PipeChat Digest #3980 - Tuesday, September 16, 2003 Re: expense of pipe organs by "Walter Greenwood" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: enough is enough by "Walter Greenwood" <email@example.com> enough is not enough by "Randolph Runyon" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: expense of pipe organs by "Walter Greenwood" <email@example.com> Random thoughts by "David Baker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Ken Double Plays Rochester Wurlitzer on Sep. 27 (cross-posted) by "Kenneth Evans" <email@example.com> Roger Wagner's Wicks by <RMB10@aol.com> RE: disheartening by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Job titles by "David Baker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Annoyed by "David Baker" <email@example.com> Re: Roger Wagner's Wicks by "Blaine Ricketts" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Random thoughts by <RonSeverin@aol.com> enough is enough by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Re: enough is enough by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re: expense of pipe organs by "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: fugue? invention? by "Noel Stoutenburg" <email@example.com> Enough is Enough by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Re: Bach in the closet by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Reed Pipes In Treble Range by <Devon3000@aol.com> RE: expense of pipe organs by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Hammond organs.....real or Memorex????? by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <email@example.com> Re: expense of pipe organs by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "Walter Greenwood" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:01:08 -0400 Cavaille-Coll lost money on many of his greatest materpieces. The profit margin on electronic organs is much greater than that on pipe organs, but not nearly so large as the profits taken on much of the throwaway electronic gadgetry that surrounds us now. And experience has shown, despite much of what is said here, that the electronic organs built by at least one of the leading makers are long-lived and exceedingly reliable. The company with which I am most familiar keeps hundreds of people well-employed, and funnels huge amounts of money back into research and development. That's how they keep getting closer and closer to the ideal - the sound of real pipes. Also, they still fully support the = products they sold 60 years ago, which is otherwise unheard-of in the electronics industry. All of this requires that they operate at a profit. Cheers, -WG > "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> wrote: > > Pipe organs may be expensive, but unless things have changed, I believe > the profit margine is extremely low in comparison to what most of the > the world thinks is profitable. > > For instance, friends of mine who are familiar with the > electronic/computer industry tell me that mark-up is extremely > high....that electronic organs could be sold much cheaper. > > Comments from organ builders?
(back) Subject: Re: enough is enough From: "Walter Greenwood" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:25:05 -0400 Bud, please reconsider. I don't know what happened last night, and I don't always agree with you, but I am always eager to read what you have to say, and to learn therefrom. I hope I speak for the majority. -WG > <firstname.lastname@example.org> > > Dear Colleagues, > > Last night on PipeChat, a vicious and unprincipled attack was made upon > me as a professional church musician ... a continuation of the rancorous > discussion that has been going on here. > ... > Therefore, I have no choice but to withdraw from this list until such > time as sanity once again prevails. > > Bud Clark
(back) Subject: enough is not enough From: "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:25:49 -0400 Bud, I always look forward to your contributions to the list. Your well = of knowledge is astonishing. It won't be nearly as much fun without you! Please reconsider. Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "Walter Greenwood" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:31:40 -0400 Indeed. Our local digital dealer recently moved his piano and organ showroom from a corner location in a shopping mall to an industrial park just a block away. He told me the rent was $5000 per month MORE in the previous location, which is now a bedding store! You have to sell a hell of a lot of spinets and uprights just to make the rent. -WG > "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote > > The intricacies of a typical E-org dealership are myriad. > Among them, the most pressing issue is cash flow. Unlike > the pipe organ business, many E-org dealers finance (floor > plan) their inventories. The payments on the floor plan > must be maintained as surely as "debt service" on a large > church finance program. ....
