PipeChat Digest #3979 - Tuesday, September 16, 2003 Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief by "MusicMan" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Bach in the closet by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Re: professional church musicians by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices by <Steskinner@aol.com> RE: Random thoughs by "Andrew Mead" <email@example.com> Re: expense of pipe organs by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: : expense of pipe organs by "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890) by "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: expense of pipe organs by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: PipeChat Digest #3977 - 09/16/03 by "Walter Greenwood" <email@example.com> Re: expense of pipe organs by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: professional church musicians by "Randolph Runyon" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: professional church musicians by <email@example.com> Re: expense of pipe organs by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Random thoughs by "bobelms" <email@example.com> enough is enough by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: enough is enough by "jch" <email@example.com> Re: enough is enough by <JBuckOrganist@aol.com> vet fees by "Dr. Amy Fleming" <firstname.lastname@example.org> fugue? invention? by "Dr. Amy Fleming" <email@example.com> Re: enough is enough by "Bob Conway" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief From: "MusicMan" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:56:44 +0100 I just LOVE the sound of the Hammond - just can't get enough of it. I = even invested in Roland's V series keyboard just to add to my ensemble = so I can rejoice in that wonderful sound. When I can afford it, I will indulge myself with a retirement present - = the 'proper' Hammond .. in the real wood box .. and the Leslie speaker = cabinet to go with it. "Next year.......in Jerusalem" 'Til then, I'll keep on playing my pipe organ. Harry [a.k.a. musicman] -----Original Message----- From: Gfc234@aol.com <Gfc234@aol.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org <email@example.com> Date: 14 September 2003 09:32 Subject: Re: Pure Hammond - Mischief =20 =20 Maybe@pipcom,=20 Joey DeFrancesco is a musical genius, a wizard, and I have nothing = but respect, awe, and admiration for his playing. If i didn't, I = wouldn't spend 80 bucks for me and my gal to see him every time he came = to Chicago. The proof is in the pudding. No one can play it like = him-and i see NO need to bother him, or Hammond with this petty garbage. = I would like to know why you are getting so upset with my opinions, = and making personal attacks? I don't even know your name! I just like = the old stuff, and gave reasons to validate my opinions. Plus, the new = ones are selling for more than 25 grand. You can buy a really nice car, = or make a down payment on a home for that kind of cash. Now I don't = know about you, but I can't think of many guys who could afford = something like that, especially in this economy. There isin't even = enough work out there for the most wonderful playing cats to pay their = bills, and support their modest lifestyles. It would take 2 or 3 years = worth of high-paying (possible dictionary definition of an oxymoron) B3 = gigs to pay for that. Furthermore, the best high- bread gig in Chicago = is at the Green Mill, which has one of Dan Trudell's old B3's. By the = time you finally paid it off, Hammond will have developed an even = better one. They are certainly on the right track, but technology = develops so fast these days that its impossible to win, especially when = the stakes are so high. What's the harm in saying that? I'm not trying to be nasty at all! This started as a friendly = little debate, just like all the other debates that take place on this = list. Unfortunately this one has gotten WAY too hot and emotional for = me. Therefore, this will be my final post on the subject. I sincerely = hope no one has been offended. I also hope you feel the same way. = Please feel free to email me privately, any time you wish, so that we = can have a friendlier, more positive correspondence, and maybe even come = to some sort of agreement on this mess we have made. May the waters = calm. Hoping to resolve- Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile firstname.lastname@example.org p.s.=20 I was like 17 years old when I played the California Clipper, and I = got the gig because I can sit down and play a big fat groove. And yes, = we used books-which mostly contained arrangements, and original = compositions which the band leader wrote. And, on other occasions, I = have actually sat and played the new one for a period of time (without = "sheet music"). =20
