PipeChat Digest #3985 - Wednesday, September 17, 2003
 
RE: Liturgical west end
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
top flues in reed rank
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: Mathias Carillon
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: Catherine Crozier
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: St. Agnes Cathedral
  by "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net>
Re: Mixture Reeds?
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: St. Agnes Cathedral
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: to David Scribner/administrator
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: church of the Redeemer
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: professional church musicians
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: top flues in reed rank
  by "C. Joseph Nichols" <cjn@nicholsandsimpson.com>
Bad manners?
  by "Dennis Dieken" <dj5311@earthlink.net>
Re: church of the Redeemer
  by "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Opinions welcomed... (Long posting)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
reaching Bud Clark?
  by "Ray Kimber" <ray@kimber.com>
Re: St. Agnes Cathedral
  by "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net>
RE: church of the Redeemer
  by "Mari" <mreive@tampabay.rr.com>
Re: Liturgical west end
  by "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
United Church of Rogers Park
  by "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com>
Liturgical west end
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Re: Liturgical west end
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was "enough is enough")
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Liturgical west end
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: professional church musicians
  by "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Liturgical west end From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:52:16 -0400   Ron Severin writes:   > Both traditions kept the Sacred Mysteries puposely hidden from the = view of the Laity. Thus the divided Choir of English Cathedrals and = churches. The Choir consisted of consecrated monks and accolytes(one of the priestly minor orders).=20   Two other considerations: (1) The meat and potatos of the Divine Office = being the psalter, the practice was well-established of singing the = verses antiphonally, as it is said the angels in heaven sing. This = ideal is reflected in the seating. (2) For a relatively small and = definite community, it is very practical. "Collegiate seating" is not = divided in two opposing ranks as much as it is wrap-around. There are = often "returned seats", facing east, against the partition at the west = end of the choir. Isn't it, then, really a similar ideal to the = 19th-century "Akron style" or even later ideals for the congregation, = except that in this earlier case the congregation consisted essentially = of the members of the order? =20   There usually isn't a wide separation between the two sides. Being = close together, they can hear one another very well, better than if they = all faced the same way. We must even bear the weather in mind, and the = fact that medieval churches were not heated. A recent book describing = liturgical and musical practices in late medieval Notre-Dame, Paris = explains that in Leonin's time the area of the choir was nearly = surrounded with tapestries, first and foremost to reduce drafts of = chilly air. We like to think of this music as inspired by the vast = acoustic, and ringing around therein, but perhaps this wasn't really the = essential concept or environment in which it was sung.   In some cases even French cathedrals, and certainly English cathedrals, = were never built to accommodate vast congregations. They might be built = for crowds of pilgrims in some cases, but not for congregational = liturgies as we know them. Of course, they were built to be impressive. = (One art historian claims that the triforia were deliberately included = to inspire fear-- the pervasive sense that someone could be watching you = from way up there-- in anyone entering the building.) On a practical = level, they were built only to provide numerous altars so that every = priest resident could celebrate mass every morning. Some of these = altars were "chantry chapels," established and endowed by the estate of = some wealthy person who desired a priest to say a daily requiem on = behalf of his or her soul in perpetuity. Winchester Cathedral stilll = has several particularly beautiful examples of these little chapels, = each occupying space between two piers and surrounded with elaborate, = delicate stone tracery. =20   The idea of building a vast church as an "auditorium," in which throngs = of people could share in a liturgy by actually seeing and hearing it, = was a concern of Sir Christopher Wren, and was at the time regarded as = very innovative.   > It was a custom to tie a cord around the waist of the priest in case = he was over come or died in there. It became tradition to do this, as it was believed that anyone else entering would die if they were unauthorized to be there. =20 Interesting? =20 Yes indeed. Thanks for all your details, some of which I already knew, = many not.   Paul    