(back) Subject: Random thoughts From: "David Baker" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:38:06 -0400 As regards reed stops going all the way to the top, I stand corrected, and apologize for my unlawyerly imprecision in speaking. I should have referred to 8' stops (and, for that matter, 4' stops, e.g. Clarions). Mea culpa! (In all good humor.) As regards Bud's situation, I wasn't on IRC (never have been but might in the future), but I suspect that this topic has long since worn out its welcome. Bud is no doubt feeling picked upon and hurt by the way he was treated by his church, and probably rightfully so. Catharsis can be helpful in healing such hurts, and as fellow "victims", in one or more senses of the word, we can try to help, but there is a point at which such helpfulness makes things worse rather than better. That point seems to have arrived. Give it a rest, folks. David Baker
(back) Subject: Ken Double Plays Rochester Wurlitzer on Sep. 27 (cross-posted) From: "Kenneth Evans" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:42:59 -0400 The Rochester Theater Organ Society (RTOS) is pleased to announce that Indiana's Ken Double will perform at our 4/23 Wurlitzer on Saturday, September 27 at 8 PM. This event will take place at the Auditorium = Theater, 875 East Main Street, Rochester, NY 14605. Admission for this September event is FREE as our way of thanking the many who have supported RTOS = since its founding in 1964. FYI, the Rochester Broadway Theater League has purchased the theater = portion of the Auditorium Center and during this summer have already installed new seats, new carpets and remodeled existing restrooms and added new ones. These improvements are an indication of the RBTL's dedication to = preserving this art deco Rochester landmark. It is exciting to the community and of course to RTOS! Driving directions and much more information is available on the RTOS website at http://theatreorgans.com/rochestr/ . We hope that you will join us for an evening of great musical entertainment. Regards, Ken Evans, RTOS Director
(back) Subject: Roger Wagner's Wicks From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:45:41 EDT >> Now that you mention touring organs, I wonder what happened to >> the portable seven rank Wicks that Roger Wagner toured with? >> > >It went in a Lutheran Church (Ascension?) in Thousand Oaks, CA. Blaine >Ricketts might know what happened to it after that. Ascension Lutheran has an early 90's Reuter now. While I was a student at = UC Santa Barbara, our organ studio went down to hear John Walker dedicate the = instrument. I graduated in 1991, so I would guess that it was 1990 or so. = I was anxious to hear a new Reuter, but my professor, Jim Welch, wanted us = to hear John play, since they had both gone to Stanford together. Incidentally, while I was in high school, I studied at Stanford with their former = professor, Herb Nanney, so we all share a lot of the same musical geneology. As to the Wicks, I don't know what happened to it. Ascension built a new sanctuary and that's why they bought the Reuter. I know I've got the = program with the stoplist at home in a file somewhere. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: RE: disheartening From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:46:04 -0400 Andrew Meagher writes: >That architect way overstepped his/her bounds and took control over = decisions that are not his/her place and that he/she is unqualified to make. = He/she should have come to you,=20 The architect probably did make that decision after consultation with = someone. I was not a member of that congregation or denomination, was = not the only organist, but one of two organists who shared the duties, = and had been there only about a year. So I was not particularly = surprised or offended that I had not been consulted; but I knew that it = was a silly decision and was determined to speak my piece. Fortunately, = it worked.
(back) Subject: Job titles From: "David Baker" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:02:49 -0400 The following quotation from a posting has annoyed me: > I belong to the school of thought that believes all that is really > needed > is a good, committed Organist and Choirmaster to serve the needs of > most > church organisations. I also believe that the Labourer is worthy of > his > hire, - but not to the elevated heights that some Ministers of Music, > or > Directors of Music seem to expect due to their rather overly inflated > job > titles! As far as I'm concerned, my employer can give me any job title he wants, so long as the requirements of the job are clearly defined and the remuneration is adequate - although a little appreciation goes a long way too. When I negotiate with a potential employer, I always ask the employer to consider, first, how much time the employer expects from me, and if I believe that the time is unrealistically low, then we have to work that out. Once we've arrived at an agreed upon time commitment, then we relate that commitment to the standard 40-hour work week. Then we relate that to the cost of living in that city or town, e.g., how much an apartment would cost to rent or what the monthly mortgage cost for a home or condo would be, which by conventional standards is 28% of income, more or less. That gives us the cash portion of the remuneration. Then we discuss benefits. If no benefits are offered and there is no willingness to offer them, then I have to ask myself whether I really want this job; the cost of a very basis benefit such as major medical insurance can run into the thousands of dollars per year. I could go on, but my point is that the business of church is just that, a business, and we fool ourselves if we don't take the business part seriously. I don't take a job title, I take a job of work for which I expect to be properly remunerated. By "properly", I mean that my job is my vocation in precisely the same way that a clergy-person's job is his/her vocation. Just because a person has his collar on backwards doesn't entitle him/her, IMHO, to any greater consideration than me. Also this "committed" thing is a two way street; if the church wants me to be committed to it, it should be committed to me. So there! David Baker
