PipeChat Digest #3983 - Wednesday, September 17, 2003
 
RE: Roger Wagner's Wicks
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
St. Agnes Cathedral
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
RE: Reed ranks
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
Re: What is non-equal temperament?
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
RE: expense of pipe organs
  by "Lefevre Vincent" <vincent.lefevre@tiscali.be>
Re: to David Scribner/administrator
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Bud's Departure
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
C-C CD's question (X-posted)
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net>
Re: Reed ranks
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
Mixture Reeds?
  by "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com>
Re: Bach in the closet; Tillman at Emanu-El
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: enough is enough
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Mathias Carillon
  by <swiberg@cox.net>
Re: Mixture Reeds?
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: to David Scribner/administrator
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Mixture Reeds?
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was "enough is enough")
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: disheartening
  by "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
Re: What is non-equal temperament?
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was "enough is enough")
  by "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Roger Wagner's Wicks From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:15:55 EDT   >Monty, > >I saw one of your recital programs listed in this months TAO. > >Andrew   The funny thing about that concert listing is that they only listed half = the program and even then it's still screwed up.....D'Aquin did not compose = "The Squirrel" as listed, it was written by Powell Weaver. I did a set of = pieces based on animals--The Cuckoo, The Squirrel, and Robert Elmore's "Donkey = Dance."   Monty Bennett    
(back) Subject: St. Agnes Cathedral From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:19:23 EDT   Andrew said something in a post about the Wicks organ at St. Agnes = Cathedral having a lot of digital in it. I thought it was primarily a pipe organ augmented with just a few digital stops in the Chancel divisions as space = savers. Has anyone on the list played it or heard it? Just curious.....   Monty Bennett    
(back) Subject: RE: Reed ranks From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:08:55 -0400     You wrote: I own a (said to be) Wangerin Tuba rank that has doubled flue pipes for = the top octave--i.e., each note has two speaking pipes, presumably not only = for greater volume, but for richer harmonics.   I have no idea if this was common with Wangerin or any builder.   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats I replied: I've seen the same on a 1960's Walcker. G#57 -c61 of the 8' Trompette was composed of two flue pipes per note. One was @8' pitch and the other @ 5-1/3'. I think it's a good idea. After double checking your post I have = to ask: Were the two flue pipes on your Tuba at fundamental pitch? AjM          
(back) Subject: Re: What is non-equal temperament? From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:31:00 -0500   I'm sure someone can send you to (or you could find via Google) a = website that explains this, but you should play the instrument and = listen to the differences as a you go to keys that have more sharps and = flats in them. Also, play intervals of the 5th and major and minor 3rds = on the Hauptwerk Principal 8' and listen to the beats. The fewer beats = there are, the more "in tune" the interval is--something our "modern" = ears have to adjust to. We are used to very sharp 3rds, e.g.   In the late 1970s I was responsible for contracting Wilhelm to build an = organ for my church, Lutheran Church of the Ascension, Northfield, IL. = It was the first Wilhelm in a church in the Chicago area. At that time = he was using a modification of Werckmeister II for his "non-equal = temperament." I'm pretty sure he kept refining his scheme as time went = on, so St. Athanasius is probably different from that.   I wasn't too fond of the Werckmeister tuning at first but lived with it = and adjusted my ears and repertory. During that time I learned Otto = Olsson's Prelude and Fugue in D# Minor, which would have been about as = ornery as one could get. I didn't play it for a recital or service at = that church, but I did practice it there. I remember doing something in = Db once, and that was about as far out as I cared to go.   Bob Lind (who is playing a postlude this Sunday in Gb by Rudolf Bibl) =   ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fran Walker=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 9:26 PM Subject: What is non-equal temperament?     OK, I've been advised that the organ (Wilhelm Tracker) at St. = Athanasius church in Evanston, IL is *not mean tone temperament but is = "a non-equal temperament" - what does this mean?    