(back) Subject: top flues in reed rank From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:54:49 -0500   Re: the Wangerin tuba with double flues in the top octave--I have the = rank in storage at present, and I don't recall for certain, but I *think* the pipes were doubled fundamentals, not fundamental and quint.   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats      
(back) Subject: Re: Mathias Carillon From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:42:56 EDT   In a message dated 9/17/2003 11:12:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, swiberg@cox.net writes:     > Do any of you play "Carillon" by William Mathias? I'm planning on > including this in an upcoming recital and would be interested in any = suggestions > regarding appropriate or effective registrations for this piece. > > Thanks, > > Steve Wiberg >   I play it. Wm. Mathias was a bit obscure on registration suggestions, = which is kind of common as he wasn't really an organist, but included organ compositions in a fairly vast library of music he wrote to be published by = OUP.   FWIW, I was present at the world premiere of this piece, played by Todd Wilson at the PAM conference in MOntreat NC, and have a signed,autographed = copy of "Carillon" by Mr Mathias. the best suggestions I can give you is to do = what sounds right to you... (how's that for generic suggestions?)   Rick M in VA    
(back) Subject: Re: Catherine Crozier From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:51:35 EDT   This I heard through the grapevine this morning, that Catherine Crozier Gleason has suffered a massive stroke at the age of eighty-nine. I think some prayers would be helpful to her. She may not live through this episode. Let's keep her close. She is a wonderful teacher, and performer.   I regretfully submit this to you,   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: St. Agnes Cathedral From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:42:07 -0500   The spec of this organ can be found at = http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/6393.htm. Brent Johnson ORGANLive - Music of the organ on demand www.organlive.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RMB10@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:19 AM Subject: St. Agnes Cathedral     Andrew said something in a post about the Wicks organ at St. Agnes = Cathedral having a lot of digital in it. I thought it was primarily a = pipe organ augmented with just a few digital stops in the Chancel = divisions as space savers. Has anyone on the list played it or heard = it? Just curious.....   Monty Bennett    
(back) Subject: Re: Mixture Reeds? From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:39:44 -0400   The big one in Atlantic City has many reed quints and tierces, but I can't cite any mixtures off the top of my head. Maybe in Spain??   -WG   > > >>Has anyone ever heard of a set of mixtures made from reeds? > >> > >>Mike Franch > >>in Madison, WI    
(back) Subject: Re: St. Agnes Cathedral From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:48:47 EDT   I looked over the specification: 81 ranks of pipes, 62 ranks of Walker Digital, 3 independant percussion stops, One borrow to the transcept great from the choir, eight to the main pedal, two to the Transcept pedal. There are 20 registers great, 13 registers Transcept Great and one Midi, Swell 21 registers, Choir 28 registers, Sanctuary Swell 15 registers one midi, Gallery Pedal 27 registers one chimes, Transcept Choir 17 registers one midi, Transcept Pedal 16 registers one midi. Counting playable registers 157, and four midi ports.   Now let's see 81 ranks of pipes at $17,500 per rank $1,417,500.00 opps we're over budget already now let's see 62 ranks of Walker Digital at $3,500 per $217,000. Looks to me to be over a million 600K. Let's put it this way, I don't think they got taken. If I were offered the job, I'd take it in a heartbeat, and be grateful. There's certainly nothing cheap about the Walker sound.   Thirty-two ranks or so of the Crystal Cathedral organ are Walker Digital as well. These were installed to fill a need, blank spots for hymn singing, if you can imagine such a thing. Now they sound better than pretty good too.   The St. Agnes organ appears to me to be close to a 70/30 percent split in favor of pipes. What else would a Cathedral organist possibly need? If the bill was only a cool million they got a bargain!   As you can see above I was very conservative in pricing out the pipes, and perhaps a little heavy on the cost of the digital, but I think I'm pretty close all the way around. Those were my best guesses at todays prices.   So there!   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: to David Scribner/administrator From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:12:10 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 7:50 AM Subject: Re: to David Scribner/administrator     > I probably could write much more, actually I have so far this morning > and erased it, but if I do it will be from my personal address as > just a list member and not as Administrator. All I ask is that > everyone RESPECT each other and LOVE each other as our God, no matter > what we believe, commands us to do.   