(back) Subject: Annoyed From: "David Baker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:04:41 -0400 And this, too: > It is different with a Cathedral appointment, for that is where the > incumbent is expected to fulfil all the requirements of the > appointment, Is this suggesting that because I don't work in a cathedral that I'm not "expected to fulfil all the requirements of the appointment"? Let's get real, folks. Sorry for the rant. David Baker
(back) Subject: Re: Roger Wagner's Wicks From: "Blaine Ricketts" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:05:11 -0700 The organ was purchased from Ascension Lutheran Church by Dick Wagner, Rodger's Son. It was being installed in Dick's home in the San Fernando Valley in the early 1990's. Blaine Ricketts RMB10@aol.com wrote: > >> Now that you mention touring organs, I wonder what happened to > >> the portable seven rank Wicks that Roger Wagner toured with? > >> > > > >It went in a Lutheran Church (Ascension?) in Thousand Oaks, CA. > Blaine > >Ricketts might know what happened to it after that. > > Ascension Lutheran has an early 90's Reuter now. While I was a > student at UC Santa Barbara, our organ studio went down to hear John > Walker dedicate the instrument. I graduated in 1991, so I would guess > that it was 1990 or so. I was anxious to hear a new Reuter, but my > professor, Jim Welch, wanted us to hear John play, since they had both > gone to Stanford together. Incidentally, while I was in high school, > I studied at Stanford with their former professor, Herb Nanney, so we > all share a lot of the same musical geneology. As to the Wicks, I > don't know what happened to it. Ascension built a new sanctuary and > that's why they bought the Reuter. I know I've got the program with > the stoplist at home in a file somewhere. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: Random thoughts From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:16:01 EDT Hi Chatters: In resopnse to Andrew, reeds lose power toward the top. It's just the nature of the beast. In many cases smaller scaling the flues begin at note 50 on an 8' reed stop but if carried to the extreme note 56. Fisk has experimented with filling in a cornette of sorts using a quint, tierce combination for power in that range. 4' reeds go to flues much sooner perhaps at note 44. The transition is almost un noticed. 16' reeds do go all the way to the top unless it is a 73 note rank for octave coupling purposes, then the flues may start at note 68 or sooner. The power of the reeds is found at the middle and lower end of the compass not in the last high octave or so. I also don't appreciate the denigrating remarks about one of our most sucessful organ builders. it's not cool, suave, or smart to say the least. You usually find these kinds of remarks replicating themselves among people very little in knowledge, and stamp them- selves as such. I don't think these remarks are appropriate either. Ron Severin
(back) Subject: enough is enough From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:54:01 EDT Guys, I apologize for my ignorance, but I've been reading thru the recent = digests of pipechat and I can't find the personal attacks to which Bud = refers. I have read postings that speak of how different churches' priorities = affect their choice of instrument, but I must have missed the personal attacks. = In fact, I had tho't that this discussion had actually been going on in a = rather civil manner. Keith
(back) Subject: Re: enough is enough From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:21:49 -0400 On 9/16/03 12:54 PM, "Kzimmer0817@aol.com" <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> wrote: > I can't find the personal attacks to which Bud refers. As I recall, the worst of them were off-list, but were copied (in at least some cases) to others, and even to the civil authorities. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "jch" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:08:03 -0500 At 11:31 AM 9/16/03 -0400, you wrote: >Our local digital dealer recently moved his piano and organ showroom >from a corner location in a shopping mall Gee, I had never considered making a serious organ purchase decision in a shopping mall. Jon
(back) Subject: Re: fugue? invention? From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:13:58 -0500 "Dr. Amy Fleming" wrote: > Will someone please explain to me the difference between a fugue and > an invention? My explanations so far have fallen short. They're both contrapuntal compositions, according to my music dictionary (which I will not name, as it's so old as to indubitably be considered outdated. With respect to invention, the dictionary uses the descriptive "short". The definition of "fugue" is considerably longer, and never uses the word "short", but this may be because there is a diminuative of fugue (fugetta). I read once that 1) Bach's inventions were intended as teaching tools for his students, in preparation for undertaking study of his fugues, and 2) that at one time the word "invention" implied that at one time the invention was improvisatory, while the fugue was generally pre-composed. ns > Thanks,Amy Fleming
