus 400 [The Chicago Auditorium Theatre]), I stopped discussing it o= n=20 the chatlists because so many people were enraged, called it junk, and use= d it=20 as a springboard to aver that nobody wanted it because electronics were=20=   superior=2E I was sickened and profoundly disappointed, so I dropped the subject=2E That=20 may be why Bud assumed that it had perished=2E It is truly not "saved" yet; it simply has been granted a stay of=20 execution=2E Among the many emails I received was from the president of an organ=20=   company who said, "If it's so important to you, why don't YOU buy it?"=20 With no=20 interest in historic preservation, they were obviously fed up with hearing=   about=20 it=2E So I DID buy it=2E =20 It was appalling that I was forced to purchase it, even though the church=20 authorities were ALSO willing to let it go down with the building=2E "Buy = it or=20 we'll destroy it" doesn't seem very spiritual to me=2E The pipework is exceptional, and is now safely in wooden crates and=20=   padded cartons=2E Basic scale measurements were taken during the removal process, and=20 pipemakers' marks and signatures were noted=2E The unmitered 16' Trombone with=20 wooden shallots, as well as the gargantuan Open Wood Diapason are all in the=20 same rented warehouse, for which I continue to pay=2E I am still stunned b= y how=20 my staff managed to do this, amidst acres of pigeon droppings, with no running=20 water, no electricity, no light, and blazing summer heat=2E Overtime on to= p of=20 NYC wages can be calculated, but that kind of understanding of the significance=20 of this instrument, and the gripping desire to save it, are things that I=20=   could not have purchased no matter how much I laid out=2E The organ is still available, but I was so stunned by the bitterness and=20 dismissiveness of people over this gem, that I have not attempted any public=20 offerings since then=2E Obviously, if it is not afforded a new home soon, = I=20 cannot continue to pour money into it, and will be forced to dispense with=   it=2E I am=20 sending photographs to a list member who I know is a fine,=20 preservation-conscious organbuilder, but even with a serious client's ear,=   such projects can=20 move at a glacial pace=2E Keith Bigger, who tends to the Steere in the Baptist Temple in Brooklyn,=20 is the one who called my attention to this organ and its impending doom=2E= He=20 put me in touch with the right people, and it was his insistent call to "d= o the=20 right thing" that got me over there to SEE it, rather than just saying, "yeah,=20 yeah=2E" He even tried to find free or inexpensive storage space for it,=20=   putting us in touch with "people who knew people," but alas, when those options ran=20 into obstacles, we went with storage that was secure, insured, and accessible,=20 despite the cost=2E Keith also drove by the church several times per week = to=20 make sure that it still had a roof, was unburned, and was not being slamme= d by a=20 wrecking ball before I had the faith to do my part=2E Organs get saved and restored in a variety of ways=2E With=20 $87,000,000,000=2E00 required for future bombs and battleships, the government is not going to=20 be granting funds for preserving our artistic heritage=2E Individuals, working=20 together, can do more than advocacy organizations, if they devote their energy=20 to constructive and nurturing projects, rather than to petty rumor, positioning=20 for power, or the quest for the quick, new, and average=2E For those on this list who are in the planning stages of a pipe organ=20=   project, or know of anybody who might be interested in saving this organ, please=20 let me know=2E As you may have surmised, I have no interest in making mon= ey on=20 this, otherwise, I would have sold it piecemeal from the church steps and=20=   washed my hands of the affair=2E I care little if my firm rebuilds it, or another=20 competent craftsman is selected, as long as this instrument is not butchered,=20 and is treated as the work of art it has been for the last 114 years=2E   With thanks, Sebastian M=2E Gluck New York City "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond organs.....real or Memorex????? From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:25:21 EDT   In a message dated 9/15/2003 3:10:06 PM Central Daylight Time, ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com writes: That means dead organs are now supplying parts to keep others going. I suppose you could say that Hammond should keep on supplying parts, but I = am told that the cost of doing that is prohibitive. What you hear about Hammonds biting the dust simply isin't true. You put = a few drops of oil in them once a year, and call a service tech to address = major problems-they are virtually problem free. As far as parts no longer being =   availabe, that is not true either. If anyone needs the name of a master = b3 tech, let me know privately.