I know we aren't supposed to say "Me too!" on this list, but speaking as someone who has been extremely upset by what has gone on on this list over the last two or three days, I hope everyone will forgive me for saying "Amen!"   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: church of the Redeemer From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:18:29 EDT   Dear List<   I was privileged to hear a magnificent KICK-A** organ today in Sarasota.   The huge Nichols and Simpson organ is truly a sonic wonder and i only wish = it were my privilege to play it every week.   Whether you are a TO the Glory of God player of to the glory of music it = is going to make sweet music for a long time.   Thanks gentleman for the opportunity to sneak a peek!   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: professional church musicians From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:20:04 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: <ameagher@stny.rr.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:19 PM Subject: Re: professional church musicians     Bud,   >You should report their violations of the building codes and FORCE them = to >deal with it. Don't go away too easy. Make them suffer a bit for the = way >they treated you!   Probably he should. But in real life it often isn't as easy as that. I have a friend who was dismissed from his post as an organist after twenty years of faithful service when a new pastor arrived who was a real jerk. = He soon got a new job in a church where he is very happy. However, it was = only some years later, and after the pastor concerned had come to a sticky end (so far as his career as a minister was concerned) over financial malfeasance, that my friend could even bear to drive past his old church. All of us have feelings, and sometimes these make these issues more difficult.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: top flues in reed rank From: "C. Joseph Nichols" <cjn@nicholsandsimpson.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:33:01 -0500   We at Nichols & Simpson routinely use doubled flues (8 +4) for 8' Trumpet type reed stops. On a big Bombarde we have used a truncated Cornet composition, I believe it contained a 3-1/5' rather than a tierce. With = 4' unit reed doubled flues we normally break back an octave around C# 50 . A straight 4' Clarion breaks back in reeds to 8' pitch at G#45 but a much brighter color than the pipes below and is doubled with a 4' flue pipe--57-61 are normal doubled (8+4) flues. A recent chamade had unison doubled flues, a fat one and a skinny one. Reasoning behind all of this? It is what sounds best to us in the room we are working in at the moment.   C. Joseph Nichols Nichols & Simpson, Inc. http://www,nicholsandsimpson.com    
(back) Subject: Bad manners? From: "Dennis Dieken" <dj5311@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:48:56 -0500   on 09/17/2003 7:12 PM, John L. Speller at jlspeller@mindspring.com wrote: > ............speaking as > someone who has been extremely upset by what has gone on on this list = over > the last two or three days, ...... > John Speller     Has Earthlink lost some of my Pipechat messages?   or was all the Bud-bashing on IRC?   I haven't seen anything that could cause these anguished requests for respect and understanding of each other. I'm not being nosy. If it's none = of my business, OK. But I am curious. You folks keep bringing it up.   Bud's music has been a big help to me this past year, since I've finally = got (just barely) adequate internet access. And he knows all the stuff I wish = my college teachers had bothered to pass on. I hope some ill-mannered person has not driven him away.   Dennis Dieken    
(back) Subject: Re: church of the Redeemer From: "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:48:12 -0400   Dale -=20   I was priveleged to see part of the installation when it first began = several months ago -- I was thoroughly impressed with the console = construction and the fact that everything is pretty much connected using = just a couple of runs of CAT-5 cable. I guess I'll have to drive back = down and see the finished install now   Tom Hoehn, Organist http://theatreorgans.com/tomhoehn Roaring Twenties Pizza and Pipes (substitute)(4/42 Wurlitzer) First United Methodist Church, Clearwater, FL (4/98 = Ruffati/Wicks/Rodgers) CFTOS/Manasota/OATOS/HiloBay/CIC-ATOS/VotS-ATOS/Dairyland-ATOS/AGO ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Keys4bach@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:18 PM Subject: Re: church of the Redeemer     Dear List<   I was privileged to hear a magnificent KICK-A** organ today in = Sarasota.   The huge Nichols and Simpson organ is truly a sonic wonder and i only = wish it were my privilege to play it every week. =20   Whether you are a TO the Glory of God player of to the glory of music = it is going to make sweet music for a long time.   Thanks gentleman for the opportunity to sneak a peek!=20   dale in Florida  
(back) Subject: Re: Opinions welcomed... (Long posting) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:51:01 -0400   On 6/3/03 8:02 PM, "Blair Anderson" <bda@shaw.ca> wrote:   > I need some opinions to determine whether or not our Choir Director and = myself > (organist) have been mis-treated or mislead.   Doesn't make much difference. What is, IS.   How "tied" are you (socially, culturally, professionally, economically, ecclesiastically) to your current city?   Your dad's paternal grandfather was a Lutheran? There are a fair number = of Lutheran churches in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Maybe one of them is = looking for you, without knowing your name.   Advertise in "The Canadian Lutheran" or whatever the magazine might be.   And let the Lord lead.   Alan    