(back) Subject: RE: expense of pipe organs From: "Lefevre Vincent" <vincent.lefevre@tiscali.be> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:38:54 +0200   Maybe the web master can find a solution?   Vincent   =20   _____ =20   From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of RonSeverin@aol.com Sent: woensdag 17 september 2003 7:43 To: pipechat@pipechat.org   =20   Dear Chatters:   =20   I've been reading stuff from a guy on this list that just doesn't ring = true.   His knowledge of both the pipe organ and the digital market is   next to nil. He keeps bashing one particular organ builder with   totally outlandish statements about which he knows next to=20   nothing. I for one don't wish to enter into a food fight with him,   which he's been itching to start all day. I for one don't wish to   read malicious material and so from now on I will press press   the delete button. I did want to express in some way how I feel   about this. It's unnecessary, unethical and just plain wrong.   =20   Ron Severin      
(back) Subject: Re: to David Scribner/administrator From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:50:11 -0500   At 1:03 AM -0400 9/17/03, ameagher@stny.rr.com wrote: >I was not on IRC last night and never have done the IRC thing but am >enraged about how people treated Bud in IRC and on the e-mail list and = made >him leave. David, I am not going to tell you what to do about this, but = I >think you have to do something because we are losing our best chatters = and >that is not in your best interest or the rest of the chatters best >interest. You have always been prompt in responding to everything else = so >I know it's only a matter of time before you take action, but I just = wanted >to express my opinion that something has to be done. I have enjoyed >belonging to your chat so far and hope that things will be straightened = out >soon.   Andrew and everyone else   Don't think I haven't been struggling with this whole business since Monday night's IRC session and after reading the various postings yesterday and trying to figure out what to say.   This discussion, for the most part, has been respectful, but some things were said on IRC the other evening that set-off some of the feelings/discussion yesterday. People on this list range from people who have degrees in Church Music/ Organ and are or have been full time church musicians to people that might have degrees in music or maybe no degree and basically volunteer in their churches to provide music. We also vary from people living in large cities where there are churches with full-time musical staffs to people that serve in rural churches that struggle to keep the doors open. Each "side" has a valid viewpoint based on where they are but unfortunately some people, especially those who are the volunteers, cannot see the other's viewpoint.   So far I have been sitting here writing and erasing and rewriting for over an hour. This whole issue has so many viewpoints that I find there is no clear cut answer so any of this. We all come from different places and different traditions and trying to keep my personal feelings out of the equation is very difficult. So with this I just am going to end and ask that each of your, no matter where you are coming from, RESPECT each other's viewpoint. What I saw the other evening on IRC, that people were disparaging each other's views.   I probably could write much more, actually I have so far this morning and erased it, but if I do it will be from my personal address as just a list member and not as Administrator. All I ask is that everyone RESPECT each other and LOVE each other as our God, no matter what we believe, commands us to do.   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Bud's Departure From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:01:51 -0500   Hi, Andrew: You wrote: > I was not on IRC last night and never have done the > IRC thing but am enraged about how people treated Bud > in IRC and on the e-mail list and made him leave.... Whoa! Aren't we comparing apples and oranges? Who MADE Bud leave? When we participate in discussions with free-thinkers, aren't we inviting our own thoughts to be challenged? In such an environment, no one MAKES us do anything. From my own experience on these discussion lists, I can assure you that it is possible to state something that sounds outrageous to others, ....and then we receive the close scrutiny of that absurdity. That is what all intelligent discussion is about. Be reasonable. If we cannot be reasonable, then, perhaps, Bud did the best thing for him. The pain of rejection is intense. It can seathe inside a person for months, ...maybe, years. Let's be sympathetic to his hurt, but let's also understand that open discussion is "open" discussion. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..  
(back) Subject: C-C CD's question (X-posted) From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:38:02 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   Dear List,   I want to purchase the 6 Cavaille-Coll Cd's from the OHS catalog, but = first I must know:   If they are interactive CD-ROMs, *what are the minimum system = requirements*?   Please reply privatedly. BTW many thanks to all who wrote me offering = help. God bless the Internet and the organ lists :)   Yours Andres.        