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: tuning problem From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:54:59 -0400   This question is for the builders on the list=2E I preside over a Wicks organ that had pipes in the trumpet rank that wouldn't sound=2E when I we= nt in the chamber I was surprised to see that the highest pipes(some of which=   were the onse not sounding) were not not reeds at all=2E The top 5 notes=   appeared to be flu pipes=2E They had the mouth in the middle and a sleeve= on the top and no sign of a reed or tuning wire and no ears=2E I was able to=   get them to sound by doing the dollar bill trick in the mouth to get the dust out, however was not able to figure out how to tune them=2E I tried moving the sleeve to no avain and there are no ears so didn't know what else to do=2E I don't know what Wicks was thinking by not completing the rank with all regualr reed pipes with tuning wires and such but it won't tune=2E do any of you bulders have any ideas about how to tune these pipe= s=2E=20 Thanks   Andrew   -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3973 - 09/15/03 From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:50:49 -0400   >Subject: RE: Out of the closet! >From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> >Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:57:19 -0400   >Hi,   >I often wonder why churches hire musicians, organists, soloists, who just >are there for the music, do not care for or about the faith, pontificate >about what is right and wrong about church music, etc.   >Surely the church's chief business is the Great Commission, in other = words >the message of redemption through Jesus Christ, not to be a concert hall, >or employ musicians who are otherwise unemployable.   >If you are an agnostic, atheist, or non-religious, maybe should setup = some >kind of organization, club or whatever, and do whatever pleases you, and = do >it to the glory of yourselves.   >In churches, surely, everything should be done to the glory of God, not >merely for a paycheck, or for your own enjoyment.   >Just my thoughts............   >Arie V.   Arie,   I'm a Unitarian with a practice and substituting arrangement on a nearby LCMS's Casavant which I adore and feel privileged to have access to. If = you are at all familiar with these respective demoninations, one could likely not find more extreme differences of theology and philosophy. I've grown quite fond of these Lutherans, even though I personally think they do many right things for wrong reasons. I respect their right to believe as they = do, I honor our shared regard for their musical traditions, and I have absolutely no problem with the concept of doing my best to enhance their worship. I don't have to believe their creed, or anyone else's, to do so.   Just another perspective,   Emily A.      
(back) Subject: Re: don't discount OLDER Wicks organs From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:37:51 -0700   As it happens, if you're in NY State, you're not far from a couple of master voicers who have great respect for the CONSTRUCTION (not the VOICING) of Wicks pipes from the 1950s ... I think you'd be quite startled at what CAN be done on-site in a relatively short period of time.   Contact me privately for names.   Cheers,   Bud   ameagher@stny.rr.com wrote: > Bud, > > The Wicks I play is from the 50's and there are some great stops but = most > are unevenly voiced. > > Andrew > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: quilisma@cox.net > Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:29:32 -0700 > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: don't discount OLDER Wicks organs > > > I played a SUPERB little Wicks from the 1950s in a VERY reverberant > Presbyterian (!) church in Lakeland, FL. > > The stoplist: > > SWELL (enclosed) > > 16' Quintadena - actually an all-purpose somewhat quinty Chimney Flute > 8' Quintadena - 12 pipes > 8' Salicional > 8' Vox Celeste > 4' Flute - 12 pipes > 2 2/3 Nazard - derived > 2' Flute - 12 pipes > 8' Trompette > 4' Clarion - 12 pipes > > GREAT (enclosed, separate box and chest) > > 8' Open Diapason > 8' Melodia > 8' Dulciana > 4' Octave - independent > 4' Flute - 12 pipes > 4' Dulciana - 12 pipes > 2 2/3' Dulciana - derived > 2' Fifteenth - independent > 2' Dulciana - 12 pipes > 1 3/5' Dulciana - derived > Mixture III - derived, I think > > PEDAL > > 16' Bourdon > 16' Quintadena (sw) > 8' Octave (gt) > 8' Flute - (bourdon) - 12 pipes > 4' Octave (gt) > 4' Flute - (bourdon) - 12 pipes > 16' Trombone - 12 pipes (sw) > 8' Trompette - (sw) > 4' Clarion (sw) > > There wasn't MUCH that little organ COULDN'T play ... the decomposed > Dolce Cornet on the Great was a TREASURE ... together, it made a > wonderful cantus firmus stop; individually, it could color the 8' > Melodia several different ways. > > I could have wished for a Swell Oboe or a Great Clarinet; the Trompette > was QUITE fiery, for the 1950s; but all in all the organ WORKED. > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: tuning problem From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:41:05 -0500   It is normal to have reed stops completed with flues at the top. Very = small reeds are difficult to make, voice, and maintain. The "dollar bill trick" = is for the tongue of reed pipes. I have never heard of using it to clean = flue pipes. Since you have these problems, why don't you call your organ technician?. I think this would save endless frustration and perhaps = damage to these pipes. Roy Redman   "ameagher@stny.rr.com" wrote:   > This question is for the builders on the list. I preside over a Wicks > organ that had pipes in the trumpet rank that wouldn't sound. when I = went > in the chamber I was surprised to see that the highest pipes(some of = which > were the onse not sounding) were not not reeds at all. The top 5 notes > appeared to be flu pipes. They had the mouth in the middle and a sleeve = on > the top and no sign of a reed or tuning wire and no ears. I was able to > get them to sound by doing the dollar bill trick in the mouth to get the > dust out, however was not able to figure out how to tune them. I tried > moving the sleeve to no avain and there are no ears so didn't know what > else to do. I don't know what Wicks was thinking by not completing the > rank with all regualr reed pipes with tuning wires and such but it won't > tune. do any of you bulders have any ideas about how to tune these = pipes. > Thanks > > Andrew > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Smm Organs--Artiste From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:43:46 -0500   > > > The new Wicks organs being voiced by Bill Hamner are > > fantastic... > > Wicks has a new Tonal Director? > > F. Richard Burt   New Tonal Director appointed: http://www.wicks.com/organ/news/archive/2002/100902.htm almost old news! :)   Brent Johnson ORGANLive - Music of the organ on demand www.organlive.com    
(back) Subject: reed organs? REED ORGANS??!! From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:49:45 -0700   I want somebody to take an Estey EPRO (electro-pneumatic reed organ ... their "concert model") and a Mustel harmonium and go back to the drawing board and see what they can come up with.   The Estey electro-pneumatic key action solved the problem of squishy reed-organ keyboards; with electro-pneumatic action, it was also possible to have both inter and intra manual couplers without increasing the weight of the touch, and octave extensions of individual stops. The original stop action was slow, but that could be remedied by making the tubes slightly larger and raising the wind-pressure just a TAD (grin).   It is said that in a good acoustic, a Mustel harmonium can be mistaken for a Cavaille-Coll orgue de choeur (!). Surely that would be suitable for most churches (grin) ... combine that sound with modern electric action (or not ... your choice), and you'd have a musical instrument of integrity for which a LARGE body of literature WAS written.   The documentation of Estey's assembly-line methods and voicing machines is still at least partly extant. Surely there's a viable alternative to electronic substitutes in there SOMEWHERE.   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:18:05 EDT   In a message dated 9/15/2003 3:10:51 PM Central Daylight Time, ray_ahrens@msn.com writes: Please take this catfight somewhere else! Mr. Ahern, The conclusion of my post stated that it was my FINAL post on the subject. But thanks for your concern.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: saving old organs From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:02:11 -0500   List, Here are my 2 cents worth on what Mr. Gluck did in New York. = Good for you!! I know exactly how you feel too when it comes to these old beasts that are ready for the dump. My organ project started that way 7 years ago. I had been the organist in this church in Pontiac, Il when I = was in high school and college. It is a 1906 Estey, opus no. 290. A new building was built and the pipework removed to be installed later. (Don't get me started as to what happened to the quarter sawn oak case and blower etc.) The church had the pipework in storage at the new building and had = no money to rebuild it. I was called and was told. "Gary, since you were the last to play this thing, you can have it or we will throw it out in the garbage." Well, the rest is history and I have it at home. No, it is not a significant organ, not huge, but an early Estey would have gone by the wayside if I hadn't done what I did. I don't regret a minute of the time and anguish this has caused. So, Sebastian, good for you, there will be a star in your crown for this. Gary      
