PipeChat Digest #3986 - Thursday, September 18, 2003
 
Re: United Church of Rogers Park
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
Re: expense of pipe organs
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: Roger Wagner's Wicks
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: St. Agnes Cathedral
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: to David Scribner/administrator
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: Bud's Departure
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: expense of pipe organs
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: disheartening
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: Catherine Crozier
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com>
RE: expense of pipe organs
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: expense of pipe organs
  by "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: United Church of Rogers Park From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:32:52 -0500   Back when I studied organ with Ben Hadley at Ascension, I recall a fellow student one evening in 1966 coming in and interrupting my practice. He had taken a young woman out to dinner and decided to bring her to the = Schlicker and to impress her with his musical prowess. He was okay when sober, but = he was three sheets to the wind that evening and made a total fool of = himself. I doubt if he was in any shape even to know it the next day, and I never = saw him with that particular woman again.   My most recent visit to Ascension was last December 1, when the choir did = a fine job on my carol "The Lord at First Did Adam Make" (published by OUP, pardon the shameless plug). Before that, Tom Wikman (a onetime college roommate and now choirmaster there) and I started an organ crawl there one day in May 2002. It was my first experience with that French-style = terraced console. I loved the old Schlicker console with its rows of stop tabs = right in front of the player. All the stops were easily manipulated in this configuration. The console might have been a bit high, but the choir was = on risers, so conducting from the console was no problem. I was not so happy with the stop placement on the new console, with some stops at arm's = length and disconcertingly almost beyond my peripheral vision. And they have to = be pulled and pushed much like stops on a harmonium. I suppose one can adjust to this. I played for maybe a half hour, and Tom did most of the = registering while I improvised or played, so I didn't give the layout a fair chance.   I used to go to Rogers Park in the early 80s to buy interesting orchestral LPs. There were murders in the neighborhood a while back, but perhaps = things have settled down. The presence of Loyola University is a good thing, I presume.   I met my then-wife-to-be because of my organ playing. I fear I've told = this story too many times: Palm Sunday 1962 at Chicago's Episcopal Cathedral of St. James. Barbara (a nonorganist but high-church Episcopalian) heard the prelude, Franck's Choral in a, as, according to her, she'd never heard it before (interestingly, Tom Wikman was also there that day). She went up to Leo Sowerby at the coffee hour after the service and thanked him for = playing the Franck so beautifully. He pointed me out and said that she should = thank the young man who played the piece. That started the romance and a 36-year marriage that, most unfortunately, ended with her death after a long = illness 2-1/2 years ago.   My brother recently divorced and is now remarried. His new wife, not a musician but a lover of classical music (as is my brother), is crazy about organ music. What are the chances of that, I wonder? Come to think of it, = I do know some nonmusician, non-AGO women who like organ music, but they're all married. Good luck, James!   Bob Lind   ----- Original Message ----- From: james nerstheimer <enigma1685@hotmail.com>   > Hiyas, > > Anyone in Chicago have any useful info on United Church of Rogers Park, = at > Ashland and Morse? Heard there was an opening there. Couldn't find = much on > the web except contact info. Just in case my big fish don't bite. > Specifically, what manner of instrument lives there and is that a safe > neighborhood? I relish practicing in the small hours. I seem to = remember it > being a little seedy in my CTA days. (used to drive the bus) Going on > retreat this weekend and will be checking it out after. Will be busy > impressing a lovely lady from Tennessee at Ascension's Berghaus-ed > Schlicker. Anyone been there lately? New console, new mounted Cornet. > Impressive--even gets wiggly wind when you play rapidly. > > So, who else digs impressing the ladies with their, uh, keybored skills? > > jim      
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:48:47 -0400   Ron,   If you are referring to my statements about Wicks then you are worng=2E I= DO know what I am talking about as my last two positions have been on Wicks organs=2E Both intruments are horribly voiced and NEVER I repeat NEVER ar= e=20 in tune=2E I have yet to play a well-built/well-voiced instrument by this=   builder=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: RonSeverin@aol=2Ecom Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:42:33 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs     Dear Chatters:   I've been reading stuff from a guy on this list that just doesn't ring tru= e=2E His knowledge of both the pipe organ and the digital market is next to nil=2E He keeps bashing one particular organ builder with totally outlandish statements about which he knows next to=20 nothing=2E I for one don't wish to enter into a food fight with him, which he's been itching to start all day=2E I for one don't wish to read malicious material and so from now on I will press press the delete button=2E I did want to express in some way how I feel about this=2E It's unnecessary, unethical and just plain wrong=2E   Ron Severin     -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: RE: Roger Wagner's Wicks From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:51:20 -0400   Monty,   When I read it I thought to myself that "the squirrel" doesn't sound like = a Daquin piece=2E=2E=2Elol   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: XIMQZUIVOTQNQE Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:15:55 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: RE: Roger Wagner's Wicks     >Monty, > >I saw one of your recital programs listed in this months TAO=2E > >Andrew   The funny thing about that concert listing is that they only listed half the=20 program and even then it's still screwed up=2E=2E=2E=2E=2ED'Aquin did not = compose "The=20 Squirrel" as listed, it was written by Powell Weaver=2E I did a set of pieces=20 based on animals--The Cuckoo, The Squirrel, and Robert Elmore's "Donkey Dance=2E" =20   Monty Bennett     -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: RE: St. Agnes