(back) Subject: Re: Reed ranks From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:26:23 -0400   I've acctually heard of it being done and we do it ourselves on any large reed rank, but I know of no examples locally on any old organs. Even Casavant never did this on any older organ I've seen - which is a shame as it does give quite a bit more punch to the top of a large reed rank.   Nelson     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 01-Sep-03    
(back) Subject: Mixture Reeds? From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:46:57 -0500   Has anyone ever heard of a set of mixtures made from reeds?   Mike Franch in Madison, WI   _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=3Dfeatures/es    
(back) Subject: Re: Bach in the closet; Tillman at Emanu-El From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:51:59 -0400   On 9/16/03 5:32 PM, "TubaMagna@aol.com" <TubaMagna@aol.com> wrote:   > His devotion to Jewish liturgical music has been lifelong. > And yes, Mr. Tillman is a Presbyterian.   You knew I'd ask, didn't you, Seb?   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: enough is enough From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:08:29 -0400   On 9/16/03 9:14 PM, "MFoxy9795@aol.com" <MFoxy9795@aol.com> wrote:   > The great majority of churches seem to be well able to support their = clergy at > a high standard, house them, and keep the physical plant and many other > programs going and pay salaries for a multitude of assistants, = secretaries, > and so on. The difference between keeping the musician in penury or = keeping > them at a reasonable standard is probably a negligible amount in the = context > of the whole church budget.   Merry: That's not my observation. We pay our pastor well (VERY well, for = a parish of only 150 people), house him and family not sumptuously, but = quite decently, cover his (and family's) medical plan and pension plan, pay his kids' tuition at the best private schools in Manhattan. He's really worth it, too. We pay "adequately" for secretarial and building maintenance folks.   But our cantor is also really superb. He gets good salary, all the perks (medical, pension, etc.). He and pastor are both so good that it scares = us to contemplate how many other stronger parishes must be licking their = chops at the possibility of stealing one or the other from us.   We've GOT to find a source for major funds to maintain and repair our stained glass. But we'll never skimp on EITHER pastor or cantor.   (MOST parishes I know of struggle mightily to make the budget, and, yes, clergy, support folks, and musicians are not overpaid--but the buildings aren't overdone either.)   Alan www.stlukesnyc.org Take a look.    
(back) Subject: Mathias Carillon From: <swiberg@cox.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:11:10 -0400   Do any of you play "Carillon" by William Mathias? I'm planning on = including this in an upcoming recital and would be interested in any = suggestions regarding appropriate or effective registrations for this = piece.   Thanks,   Steve Wiberg Phoenix, AZ swiberg@cox.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Mixture Reeds? From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:35:53 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:46 AM Subject: Mixture Reeds?     > Has anyone ever heard of a set of mixtures made from reeds? > > Mike Franch > in Madison, WI > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=3Dfeatures/es > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >    
(back) Subject: Re: to David Scribner/administrator From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:39:33 -0400   David, well said!! Three cheers!   Jeff   On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:50:11 -0500 Administrator <admin@pipechat.org> wrote: >At 1:03 AM -0400 9/17/03, ameagher@stny.rr.com wrote: >>I was not on IRC last night and never have done the IRC >>thing but am >>enraged about how people treated Bud in IRC and on the >>e-mail list and made >>him leave. David, I am not going to tell you what to do >>about this, but I >>think you have to do something because we are losing our >>best chatters and >>that is not in your best interest or the rest of the >>chatters best >>interest. You have always been prompt in responding to >>everything else so >>I know it's only a matter of time before you take action, >>but I just wanted >>to express my opinion that something has to be done. I >>have enjoyed >>belonging to your chat so far and hope that things will >>be straightened out >>soon. > >Andrew and everyone else > >Don't think I haven't been struggling with this whole >business since Monday night's IRC session and after >reading the various postings yesterday and trying to >figure out what to say. > >This discussion, for the most part, has been respectful, >but some things were said on IRC the other evening that >set-off some of the feelings/discussion yesterday. > People on this list range from people who have degrees >in Church Music/ Organ and are or have been full time >church musicians to people that might have degrees in >music or maybe no degree and basically volunteer in their >churches to provide music. We also vary from people >living in large cities