(back) Subject: Bach in the closet From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Mmmmm, And I always thought of the Dutch as moderate, liberal minded people! Arie's comments carry no truck with me, I'm afraid. Why did man invent God? For the pleasure of blaspheming of course. God invented man so that he would have someone worship him. Let's apply a little logic shall we? If God really does exist, then WHY does he exist? Is he a self-serving megalomaniac? Even an intellectual concept of a Christian God must acknowledge that this God exists for the benefit, the comfort and for the fulfillment of people....that is the nature of love. Love is unconditional.....it is given freely to all manner and condition of men. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with church; which isn't quite the same as suggesting that love cannot be FOUND in church, or expressed in worship. Each Sunday, THEY ramble through Mass, and I wonder what it is all about. By the Sanctus, I have usually decided that it has little to do with me, and concentrate on mentally rehearsing the voluntary or writing out some music. As I get older, I have less and less faith in religion. However, Monday to Friday, I look after a couple of kids in the evening before I go to work; one of whom has a mother dying of cancer, and another who would otherwise be alone until 9.00pm. Both are educationally very deprived, so I make them work! After that, I let them play out. This week, one of them wore (to quote a delightfully descriptive American phrase) a "shit eating grin", when I finally managed to teach him how to tell the time...he is 13. Educationally deprived or not, this same boy I placed at a keyboard. Within ten minutes he could play major and minor C scales with BOTH hands AND in contrary motion!!!!!! With his Dutch heritage, Arie surprises me. Isn't this the country which shunned all religious pomposity and placed the tabernacle in the hearts and minds of people? I'm at peace with my little tabernacle, and if the church and the organ fall down tomorrow, I cannot be separated this side of death from that which I believe. God and myself have come to a mutual understanding....he works with me and I work with the kids of an evening. Only when I've done that does he lets me play out on Sundays!!! Peace, Colin Mitchell UK :-)))))) Arie Vandenberg wrote:- > > I often wonder why churches hire musicians, > organists, soloists, who just > are there for the music> > If you are an agnostic, atheist, or non-religious, > maybe should setup some > kind of organization, club or whatever, and do > whatever pleases you, and do > it to the glory of yourselves. > > In churches, surely, everything should be done to > the glory of God, not > merely for a paycheck, or for your own enjoyment. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: professional church musicians From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Another mmmm, The gang-plank or a bullet? That is not choice. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- email@example.com wrote: > I was given a choice: resign, or be fired. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Serious musicians and electronic devices From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:29:37 EDT In a message dated 9/15/2003 3:20:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RonSeverin@aol.com writes: > Now that you mention touring organs, I wonder what happened to > the portable seven rank Wicks that Roger Wagner toured with? > It went in a Lutheran Church (Ascension?) in Thousand Oaks, CA. Blaine Ricketts might know what happened to it after that. Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA
(back) Subject: RE: Random thoughs From: "Andrew Mead" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:14:57 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf Of = David Baker Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:50 PM To: email@example.com Subject: Random thoughs You wrote: Re: tuning problem. As Roy Redman says or implies, no one builds reed stops that are reeds all the way to the top; it probably isn't possible. Call your tuner; with pipes that small, permanent damage can happen in an instant if you're not careful. Bigger pipes take longer to ruin. I respond: "No one builds reed stops that are reeds al the way to the top"? What = about 16' reeds? Most 8'displayed horizontal reeds I've tuned had 61 reeds. I've come across (2) 8 'trumpets on my tuning duties that were normal except = that the reed portion was unexplainably 61 note compass. (I was not miscounting the supers above either). I agree most 8' reeds usually revert to flue = pipes at g#57, but not all. So, it is possible to make reeds at 8' pitch of 61 note compass. I've seen it. Is there a discernable difference between the two at that pitch? Not much, I think. Not trying to be disagreeable, just nit picking (my favourite activity). Andrew Mead
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:35:54 EDT In a message dated 9/16/2003 3:05:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Terrick@webtv.net writes: > /computer industry tell me that mark-up is extremely > high....that electronic organs could be sold much cheaper. > > mark up is about normal for big ticket items of the day. every one makes double thier money except the last person on the = chain--that is the one selling to the church..... dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: : expense of pipe organs From: "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:38:34 +0100 (BST) Yes - mark up on factory prices for electronic organs is about 66%. There are advantages and disadvantages to having a dealer. You get service, back up and good advice from a good dealer, + finance and part exchange - just like cars. The disadvantage is that you pay for it, and you probably can't buy direct from the factory if there is a dealer network in your country. In other words an electronic organ costing the customer, say, $12,000 starts out life from the factory at $4,000. Terry Hicks wrote "Pipe organs may be expensive, but unless things have changed, I believe the profit margine is extremely low in comparison to what most of the the world thinks is profitable." John Foss =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topic of the week : A is for Arrogance ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk
(back) Subject: Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890) From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:02:22 -0500 Hello, TommyLee, et al: Yes, Seb is to be congratulated for saving the Roosevelt. These are fine organs, even in a modern setting. I, too, have one of these beasts, the Roosevelt Opus 376, that was in Grace Church, Colorado Springs, before the Welte was installed. I, too, accept the challenge to help find a new home for these organs. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:16:34 -0500 Terry wrote: > Pipe organs may be expensive, but unless things have changed, > I believe the profit margine is extremely low in comparison > to what most of the the world thinks is profitable. > > For instance, friends of mine who are familiar with the > electronic/computer industry tell me that mark-up is extremely > high....that electronic organs could be sold much cheaper. > > Comments from organ builders? There are a lot of expenses involved in organ building. One of the erroneous assumptions is that the organ should only sell for a price that pays for material, labor, and expense. WRONG! I learned this the hard way. Every builder has at least some level of overhead that must be paid. The shop rent, machine repairs, tool replacements from time to time, material adquisition (right woods at a good price, for instance), utilities, insurance, contingencies, etc., etc., etc..... Lack of the ability to keep the doors open can do a builder in as surely as a serious competitor that gets all of the contracts. Ever since craftsmen began building organs and operating a shop, the unrelenting need to maintain a cash flow is a fundamental that shatters much of the idealism of the business. As for selling electronic organs for a lesser price, the same principles apply. If the dealer is driving a Cadillac and maintains a glamorous showroom, there is a chance that he is enjoying lots of sales at a very fat profit margin, or that he is living on someone else's money. The single item in being profitable in the E-org business is maintaining a stable, low overhead. People can eat up the profits of a dealership very quickly. In my opinion, everyone in an E-org dealership should be a person that contributes to the profitability of the business, and the nature of the successful dealer is sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell............ I have a lot of other practical matters that have to be factored in when selling an E-org, but even these things become sales factors, motivators, etc. More E-orgs are sold closer to acquistion costs than many folks might suspect. It is very satisfying to sell an E-org now and then at what might be considered a reasonable price. It keeps the spirits up and gives us hope for another day. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3977 - 09/16/03 From: "Walter Greenwood" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:18:24 -0400 I am a supporter both of Sebastian's efforts and of fine digital organs. = Perhaps you fail to recognize that we demons on our side of the great divide are = here because we love the sound of the pipe organ, not because we hate it. -WG > "firman1" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > > Hi All... You are probably exactly right .The ones who disparaged this = fine > organ are almost certainly electronic substitute supporters . > Incomprehensible how some small minds function. B.A.F.
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:20:27 EDT In a message dated 9/16/2003 9:17:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: > More E-orgs are sold closer to acquistion costs than many > folks might suspect. why would they sell it then? There is never a reason to not get at least 33% is there? OR is there a company giving em away forcing the prices down-----i am betting on the = latter. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: professional church musicians From: "Randolph Runyon" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:31:24 -0400 on 9/15/03 11:08 PM, Ray Ahrens at email@example.com wrote: > >But, no, they didn't see it that way, even though the chanter and >his fiance were planning to be confirmed and marry in the church. >Instead, they blew them out of the water, fired everybody (including >me), I'm confused. Didn't you give them notice and they waived the customary = 30 day period, or, did you quit because you were too ill? I'm wondering why the story doesn't remain uniform. I think Bud was talking about his Cincinnati experience this time. The story is different because it's a different story. Right, Bud? Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Re: professional church musicians From: <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:53:36 -0700 No, it was the Newport Beach story. It all happened so fast I'm still not sure WHAT the story was (grin), but as I said, I was basically presented with the choices of resigning or being fired. In less than a week's time, I went from interviewing assistant organists and planning the music for the Fall semester to cleaning out my office, after repeated assurances from the Rector and Vestry that I would be provided for, and that an assistant organist would be hired to take some of the work-load. The choir-loft was not handicapped-accessible (in violation of local building codes and state law ... it's a brand-new building), and it was easier to get rid of me than to make it so. My successor is being paid approximately 1/2 the salary I was receiving; the paid chanter (who sang a solo High Mass at 11:00) is gone, so all told, they cut the music budget mid-year by approximately $30K, not counting the paid quartet for Christmas, Holy Week, and Easter, which was another $10K. The place is bursting at the seams; the money is rolling in; the pre-school income pays the entire mortgage on the new building; there's no shortage of MONEY. Basically two people were unhappy with me; they'd been gunning for me for six years; the MINUTE I showed any weakness, they pounced. Christians??? My ASS!!! Cheers, Bud Randolph Runyon wrote: > on 9/15/03 11:08 PM, Ray Ahrens at firstname.lastname@example.org wrote: > > > > >But, no, they didn't see it that way, even though the chanter and > >his fiance were planning to be confirmed and marry in the church. > >Instead, they blew them out of the water, fired everybody = (including > >me), > > I'm confused. Didn't you give them notice and they waived the > customary 30 day period, or, did you quit because you were too ill? > I'm wondering why the story doesn't remain uniform. > > > > I think Bud was talking about his Cincinnati experience this time. > The story is different because it's a different story. Right, Bud? > > > Randy Runyon > Music Director > Zion Lutheran Church > Hamilton, Ohio > email@example.com >
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:48:39 -0500 Hi, Dale: The intricacies of a typical E-org dealership are myriad. Among them, the most pressing issue is cash flow. Unlike the pipe organ business, many E-org dealers finance (floor plan) their inventories. The payments on the floor plan must be maintained as surely as "debt service" on a large church finance program. The most serious part of an organ dealership is to find prospects and sell, sell, sell. If the dealer sells, then the cash flow takes care of itself. The actual contract price for an E-org is also a variable that depends on both the prospect's willingness to part with cash and the dealer's need for income. Selling equals income in most cases. However, when overhead and expenses are factored in, the net profit on an E-org sale can be much less than the gross profit that people might "see" if only acquisition cost and resale price are calculated. Then, there are some dealerships that have to satisfy the factory's demand that they sell a quota of organs each year. If the source-of-supply is ever in question for the dealer, ...go figure; the dealer does what has to be done to meet quota. There are lots of ways to justify the margin on a sale. Each dealer has a certain mindset that guides him as E-orgs are placed with clients. Probably, this is not going to be openly discussed on this forum, for it gets rather personal in most cases and the strictly private nature of a business that should not be disclosed. Reasonably experienced people can assume a lot that will fall over most dealers in a bell- shaped type profile, and the conclusion reached will be rather close to reality. Now, I have to find a church and sell and organ. <grins> Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: RE: Random thoughs From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:57:41 +0800 Andrew is quite correct. The Verschueren organ in the Free Reform Church in Albany West OZ has the 8' trumpet all the way to the top. However the manuals are 56 note and not 61. Bob Elms. I agree most 8' reeds usually revert to >flue pipes at g#57, but not all. So, it is possible to make reeds at 8' pitch >of 61 note compass. I've seen it. Is there a discernable difference >between the two at that pitch? Not much, I think. >Not trying to be disagreeable, just nit picking (my favourite >activity). >Andrew Mead > >
(back) Subject: enough is enough From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:03:34 -0700 Dear Colleagues, Last night on PipeChat, a vicious and unprincipled attack was made upon me as a professional church musician ... a continuation of the rancorous discussion that has been going on here. I have been accused of being unchristian, greedy, unprincipled, mentally unbalanced, and a host of other things, both publicly and privately, because I made my LIVING in church music. Enough is enough. For the record, I am a life-long PRACTICING high-church Episcopalian. I paid DEARLY for my musical education ... I had to stop in the middle and work for five years in order to have the money to continue. I do indeed have high standards regarding organ-building, and regarding liturgy and music. I received those from my teachers, two of whom were pupils of T. Tertius Noble. I knew Dr. Willan in the last years of his life, and I have always taken the program at St. Mary Magdalene in Toronto as the model for my own programs. I have looked to the online organists' community for mutual support and mutual benefit in the past; it would seem that is no longer possible. Therefore, I have no choice but to withdraw from this list until such time as sanity once again prevails. Bud Clark
