PipeChat Digest #3977 - Tuesday, September 16, 2003
 
Re: reed organs? REED ORGANS??!!
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: Out of the closet!
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: tuning problem reply
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: tuning problem
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
The Unitarian Church
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Random thoughs
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Re: professional church musicians
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
RE: Out of the closet!
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890)
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Help, please!
  by "Stanley Littleton" <slittles@earthlink.net>
Re: Small Organs
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
RE: disheartening
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Reservoir Building
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: Small Organs
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890)
  by "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net>
Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890)
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Survey - thanks to all who participated
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
RE: What Makes an Organ so Expensive?
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Geneology
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: Survey - thanks to all who participated
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: tuning problem
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Postings Coming around Again
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: professional church musicians
  by "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com>
Re: professional church musicians
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3973 - 09/15/03
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: reed organs? REED ORGANS??!! From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:17:12 -0400   At 03:49 PM 2003-09-15 -0700, you wrote: >I want somebody to take an Estey EPRO (electro-pneumatic reed organ ... >their "concert model") and a Mustel harmonium and go back to the drawing >board and see what they can come up with. > >The Estey electro-pneumatic key action solved the problem of squishy >reed-organ keyboards; with electro-pneumatic action, it was also possible =   >to have both inter and intra manual couplers without increasing the = weight >of the touch, and octave extensions of individual stops. The original = stop >action was slow, but that could be remedied by making the tubes slightly >larger and raising the wind-pressure just a TAD (grin). > >It is said that in a good acoustic, a Mustel harmonium can be mistaken = for >a Cavaille-Coll orgue de choeur (!). Surely that would be suitable for >most churches (grin) ... combine that sound with modern electric action >(or not ... your choice), and you'd have a musical instrument of = integrity >for which a LARGE body of literature WAS written. > >The documentation of Estey's assembly-line methods and voicing machines = is >still at least partly extant. Surely there's a viable alternative to >electronic substitutes in there SOMEWHERE. > >Cheers, > >Bud   Bud,   Of course, electronic substitutes are the great enemy. Keep looking for that viable alternative. Maybe a quartet of mouth organs in your future. A collection of auto harps. If the literature wasn't written for =   them, at least it can be transcribed for these wonderful instruments. Of course anything, anything but a digi-org.   Unfortunately for you, the world seems to have a different opinion. Electronic organs are here to stay. Pipe organs are better, and =   they are here to stay as well, just servicing a different market.   I would doubt that very many reed organs suit very many church situations. I replaced one last year, and this reed organ was huge, full console, full pedalboard, with a pipe organ blower. It was loud, ugly, = out of tune, and troublesome. After being told 15 years ago, that this was = the way to go, and spending $10,000 to get, they were constantly getting work done it, by different people, and at the end of the day, was still unsatisfactory. I have seen smaller pump organs, that would also not = serve a church very well.   I do understand that there were reeds organs built that were musically good, but I don't know how many of these survive today, and whether there are very many knowledgeable people around to fix them up.   Arie V.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263      
(back) Subject: Re: Out of the closet! From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:23:09 EDT   In a message dated 9/15/2003 6:07:50 PM Central Daylight Time, PEMMONS@wcupa.edu writes: They believe in something more than the not-so-almighty dollar, or they wouldn't do it well. Yes, the almighty resume.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: tuning problem reply From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:20:10 EDT   In a message dated 9/15/2003 6:08:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ameagher@stny.rr.com writes:     > I tried > moving the sleeve to no avain and there are no ears so didn't know what > else to do. I don't know what Wicks was thinking by not completing the > rank with all regualr reed pipes with tuning wires and such but it won't > tune. do any of you bulders have any ideas about how to tune these = pipes. > Thanks >   It is normal practice by ALL builders to use flue pipes for the top octave = of any 8' trumpte (class) rank. They are usually very generaously scaled with = a wide mouth and heavily nicked in organs from that period (mid 50's).   