where there are churches with >full-time musical staffs to people that serve in rural >churches that struggle to keep the doors open. Each >"side" has a valid viewpoint based on where they are but >unfortunately some people, especially those who are the >volunteers, cannot see the other's viewpoint. > >So far I have been sitting here writing and erasing and >rewriting for over an hour. This whole issue has so many >viewpoints that I find there is no clear cut answer so >any of this. We all come from different places and >different traditions and trying to keep my personal >feelings out of the equation is very difficult. So with >this I just am going to end and ask that each of your, no >matter where you are coming from, RESPECT each other's >viewpoint. What I saw the other evening on IRC, that >people were disparaging each other's views. > >I probably could write much more, actually I have so far >this morning and erased it, but if I do it will be from >my personal address as just a list member and not as >Administrator. All I ask is that everyone RESPECT each >other and LOVE each other as our God, no matter what we >believe, commands us to do. > >David >-- >**************************************** >David Scribner >Owner / Co-Administrator >PipeChat > >http://www.pipechat.org >mailto:admin@pipechat.org >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & >related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >   <TEXTAREA NAME=3D"Signature" ROWS=3D"4" COLS=3D"60">  
(back) Subject: Re: Mixture Reeds? From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:43:02 -0400   Dear Mike and List,   This represents the second time in the last two days that I fired a blank letter off, pushing send before applying content! It's too much coffee.   Anyway, I am skating on very thin ice here, knowing little about this = topic, other than that I did hear such a thing at House of Hope Church in Minneapolis a few years ago (Fisk), courtesy of Michael Barone. The stop = is called, if I recall correctly, an ORLOS, and it is not alone in the Organ world, but it is apparently a rare breed, makes a mighty Klang, perhaps Iberian in inspiration. Someone will know more.   When I first heard about this, I was rather wondering if someone was = pulling a fast one. It is real!   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:46 AM Subject: Mixture Reeds?     > Has anyone ever heard of a set of mixtures made from reeds? > > Mike Franch > in Madison, WI > > _________________________________________________________________      
(back) Subject: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was "enough is enough") From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:45:50 -0400   My two cents...ok, two and a half:   BUT, let's take into consideration that the clergy also gets calls in the middle of the night, deals with counseling (mental and grief), has to prepare for worship, write sermons, deal with angry and upset parishoners, ensure that things get done, manage the committees and boards needs as they hand him/her stuff, maintain the spiritual welfare of their flocks, supervise "employees" (note the quotes), etc. I, as a musician, do not feel near the amount of stress and pressure the clergy feels. Plus, these folks have at least Masters degrees, and in a lot of cases, doctoral degrees. In my humble but outspoken opinion, they really earn their wages. I would NOT want to trade places, not even for the chance to be in church work full time.   Regards, jeff   >> The great majority of churches seem to be well able to >>support their clergy at >> a high standard, house them, and keep the physical plant >>and many other >> programs going and pay salaries for a multitude of >>assistants, secretaries, >> and so on. <TEXTAREA NAME=3D"Signature" ROWS=3D"4" COLS=3D"60">  
(back) Subject: Re: disheartening From: "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:12:46 -0400     > Andrew Meagher writes: > > >That architect way overstepped his/her bounds and took control over > decisions > that are not his/her place and that he/she is unqualified to make. A TRUE STORY:   In the early discussion for the new organ at my church (Presbyterian), there was a lengthy discussion with a noted "church" architect about the possibility of turning the Sanctuary 180 degrees. At this huge meeting ( session, the Organ Task Force, the Music and Worship committee, the building committee et al.), the architect made the statement that the organ HAD to be located at the West End for LITURGICAL reasons.   Our Pastor at the time, the Rev. Dr. Thomas pointed out that there was NO liturgical necessity for placement of an organ and in fact, in his experience of visiting literally thousands of Presbyterian Churches he felt that about half of the churches had a Chancel installation and the other half a Gallery.   The architect then went on with his presentation and not 5 minutes later said, "Of course, the organ MUST be in the back to be liturgically correct".   When it actually came time to reconstruct the Sanctuary, a new architect was selected and lo, and behold, our new organ sit proudly at the EAST end !     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY   ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!  