(back) Subject: professional church musicians From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:09:32 -0700   >>Subject: RE: Out of the closet! >>From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> >>Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:57:19 -0400 > > >>Hi, > > >>I often wonder why churches hire musicians, organists, soloists, who = just >>are there for the music, do not care for or about the faith, pontificate >>about what is right and wrong about church music, etc. > > >>Surely the church's chief business is the Great Commission, in other = words >>the message of redemption through Jesus Christ, not to be a concert = hall, >>or employ musicians who are otherwise unemployable. > > >>If you are an agnostic, atheist, or non-religious, maybe should setup = some >>kind of organization, club or whatever, and do whatever pleases you, and = do >>it to the glory of yourselves. > > >>In churches, surely, everything should be done to the glory of God, not >>merely for a paycheck, or for your own enjoyment. > > >>Just my thoughts............ > > >>Arie V. > >   Extremely harsh words, Arie.   For the record, I am a life-long practicing Episcopalian of the anglo-catholic ("High Church") party; I seldom stray much beyond the RC-Anglican-Missouri Synod Lutheran orbit in my church posts.   I have told the story MANY times about how many converts we had from my PROFESSIONAL, PAID choir of SERIOUS pagans when I was organist/choirmaster at Old St. Mary's RC Church in Cincinnati. You can't be exposed to that liturgy week after week, year after year, without SOMETHING rubbing off.   When my choir at St. Matthew's blew up about paid singers, I said, "why don't you try being NICE to them and welcoming them as brothers and sisters in CHRIST, rather than looking for nit-picky things to fuss about ('she moved my music stand', etc.) ... you just MIGHT make some converts."   My paid ringers were mostly college students trying to make ends meet .... the vast majority were lapsed RCs who couldn't stand the modern RC liturgy, and LOVED our old-fashioned high Anglican service.   But, no, they didn't see it that way, even though the chanter and his fiance were planning to be confirmed and marry in the church. Instead, they blew them out of the water, fired everybody (including me), caused a lot of hurt feelings, and virtually ASSURED that those kids WON'T darken the door of a church again, at least not an Anglican church.   I REALLY resent the comment about "musicians who are otherwise unemployable." I gave up a promising career as a concert pianist to go into church music. And church music has kept a roof over my head and food on the table for fifty years (more-or-less). I'm CERTAINLY *not* unemployable, or at least I wasn't, until I had two strokes and two heart attacks.   IF I could find a church that gave a damn about handicapped access, I COULD still play. St. Matthew's DIDN'T.   I'm fairly conversant with Holy Scripture ... isn't there something in there about "the laborer is worthy of his hire"? And didn't Jesus tell the Disciples to shake the dust off their sandals if a community wouldn't receive them?   PART of the Great Commission IS to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, care for the widows and orphans, empower the poor, bury the dead, etc. Yet seemingly most churches can't find it in their hearts to do that for their own employees, and the problem is spreading to the ordained ministry as well.   In the Anglican Catholic Church, we see ads for "full-time rector" for $25K per annum (!). The Lutheran Church (ELCA) is having SERIOUS problems filling their pulpits for the same reason. NOBODY can live on $25K per annum and raise a family and send the kids to college ... NOBODY. Vocations in the RC church have virtually dried up, not only because of celibacy, but because of the lack of benefits, retirement, etc. There are elderly Roman Catholic monks and nuns on WELFARE today.   *I* could live on $34K because I'm single and I have a partner and two kids who are also contributing to the household. If I'd been alone, I couldn't have ... not in Orange County CA where a very ORDINARY one-bedroom flat with NO amenities rents for $1000/mo.   Yet my congregation criticized me because I didn't have fine clothes and a fine car and belong to the Beach and Tennis Club.   Cheers,   Bud, a professional church musician, and damn proud of it!      