To tune them you need to be sure that there is no obstruction in either = the flue or the toe hole, and that the action magnets are opening sufficiently = to allow enough air to make the pipes speak properly. the pipes can be iether =   tuned to another pitch rank (like the Salicional) or tuned to the octave = below. The slides may only need to be moved very slightly OR they may need to be = moved a lot, it jsut depends, and a professional tuner would only need a few = short minutes to accomplish this task. If the pitch is way off (or seemingly so) = you can tune the pipes flat (move the slides so that the resonating length of = the pipe is longer) the slowly, gently sharpen the pitch till you hear the = beats slow down and eventually stop. when the pipes are way off pitch, you will = hear a "buzz" rather than a clean pitch. BTW, DON'T touch the pipes with your = hands as the body heat will cause the pipes to come into false tune and the = pitch will change as the pipe body cools to room temperature.   One other thought. IF the organ is under contract to a maintenance firm, = stay out of the organ chambers unless you have cleared with that firm that it = is ok for you to go in there. Some companies take a dim view of free-access = to organ chambers, and you may be in violation of their contract requirements = that only 'authorized' persons enter the organ chambers. (this is for their protection as well as the church's.)   Rick in VA    
(back) Subject: Re: tuning problem From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:41:52 -0400   > do any of you builders have any ideas about how to tune these pipes. >Thanks   >Andrew   AHHH? That's where you use a Tuning Cone!   It's a large piece of paper folded into a cone shape. You wear it on your head and sit in the corner while your Organ Tuner fixes the mess you made.     Nelson. Who has taught many a student this way.           --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 01-Sep-03    
(back) Subject: The Unitarian Church From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:49:34 -0400   If that's the worst that gets hurled at me, I'm safe. I have great = respect for the UC, but I never hesitate to poke fun at that which I respect. I certainly did not intend any offence, Roy. The Unitarian church = provided me the venue for the premier of my first completed chamber work 30-odd years ago. It was a woodwind quartet, based on the names of the four beautiful = girls who played the two flutes, oboe, and bassoon. It became their signature = piece, and I thought for sure I'd get at least one of the girls for all my = effort. I didn't. Junior high school - what can I say?   Both my sons have expressed a keen interest in the UC, having grown up in = an inquiring household.   -WG   > "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> > > Yes, thank God for the Unitarians. We will take all honest seekers, = agnistics, > atheists, etc. but please do not put us in the category of the non = religious. > After all this is the church of many outstanding saints from the past, > including the brothers Hook, who built one of their finest for their = home > church, the Unitarian church in Jamaica Plain., Mas. > Roy Redman > > Walter Greenwood wrote: > > > Or just get a job at a Unitarian church. ;-) > > > > ducking low, > > WG    
(back) Subject: Random thoughs From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:49:47 -0400   Some random thoughts engendered by my recent lurking on this list.   Re: tuning problem. As Roy Redman says or implies, no one builds reed stops that are reeds all the way to the top; it probably isn't possible. Call your tuner; with pipes that small, permanent damage can happen in an instant if you're not careful. Bigger pipes take longer to ruin.   Re: Sebastian's rescue mission. I concur with the cries of "bully for him". It's nice to know that there is someone else around who puts his money where his mouth is.   Re: Bud's rant. A Hearty Amen to that. The pompous twits, whether clerical or lay, who say "Do it for God." miss the whole point. Our whole lives are supposed to be "for God", both from the stewardship and the evangelistic points of view. So, when the twits are willing to put THEIR money where their mouth is, then I might consider following their example. In the mean time, all other things being equal, I'll take the job which pays me more money, every time. Case closed.   Re: Estey organs. I wonder what happened to the pipework that was in the Estey as renovated by Kilgen that used to be at Holy Trinity R.C. Church, West 82nd Street, NYC? It was replaced a few years ago by a LeTourneau. I seriously doubt that Fernand used any of the pipework, and it would cause me to question his sanity if he used any of the chests (except maybe the offsets). Anybody know?   david baker    
(back) Subject: Re: professional church musicians From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:53:07 EDT   Bud,   I hope that your sincere and succinct reply to this old canard about professional church musicians (especially paid vocal soloists) "only being = in it for the money" puts this whole subject to rest.   In my scant 15 years of professional church musicianship I have been lucky =   enough to work with or hire only highly skilled musicians who also were = men and women of faith. Serving the church does not preclude one from asking for a =   raise--especially when one is a professional church musician! Again, thank = you for your post and your committment to service in the face of adversity and =   struggle.   Pax Tecum, Bill H.    