(back) Subject: Re: What is non-equal temperament? From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:12:14 EDT   Hi Fran:   The Java Tuner http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/accord.htm will give you a very good idea of what alternate tunings sound like. First you select a tuning scheme, then listen to a portion of a four part example. You can also change the pitch to A=3D415, 440, 465 Listen to each note on the circle of fifths.   What Bob Lind says is true, in equal temperment the thirds and sixths are sharp to the fifth and unison. You will see why the organ builders were very reluctant to use it especially for mixtures, mutations and reeds during Bach's life and beyond. Equal Temperment was known at that time, but beauty of tone won out, with comma meantone and well temper. Comma Meantone is not a closed system, while Well Temper is. Equal is another version of a closed system. In a twelve note to the octave system there is an interval called the WOLF. This makes it impossible to divide things up equally, so tuners try to hide the loose ends which are present. The different tuning schemes attempt to do that, but there is no free lunch. The discrepancy still exists.   People who complain about screeming mixtures in equal mistakenly blame the pipes rather than the temperment they are tuned to. Mixtures were designed during the time before equal temperment took hold. They bring clarity and definition and brilliance but in equal they fight with the thirds and sixths of the equal tempered scale in combination with the unisons and fifths of the same scale. Well Temper calms things down considerably in its various forms, but the wolf is still there lurking and is dealt with very carefully. It's one of the reasons tiece mixtures were dropped in favor of quint mixtures. Quint mixtures still caused some trouble and were dropped entirely by some builders at the turn of the last century when Equal Temperment became predominent.   When fully understood, the subject of temperments is facinating.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was "enough is enough") From: "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:12:58 -0400     On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:45:50 -0400 "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> writes: > My two cents...ok, two and a half: > > BUT, let's take into consideration that the clergy also > gets calls in the middle of the night, deals with > counseling (mental and grief), has to prepare for worship, > write sermons, deal with angry and upset parishoners, > ensure that things get done, manage the committees and > boards needs as they hand him/her stuff, maintain the > spiritual welfare of their flocks, supervise "employees" > (note the quotes), etc. I, as a musician, do not feel > near the amount of stress and pressure the clergy feels. > Plus, these folks have at least Masters degrees, and in a > lot of cases, doctoral degrees. In my humble but > outspoken opinion, they really earn their wages. I would > NOT want to trade places, not even for the chance to be in > church work full time. > > Regards, > jeff > Dear Jeff,   I believe that you have missed the point....It's not that Clergy are paid too much...it's that musicians are paid too little !   Take my church as an example:   Installed Pastor: Hours: As Required 4 weeks vacation 4 weeks "study leave" Compensation package $ 75,000/yr (Of which only about $30k is taxable as "income")   Church Secretary: Hours: 40 Medical Insurance Pension provision Compensation: about $28,000/yr   Director of Christian Education: Hours: 40 Medical and Pension Compensation: a little over $ 30,000/yr   MUSIC DEPT: Adult Choir Director/ Director of Music Hours: 15/wk No benefits   Organist: Hours: 10/wk No benefits   Youth Choir director: 10 hours/wk No Benefits   Bell Choir director: 7-1/2 hours/wk No Benefits   TOTAL For Music Dept. 42-1/2 hours per week TOTAL compensation package for Music Dept. - LESS than $20,000/yr !!!!!!!!!   I believe that THIS is what was really being discussed !     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY   ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!