(back) Subject: Enough is Enough From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:13:39 -0500 (CDT) Not being able to use IRC, I don't know what was said. However, the comments made on this list about Director of Music and other "fancy titles" struck me as uncharitable even if not intended to be. Different churches or denominations use different titles, and often they do reflect a wide variety of responsibilities. I am Director of Music at a Roman Catholic parish, and I do way more than just play the organ/piano and direct any choirs. Like Bud's previous job, I do music arrangements/composing, go to many parish meetings, meet with wedding couples, write articles in the bulletin, work with instrumentalists weekly, plus produce the weekly "worship aid". Three observations: - We all have to be extremely careful about what we write here...READ & REREAD your comments before you post. Printed words leave too much room for interpretation. - If the clergy at a church are being payed a decent salary & benefits, the buildings are in good shape, the people are driving late-model cars, and the musician is being paid less than the janitor, SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT. I don't care if there is one service a week or 5, we deserve to be justly compensated. - People in this list obviously have a wide variety of background and education. Sometimes this can appear as snobbery or pontificating...I know because I've been accused of it by people I know! My first reaction was to be defensive, but after a few kicks in the head, I've learned to say, "I'm sorry - let me rephrase that." Musicians can be a catty lot....ever hang around a bunch of voice majors? (teehee) For the good of the instrument we love so much, I hope we can have our "fights" and still go out for drinks afterwards :) Terry Hicks
(back) Subject: Re: Bach in the closet From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:33:03 -0400 At 02:52 AM 2003-09-16 -0700, you wrote: >Mmmmm, > >And I always thought of the Dutch as moderate, liberal >minded people! > >Arie's comments carry no truck with me, I'm afraid. > >Why did man invent God? For the pleasure of >blaspheming of course. > >God invented man so that he would have someone worship >him. > >Let's apply a little logic shall we? > >If God really does exist, then WHY does he exist? > >Is he a self-serving megalomaniac? > >Even an intellectual concept of a Christian God must >acknowledge that this God exists for the benefit, the >comfort and for the fulfillment of people....that is >the nature of love. > >Love is unconditional.....it is given freely to all >manner and condition of men. > >It has absolutely NOTHING to do with church; which >isn't quite the same as suggesting that love cannot be >FOUND in church, or expressed in worship. > >Each Sunday, THEY ramble through Mass, and I wonder >what it is all about. By the Sanctus, I have usually >decided that it has little to do with me, and >concentrate on mentally rehearsing the voluntary or >writing out some music. > >As I get older, I have less and less faith in >religion. > >However, Monday to Friday, I look after a couple of >kids in the evening before I go to work; one of whom >has a mother dying of cancer, and another who would >otherwise be alone until 9.00pm. Both are >educationally very deprived, so I make them work! >After that, I let them play out. > >This week, one of them wore (to quote a delightfully >descriptive American phrase) a "shit eating grin", >when I finally managed to teach him how to tell the >time...he is 13. > >Educationally deprived or not, this same boy I placed >at a keyboard. Within ten minutes he could play major >and minor C scales with BOTH hands AND in contrary >motion!!!!!! > >With his Dutch heritage, Arie surprises me. Isn't this >the country which shunned all religious pomposity and >placed the tabernacle in the hearts and minds of >people? > >I'm at peace with my little tabernacle, and if the >church and the organ fall down tomorrow, I cannot be >separated this side of death from that which I >believe. > >God and myself have come to a mutual >understanding....he works with me and I work with the >kids of an evening. Only when I've done that does he >lets me play out on Sundays!!! > >Peace, > >Colin Mitchell UK :-)))))) Colin, Logic tells me that either you or your church employer is inconsistent. In your mind you are playing for "Colin's house of music", for self gratification and maybe a paycheck. I always thought churches were "Houses of God", where all things including = the music was to be done "to the glory of God". I don't suppose a "church music specialist", is very employable outside a church setting, so that is why you have one foot in the church, and one foot out of it. Maybe also, it hasn't dawned on you, that if the people you play to have exactly the same attitude as you, eventually you would be playing to nobody, as essentially, a church by it's very definition is a group of believers (who believe at least something), not a group of people who = just meet once a week to hear the latest from the music master. From what I have heard about the church situation in England, most parish churches are = pretty much on life support, probably within 10 years a lot of them will = be closed. Unbelievers do not keep the church going, or forever keep paying organists to do their thing. Just my thoughts..................... Arie V. P.S. It may surprise you, that the Dutch can indeed be very liberal, they = can also be very conservative, and most anything in between. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263
(back) Subject: Reed Pipes In Treble Range From: <Devon3000@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:37:43 EDT The pipes of the "Trompette en chemade" in the Austin/Allen organ at = Christ Church of Oak Brook, Illinois have reed pipes going right to the top of = the 61 notes. They really are cute little reed pipes, but the top octave is = doubled by flue pipes, so the power is consistent from bottom to top. All other = reed pipes in the 4-manual, 80 rank organ, break into flues in the top octaves. Three compact disks are available of this organ. Contact me privately if interested. Devon Hollingsworth, in DeKalb, Illinois, and miraculously still organist = at Christ Church.