(back) Subject: RE: Out of the closet! From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:01:45 -0400   Emily, it was I, not Arie, who took the cheap shot at the Unitarian = Church, and I apologize for that. I would actually fit right in there were I not so = happy where I am.   -WG   > "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> wrote:   > Arie, > > I'm a Unitarian with a practice and substituting arrangement on a nearby > LCMS's Casavant which I adore and feel privileged to have access to. If = you > are at all familiar with these respective demoninations, one could = likely > not find more extreme differences of theology and philosophy. I've grown > quite fond of these Lutherans, even though I personally think they do = many > right things for wrong reasons. I respect their right to believe as they = do, > I honor our shared regard for their musical traditions, and I have > absolutely no problem with the concept of doing my best to enhance their > worship. I don't have to believe their creed, or anyone else's, to do = so. > > Just another perspective, > > Emily A.    
(back) Subject: Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890) From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:16:03 EDT   In a message dated 9/15/2003 6:09:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ameagher@stny.rr.com writes:   > The people on this list who poo-pooed this organ > are probably the same people who favor electrics   saucer of milk anyone?   anyway, THanks Master Gluck--- good luck--someone is out there---hope you can hang in there.   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Help, please! From: "Stanley Littleton" <slittles@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:25:55 -0500   Does anyone know the specification of the Kilgen at Academy of the Sacred Heart in New Orleans?   A Google search revealed that the instrument was seen on an OHS tour some years ago.   Perhaps someone might have the program and be willing to look up the spec?   Any leads appreciated ...   Stan in Marianna --   "God made so many different kinds of people -- why would he allow only one way to serve Him?" ~ Martin Buber      
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:28:13 +0800   Thank you Alan,. I found the discussion very stimulating but I doubt whether anyone's mind was changed by the arguments put forward!! Regards, Bob.   ---- Original Message ---- From: acfreed0904@earthlink.net To: pipechat@pipechat.org, Subject: Re: Small Organs Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:08:52 -0400   >On 9/15/03 10:01 AM, "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> wrote: > >> Anyhow this topic has now been drained to the last dreg. My last >> comment. (Who said "Hooray!"?) > >Bob: Not I. The whole exchange, both the "give" and the "take," >has been >very instructive to me. And I appreciated (I think) every post on >the >subject. > >Alan >    
(back) Subject: RE: disheartening From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:42:36 +0800   A reed organ better than an electronic organ? I would take issue with that. I played reed organs in churches for years when I was young. I would not wish them on my worst enemy in the light of the availability of good electronic organs today. The electronics are far superior in sound, and they stay in tune. The best sounding reed organs I ever played were French harmoniums, and those are collectors' items these days and cost a fortune. Howver I don't know one church in this state that still uses a reed organ.   I played one a number of times is a small West Australian town. It had belonged to Dom Morena of the Benedictine Abbey in New Norcia West Australia. It had a 32' Great and a swell which had a Voix Celeste apparently using reeds with two tongues slightly offtuned. It sounded very good but there was no pedal organ, and you needed the legs of an Olympic athlete to pump the thing. The 32' great was not a good idea and most of the time I played up an octave to get rid of the mud.   One of the problems with reed organs was dumb notes and I guess I probably fixed hundreds of this problem. Usually a small piece of dust got stuck under a reed tongue. It was a common problem but easy to fix.   Another reed organ I played in the 1940s was a two manual and pedal Estey. It was quite good, but......   No I was pleased to say goodbye to reed organs. Give me a good electronic organ any day. Bob Elms.   ---- Original Message ----   >> One Episcopal Church is still served by a VERY robust 2m/ped >Estey REED organ, which has been passed down from church to church >over the years as new missions are started.      