(back) Subject: RE: Out of the closet! From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:05:26 -0400   Colin Mitchell writes:   > Aled Jones, interviewing two of the "Sixteen" (an eighth by any other = name).   > "Don't you feel the presence of God when you sing Bach?"   That's the first I've heard of Aled Jones for a long time. What/how is = he doing these days? (In the early 1980s he was a chorister=20 of Bangor Cathedral who went on to a brilliant independent career as a = solo treble.)   Colin has made a point similar to the one I'd like to make. I do happen = to be a churchman in good standing and to call myself a believer. But I = have little patience with a dualistic mentality that would neatly = divide, or assume that it is important to do so,=20 the faithless from the infidel on the basis of subscription to a verbal = formula. And it beats me how anyone who loves and understands music the = way we're supposed to do would put much stock in the meaning of such a = recitation, especially in that some of our greatest exemplars from = Mozart and Beethoven to Howells and Rorem, were not always comfortable = with it. Aren't those who make it a _sine qua non_ for the state of = someone else's soul kidding themselves? If we have any faith in the = value of music at all, then we must believe that it gives us some unique = insight into how things are, which is to say that some things that are = cannot be expressed in words. =20   Even those who do say the creed can mean many various things by it. A = recent Archbishop of Canterbury mentally prefaced "I believe" with "I = agree to act as if." Was he a believer or not? Did his faith differ in = kind from that of thousands of others? Far be it from any of us to = guess.   As Bud said, skilled singers and other musicians deserve to be paid, and = I can't see the world's big-wheel mover-and-shakers bothering with a = several-hours-weekly commitment that pays them $5-$50. So we're talking = about relatively needy and powerless people: primarily college students = (as Bud says), or even younger choristers. Nor can I believe that they = are doing the job *just* for such amounts of money, even if they tell = you that, or even tell themselves that. They believe in something more = than the not-so-almighty dollar, or they wouldn't do it well. You might = not find them first entering your church as members thereof, but they = are impressionable. =20   So, since when does the Great Commission (which someone invoked as an = argument for stinting the music program) counsel aloofness or separation = from such folk? Instead of turning your nose up at them because they're = "not members", or treating them as mere "functionaries" (to use Father = John Andrew's term, by which he lamented a tendency in his clerical = colleagues in New York) I'd think that we ought to rejoice in their = presence as an opportunity to show them by example what this = Christian-faith thing means. Lord knows there's plenty of = misunderstanding to be corrected out there. Then gently err, if that's = what it is, on the side of inclusion rather than exclusion, make = straight the way of the Lord, and have confidence that their coming in, = while not necessary to your relationship, is the most natural thing in = the world. That is the way conversions occur in our church, right, Bud? = Even in cases when they do not, cynicism should at least yield to = sympathy and thoughtfulness.   I recall George Norman Tucker, legendary choirmaster of Saint Luke's = Church, Kalamazoo, Mich. describing his large men and boys program in = 1969, similar to many others across the country that the church could = boast back then. He could pay them only a ridiculous pittance, but he = insisted on doing so as a matter of principle. He brought boys in by = the dozens who were not parishioners and taught them everything they = needed to know-- musical, liturgical, explanatory-- for doing their job = of singing "with the spirit and with the understanding". Meanwhile he = provided them with a social structure in which they could grow up = feeling secure and nourished, and treated them like human beings. All = he did by way of *overt* evangelism was to announce, every year before = the bishops's visitation, that the rector was beginning his annual = confirmation classes, and would anyone interested please talk to him = after the rehearsal. Every year several choristers would respond, = attend the classes, and be confirmed. Their families often followed. =20   The church was growing in those days.