(back) Subject: reaching Bud Clark? From: "Ray Kimber" <ray@kimber.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:00:17 -0600   Dear List,   I attempted to reach Bud, but the email I had for him from a couple of months ago was not working. Here is the text, perhaps he will see it or perhaps someone can privately email it to him.   Ray       HI Bud,   I'm sorry to take to long to tell you that I got your email of thanks. = You are very welcome!   I would also like to add that I am mostly a lurker and would struggle to even play chopsticks but dearly love the organ and organ music. I have greatly appreciated and enjoyed your participation on the lists, I want = you to stay.   I have some advice for you:   "Noli nothis permittere te terere"   and finally   "Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis habes"   With much kindness,     Ray Kimber          
(back) Subject: Re: St. Agnes Cathedral From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:08:58 -0500   That's a good point, Ron. One thing that doesn't show up in the spec is = that this organ has THREE large decorative cases that include playing = facade pipes across all three and gold trimming on the pipes and pipe = shades. There's also a polished copper en chamade reed in the Gallery. = Despite the stories about the builder, this organ was voiced and = completely tested in the shop, then underwent a complete tonal finishing = once installed in the church. This finishing was done by Charlie = Callahan, as requested by the church. Just some things to consider when = trying to remember why pipe organs cost so much. Brent Johnson ORGANLive - Music of the organ on demand www.organlive.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RonSeverin@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:48 PM Subject: Re: St. Agnes Cathedral     I looked over the specification: 81 ranks of pipes, 62 ranks of Walker Digital, 3 independant percussion stops, One borrow to the transcept great from the choir, eight to the main pedal, two to the Transcept = pedal. There are 20 registers great, 13 registers Transcept Great and one = Midi, Swell 21 registers, Choir 28 registers, Sanctuary Swell 15 registers = one midi, Gallery Pedal 27 registers one chimes, Transcept Choir 17 registers one midi, Transcept Pedal 16 registers one midi. Counting playable registers 157, and four midi ports.   Now let's see 81 ranks of pipes at $17,500 per rank $1,417,500.00 opps we're over budget already now let's see 62 ranks of Walker Digital at $3,500 per $217,000. Looks to me to be over a million 600K. Let's put it this way, I don't think they got taken. If I were offered the job, I'd take it in a heartbeat, and be grateful. There's certainly nothing cheap about the Walker sound.   Thirty-two ranks or so of the Crystal Cathedral organ are Walker Digital as well. These were installed to fill a need, blank spots for hymn singing, if you can imagine such a thing. Now they sound better than pretty good too.=20   The St. Agnes organ appears to me to be close to a 70/30 percent split in favor of pipes. What else would a Cathedral organist possibly need? If the bill was only a cool million they got a bargain!   As you can see above I was very conservative in pricing out the pipes, and perhaps a little heavy on the cost of the digital, but I think I'm pretty close all the way around. Those were my best guesses at todays prices.   So there!   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: RE: church of the Redeemer From: "Mari" <mreive@tampabay.rr.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:13:18 -0400   and the organist who presides over it isn't bad either! mari st pete -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Keys4bach@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:18 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: church of the Redeemer     Dear List<   I was privileged to hear a magnificent KICK-A** organ today in Sarasota.   The huge Nichols and Simpson organ is truly a sonic wonder and i only = wish it were my privilege to play it every week.   Whether you are a TO the Glory of God player of to the glory of music it is going to make sweet music for a long time.   Thanks gentleman for the opportunity to sneak a peek!   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Liturgical west end From: "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:09:43 -0400   The point I was trying to make is:   That even AFTER it was explained to this Architect that there IS NO liturgical mandate for organ placement, he just went on as if he hadn't been listening at all.     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY     On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:48:00 EDT Keys4bach@aol.com writes: In a message dated 9/17/2003 1:06:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, PEMMONS@wcupa.edu writes:     there any theory or liturgical principle in Presbyterianism that might underly this statement     my theological understanding of ANY Reformed Church is that the WORD AND TABLE are front and center and all else--ALL ELSE is secondary. That is why organs often were in the balcony or split chancel so the table could be central.   dale in Florida  