(back) Subject: Reservoir Building From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:42:28 EDT   Sorry, I'm posting to both lists because I know that there are = those experienced in the technical aspects of pipe organs that don't lurk the diyapason list.   Does anybody have much experience in actually building a reservoir from scratch? I need two more reservoirs for my project which should be = about 24" x 30-36". I have a 30 x 42 with an internal curtain valve that I = could copy. It doesn't need to be releathered, so I wouldn't be able to take it =   completely apart.   Thanks, Keith    
(back) Subject: Re: Small Organs From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:08:11 EDT   In a message dated 9/15/2003 8:29:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobelms@westnet.com.au writes:   > found the discussion very stimulating but I doubt > whether anyone's mind was changed by the arguments put forward   as it should be.     you would never know we all do the same thing would you?   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890) From: "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:09:10 -0500   Hi All... You are probably exactly right .The ones who disparaged this = fine organ are almost certainly electronic substitute supporters . Incomprehensible how some small minds function. B.A.F.      
(back) Subject: Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890) From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:31:04 -0400   Hi All... You are probably exactly right .The ones who disparaged this = fine organ are almost certainly electronic substitute supporters . Incomprehensible how some small minds function. B.A.F.   B.A.F., please explain the logic of this statment.   Also, please tell us what you heard when you visited this organ that makes = it possible for you to describe it as a fine organ.   Small minds be damned! Hear, hear!   N.A....oh, sorry, noel jones    
(back) Subject: Survey - thanks to all who participated From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:38:10 -0400   34 of you pipe-chatters were kind enough to respond to a survey, pitting = the organ you are playing today against any other organ you have played in = your career as a church organist in a church.   Not the best organ you have ever played, but the best one you have played = in a regular position.   The group averaged 31 years experience as a church organists.   Surprisingly enough, dissatisfaction reigned as 20 stated that the organ = they are playing today is not the finest organ they have played in a church = position in their career.   All but one of the 34 are playing pipe organs at this time.   It's sort of dismal to look forward to one's final years playing an = instrument not quite up to others we have enjoyed...   noel jones    
(back) Subject: RE: What Makes an Organ so Expensive? From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:52:22 -0400   F. Richard Burt asks:   >> What makes a new pipe organ so darned expensive?? =20 > One very simple, yet complex, answer: =20 > The beast is labor intensive. Labor has become one of=20 the most expensive commodities on the American market. =20 > The cost of living continues to spiral upwards, and=20 we have to pay people reasonable wages to keep them.   This is true. But we might also mention the cost of raw materials, = especially metal.   Have you noticed how many products are made of plastic nowadays that = used to be made of wood or metal? The plastic equivalents are still = reasonably priced, and the "mass market" has quietly become acclimated = to them. But if you still want the metal versions, and can find them at = all, you are liable to discover that their prices have equally quietly = gone through the roof.   I don't know enough economics to be able to make reliable conclusions as = to questions such as "how much more expensive are pipe organs now than = in 1900, or 1800, or 1700, in terms of the average parishioner's = purchasing power?" If we put it that way, we might find that the price = has not increased that much. Despite having read Orpha Oche's book, I = don't know who paid for the big Cavaille-Colls in France: their = existence seems to be a miracle. But in many other cases in Europe, = organs were possible either because of ancient endowments or assistance = from the state. If popular donations were all that were available, many = of them would never have been built. Andrew Carnegie was as famous for = giving organs in Britain as for giving public libraries in America. = Even today, Europeans are not accustomed to giving financial support to = the church the way Americans have long done. =20   Instead of asking "what makes an organ so expensive" it might be = spiritually instructive to ask, "what makes so many other things so = cheap"? The anwer will almost invariably lie either in the fact that = many other people in the world are so much poorer than we are (hence we = members of the developed world, the elite, can pay them for a fraction = of what we would have to pay one another) or in the fact that their = manufacture and operation depend on non-renewable sources of energy. In = either case, the explanation is more disturbing than reassuring, in = terms of whether the status quo is ideal, normal, or lasting. Perhaps = the price of an organ, an artifact that has changed less in its basic = raw materials and construction than almost anything else over several = centuries, is historically more of a benchmark for comparison than an = anomaly.        