(back) Subject: RE: expense of pipe organs From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:46:01 -0400 Andres Gunther firstname.lastname@example.org Pipe organs may be expensive but they are *artworks* and are *forever* if properly cared. For this their cost is less an expense than an = *investment*. Yes, overhead costs can be criminal, and I don't know a single organ = builder who is really wealthy (in comparison to other business or manufacture people), and there are no organ building businesses at the stock market = for that as far as I am informed. But (pipe-) organ builders think in other terms. They are artists; their profession belongs to the artistry craftsmanship. Their reward is not only the money but the personal satisfaction to have given a new artwork to the world. For that I cannot understand people who simply discard a pipe organ just because it doesn't belong to their sound conception. It's like = throwing the Mona Lisa to the dumpyard only because she doesn't match with our contemporary beauty ideal anymore... I refuse plainly to go into a pipe vs digital debate. Only enough to say that in the San Francisco church in Caracas four electronic organs stand around in the sacristy. Dead. Discontinued; no spare parts. The Cavaille-Coll works, and works, and works... with some flaws because it's thorougly worn out and needs badly a first line restoration; but it works. And spare parts are available even after 110 years. Did I hear several yawns?- I know that I have posted this dozens of times, but I cannot insist enough on this point. Yours Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about. ----- Original Message ----- From: terry hicks <Terrick@webtv.net> To: <email@example.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:04 AM Subject: expense of pipe organs > Pipe organs may be expensive, but unless things have changed, I believe > the profit margine is extremely low in comparison to what most of the > the world thinks is profitable. > > For instance, friends of mine who are familiar with the > electronic/computer industry tell me that mark-up is extremely > high....that electronic organs could be sold much cheaper. > > Comments from organ builders?
(back) Subject: RE: Hammond organs.....real or Memorex????? From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:24:06 -0400 Andres Gunther email@example.com These Hammond wheelies are quite indestructible. Their typical sound was considered as the closest possible to "pipe" in its time and is imitated = on modern digital keyboards as "Jazz organ". In conclusion, they became a classic... Their worst enemies (where I live) are termites and "midnight-suppliers" who take out the motors and vacuum tubes. Long ago I visited the Hammond website and saw they have a whole "vintage" section. Andres (who learned to play organ at a B3) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gfc234@aol.com To: firstname.lastname@example.org Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 4:25 PM Subject: Re: Hammond organs.....real or Memorex????? In a message dated 9/15/2003 3:10:06 PM Central Daylight Time, ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com writes: That means dead organs are now supplying parts to keep others going. I suppose you could say that Hammond should keep on supplying parts, but I = am told that the cost of doing that is prohibitive. What you hear about Hammonds biting the dust simply isin't true. You put = a few drops of oil in them once a year, and call a service tech to address major problems-they are virtually problem free. As far as parts no longer being availabe, that is not true either. If anyone needs the name of a master b3 tech, let me know privately. Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile email@example.com
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:46:40 EDT In a message dated 9/16/2003 2:06:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Gee, I had never considered making a serious organ purchase decision in = a > shopping mall. > > Saucer of milk time.<G> Obviously the dealer sold more than church organs....at least i am guessing? dale in Florida