(back) Subject: Re: enough is enough From: "jch" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:13:09 -0500 This is indeed a sad testimonial to a few subscribers on this list that feel personal attacks are warranted when they do not agree with an opinion = or cannot re-educate someone to their way of thinking. I regret that I signed on to the chat late last night, as I certainly wish I could have been there to support Bud. For those of you who believe the pipe organ has = outlasted its usefulness, let me remind you that the name of this email list is PIPECHAT. The Pipe Organ is and will always be the KING in my = book. Bud, I hope to see you return soon as I know for many of us, you will be sorely missed. regards, Jon
(back) Subject: Re: enough is enough From: <JBuckOrganist@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:24:43 EDT Because of last night's irresponsible session on pipechat, I am also = leaving. The attacks on Bud last night and all day yesterday were disgusting. I = was also attacked last evening on Pipechat. I no longer want to be a part of = that type of unprofessional discussion and mentality. Jan (Zamboni)
(back) Subject: vet fees From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:32:38 -0500 I am sorry this is off topic, I just can't let this go unanswered. I = promise it to be my last post on this. Bob Elms writes "a visit to the vet here in West Oz costs me minumum = $45. A visit to the doctor for me is $35, of which the Government Medical Benefit is about $25. Cost to me of a visit to doctor about $10. Last visit to the vet for my dog cost me $145. He had an Xray on a sore foot." Your physician's fees are obviously heavily subsidized. My Xray = machine costs in excess of $20,000. I charge $40. a film. Out of this = comes the cost of the film, developer chemicals, technician time. How = many of these do you think I will have to take just to break even? Then = along comes PetMed Express and tells folks "how dare your veterinarian = make a profit off of "Fluffy"! Try getting them to come and see your pet = when you find him terribly ill in the middle of the night, and have a = fully equipped ER. Also, what you spend at your veterinarian usually = includes any labwork and pharmacy items. In human medicine these are = usually paid for separately. I went to my doctor earlier this year for = my shoulder. After an Xray and telling me it was arthritis my bill was = $275. I would have charged between $60 and $100 and probably included = an injection or some arthritis medication. Amy Fleming
(back) Subject: fugue? invention? From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:33:05 -0500 OK back on topic. Will someone please explain to me the difference between a fugue and an = invention? My explanations so far have fallen short. Thanks, Amy Fleming
(back) Subject: Re: enough is enough From: "Bob Conway" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:48:00 -0400 Bud and all other PipeChatters, I was present at the IRC session last night, and I was quite astounded at the way Bud suddenly left us. I did not think that he was being "Got at", = but that the discussion was devolving around the need, or even the possibility, for all the benefits that he was suggesting that all Organists/Choirmasters should receive. I have broached this subject myself in the past, and although I can sympathise with Bud's hopes and dreams, it is my view that in the majority = of churches their simply isn't the money available. I have always held = the view that although ideals are all well and good, the bottom line is = whether the church can afford these expenses, - in my view, most of them cannot. I also believe that fancy titles, such as Minister of Music, or Director = of Music, only tend to make the incumbent feel in a stronger position, = (salary and benefits wise), than he/she really is. That is not to say that Bud's recent experiences with his last job are to be condoned, for it seems that = at St. Matthew's church there were other matters that took part in the decision by the Rector and Vestry to aks him to leave. I belong to the school of thought that believes all that is really needed is a good, committed Organist and Choirmaster to serve the needs of most church organisations. I also believe that the Labourer is worthy of his hire, - but not to the elevated heights that some Ministers of Music, or Directors of Music seem to expect due to their rather overly inflated job titles! It is different with a Cathedral appointment, for that is where the incumbent is expected to fulfil all the requirements of the appointment, - = but even there, - well just look at what happened to Martin Neary who was fired from his post at Westminster Abbey for doing what several generations of organist in Cathedral posts have been doing for centuries. I am not ranting, - just trying to see it the way it is, and I hope that Bud will reconsider his decision to withdraw from our ranks, - I am not at = all sure that the comments were directed at him. Bob Conway