(back) Subject: Re: Geneology From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:53:47 -0400   Yeah; bad typing error!!   Karl   On 9/15/03 5:29 PM, "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> wrote:   > Do you mean AGFA? > > >> "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> >> >> Related to this: >> >> Descendants of Mendelssohn ran the Afka firm in Germany which makes >> camera film. >> >> One of Mendelssohn's descendants came to America and taught at , if = I >> recall correctly, Bryn Mawr College. >> >> Karl E. Moyer >> Lancaster PA > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Survey - thanks to all who participated From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:56:34 -0400   Sorry I missed seeing the survey, would have been glad to respond. When = did it go out?     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu         on 9/15/03 9:38 PM, noel jones at gedeckt@usit.net wrote:   > 34 of you pipe-chatters were kind enough to respond to a survey, pitting = the > organ you are playing today against any other organ you have played in = your > career as a church organist in a church. > > Not the best organ you have ever played, but the best one you have = played in a > regular position. > > The group averaged 31 years experience as a church organists. > > Surprisingly enough, dissatisfaction reigned as 20 stated that the organ = they > are playing today is not the finest organ they have played in a church > position > in their career. > > All but one of the 34 are playing pipe organs at this time. > > It's sort of dismal to look forward to one's final years playing an = instrument > not quite up to others we have enjoyed... > > noel jones > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: tuning problem From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:09:36 -0500   Hi, Andrew: You wrote: > The top 5 notes appeared to be flu pipes... Common practice by most pipe builders. What I do not understand is why the tuning collars have no effect. Listening to what others know about this problem. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: Postings Coming around Again From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:29:25 -0500   Hi, Paul: You wrote: - - - - - F. Richard Burt asks:   >> What makes a new pipe organ so darned expensive?? Whoa. Something is wrong here. I answered the question with: > One very simple, yet complex, answer: > The beast is labor intensive. Labor has become one of the most expensive commodities on the American market. > The cost of living continues to spiral upwards, and we have to pay people reasonable wages to keep them.   Someone else wrote: This is true. But we might also mention the cost of raw materials, especially metal. <and so forth> This is the second time around for several letters posted to PipeChat. Many of these came more than once today. Anyone else see this? F. Richard Burt ..  
(back) Subject: Re: professional church musicians From: "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:08:22 -0500   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: professional church musicians From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:21:38 -0700   I was given a choice: resign, or be fired.   Bud   Ray Ahrens wrote:   > > > >But, no, they didn't see it that way, even though the chanter and > >his fiance were planning to be confirmed and marry in the church. > >Instead, they blew them out of the water, fired everybody (including > >me), > > I'm confused. Didn't you give them notice and they waived the customary =   > 30 day period, or, did you quit because you were too ill? I'm wondering =   > why the story doesn't remain uniform. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! > <http://g.msn.com/8HMMENUS/2740??PS=3D> "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" = PipeChat: > A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : > http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3973 - 09/15/03 From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:12:22 -0500   And don't forget Ernest M. Skinner.   John Speller   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 4:10 PM Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3973 - 09/15/03     > Yes, thank God for the Unitarians. We will take all honest seekers, agnistics, > atheists, etc. but please do not put us in the category of the non religious. > After all this is the church of many outstanding saints from the past, > including the brothers Hook, who built one of their finest for their = home > church, the Unitarian church in Jamaica Plain., Mass.