(back) Subject: United Church of Rogers Park From: "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:02:46 -0500   Hiyas,   Anyone in Chicago have any useful info on United Church of Rogers Park, at =   Ashland and Morse? Heard there was an opening there. Couldn't find much = on the web except contact info. Just in case my big fish don't bite. Specifically, what manner of instrument lives there and is that a safe neighborhood? I relish practicing in the small hours. I seem to remember = it being a little seedy in my CTA days. (used to drive the bus) Going on retreat this weekend and will be checking it out after. Will be busy impressing a lovely lady from Tennessee at Ascension's Berghaus-ed Schlicker. Anyone been there lately? New console, new mounted Cornet. Impressive--even gets wiggly wind when you play rapidly.   So, who else digs impressing the ladies with their, uh, keybored skills?   jim   O):^)   _________________________________________________________________ Try MSN Messenger 6.0 with integrated webcam functionality! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_webcam    
(back) Subject: Liturgical west end From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:37:03 -0400   Regarding Trinity Church, Wall Street, my recollection is that while it may have had a divided chancel originally, it has not had one for many years, at least not in the way St. Thomas Fifth Avenue has a divided chancel. My recollection from the Larry King years is that the choir was in the gallery with Larry.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: Re: Liturgical west end From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:42:51 EDT   In a message dated 9/17/03 8:39:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dbaker@lawyers.com writes:   << My recollection from the Larry King years is that the choir was in the gallery with Larry. >>   i thought the choir was in the kitchen with larry.   oh wait -- that was dinah, not larry...  
(back) Subject: RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was "enough is enough") From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:05:38 -0500   > Dear Jeff, > > I believe that you have missed the point....It's not that Clergy are = paid > too much...it's that musicians are paid too little ! > I believe that THIS is what was really being discussed !   Doug, I didn't miss the point. People keep comparing their package to the ones the clergy make. That's apples and oranges again. What we need to look at is other similar skills and pay. Granted, there's little to = compare to the organ work, but you do have educational degree, experience, = technical difficulty, daily work...all of which could be compared to other jobs.   All I was saying is that the clergy definitely EARNS their salaries and benefits in the church. I don't think we as organists/music directors = have the same headaches (we have our OWN) to deal with. THAT was my point. :)   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: Liturgical west end From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:19:55 -0500   And "West End" doesn't mean actual direction, right? The altar is considered "East", and the rest is self-explanatory?   I will admit that the majority of LCMS churches I've played in (and that number is quite a few) have the organ in the choir loft (rear or west end = of the church). However, the OLDEST Lutheran church (Trinity, Soulard) in = St. Louis has the organ up front, in the side balcony. St. Stephen's has it = in front, but the organist is off to the side, almost a split-choir = arrangment. Or maybe it was split...it's been too long. (That organ was a nightmare. = I don't know what held it together, and it played notes on the pedals with = the SLIGHTEST touch)   Concordia University, River Forest, has the organ off to the side (or South), along with the choir. That room is unique. The first 1/3 of the pews are not fastened to the floor. They can either face the altar = (east), the performance stage (north) or the choir loft and organ (south).   But Alan's right...most of the others I can think of have the organ in the back. Holy Trinity's is up front (ELCA) and I love it there. Not because I'm in front of the people, but just because I like being up near the = altar and the conveniences that entails. For example, the bells play behind the altar in the big area, and if Pastor needs to ask or tell me something, = he's right there. I don't have to traipse (sp?) down the aisle to commune. = I'm a happy camper. :) Plus it makes it a BREEZE to do concerts, especially = if the organ is used!   Regards,   Jeff   > But LCMS Lutherans (who ape NOone), and Western states Lutherans = generally > stuck with the European Lutheran model--west end. Examples: Lutheran > cathedrals in Stockholm and Uppsala. Ulm. Valparaiso Univ. Chapel. > > Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: professional church musicians From: "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:31:51 -0500   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part