Cathedral From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:52:52 -0400   MOnty,   I remember the specs being about 70 ranks of pipes and a total of about 150=2E That's about half digital=2E I will have too double check for the=   exact numbers, but that is what I remmeber=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: VTLBXFGGMEPYOQ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:19:23 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: St=2E Agnes Cathedral     Andrew said something in a post about the Wicks organ at St=2E Agnes Cathedral=20 having a lot of digital in it=2E I thought it was primarily a pipe organ=20=   augmented with just a few digital stops in the Chancel divisions as space=   savers=2E =20 Has anyone on the list played it or heard it? Just curious=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=     Monty Bennett     -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: to David Scribner/administrator From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:56:57 -0400   Thanks David=2E I knew you'd come through=2E While I have disagreed with=   people and stated my opinion I have never attacked anyone or been disrespectful and I agree that that is what everyone else should do=2E=20 Thanks again=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: MHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPT Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:50:11 -0500 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: to David Scribner/administrator     At 1:03 AM -0400 9/17/03, ameagher@stny=2Err=2Ecom wrote: >I was not on IRC last night and never have done the IRC thing but am >enraged about how people treated Bud in IRC and on the e-mail list and ma= de >him leave=2E David, I am not going to tell you what to do about this, b= ut I >think you have to do something because we are losing our best chatters an= d >that is not in your best interest or the rest of the chatters best >interest=2E You have always been prompt in responding to everything else= so >I know it's only a matter of time before you take action, but I just want= ed >to express my opinion that something has to be done=2E I have enjoyed >belonging to your chat so far and hope that things will be straightened o= ut >soon=2E   Andrew and everyone else   Don't think I haven't been struggling with this whole business since=20 Monday night's IRC session and after reading the various postings=20 yesterday and trying to figure out what to say=2E   This discussion, for the most part, has been respectful, but some=20 things were said on IRC the other evening that set-off some of the=20 feelings/discussion yesterday=2E People on this list range from people=20=   who have degrees in Church Music/ Organ and are or have been full=20 time church musicians to people that might have degrees in music or=20 maybe no degree and basically volunteer in their churches to provide=20 music=2E We also vary from people living in large cities where there=20 are churches with full-time musical staffs to people that serve in=20 rural churches that struggle to keep the doors open=2E Each "side" has=20=   a valid viewpoint based on where they are but unfortunately some=20 people, especially those who are the volunteers, cannot see the=20 other's viewpoint=2E   So far I have been sitting here writing and erasing and rewriting for=20 over an hour=2E This whole issue has so many viewpoints that I find=20 there is no clear cut answer so any of this=2E We all come from=20 different places and different traditions and trying to keep my=20 personal feelings out of the equation is very difficult=2E So with=20 this I just am going to end and ask that each of your, no matter=20 where you are coming from, RESPECT each other's viewpoint=2E What I=20 saw the other evening on IRC, that people were disparaging each=20 other's views=2E   I probably could write much more, actually I have so far this morning=20 and erased it, but if I do it will be from my personal address as=20 just a list member and not as Administrator=2E All I ask is that=20 everyone RESPECT each other and LOVE each other as our God, no matter=20 what we believe, commands us to do=2E   David --=20 **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: RE: Bud's Departure From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:59:13 -0400   Richard,   You are right=2E "made him leave" was probably the wrong choice of words=2E= =20 However I am angry that people were disrespectful towards Bud as David sai= d and made him feel unwelcome=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: KSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:01:51 -0500 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Bud's Departure     Hi, Andrew: =20 You wrote: =20 > I was not on IRC last night and never have done the=20 > IRC thing but am enraged about how people treated Bud=20 > in IRC and on the e-mail list and made him leave=2E=2E=2E=2E =20 Whoa! Aren't we comparing apples and oranges? Who MADE=20 Bud leave? =20 =20 When we participate in discussions with free-thinkers,=20 aren't we inviting our own thoughts to be challenged? =20 In such an environment, no one MAKES us do anything=2E =20 From my own experience on these discussion lists, I can=20 assure you that it is possible to state something that=20 sounds outrageous to others, =2E=2E=2E=2Eand then we receive the=20 close scrutiny of that absurdity=2E That is what all=20 intelligent discussion is about=2E Be reasonable=2E If we=20 cannot be reasonable, then, perhaps, Bud did the best=20 thing for him=2E =20 =20 The pain of rejection is intense=2E It can seathe inside=20 a person for months, =2E=2E=2Emaybe, years=2E Let's be sympathetic=20 to his hurt, but let's also understand that open discussion=20 is "open" discussion=2E =20 Appreciatively, F=2E Richard Burt =20 =20 =2E "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: RE: expense of pipe organs From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:11:47 -0500   Andrew...take heart...there are some. I've played on a couple of them locally here, and as you might suspect, western IL is loaded with them. = The one I played on for two years was not their best work. Just a little eight-rank super-unified 2 manual instrument. Overall, it wasn't bad. No mixtures, which I'm fond of for rousing hymn-singing. They moved the = entire instrument into the new sanctuary without revoicing. Now the 1-1/3' screeches and there is little umph behind it. The real trouble is the congregation thinks its the greatest thing since sliced bread. This instrument would benefit even from adding digital ranks...just to make it BETTER. Plenty of room for more pipes, though...maybe some day. Right = now the new building (which was around a million) is costing too much. Hopefully someday, if they continue to grow, they'll do more with the = organ.   Jeff     > Ron, > > If you are referring to my statements about Wicks then you are > worng. I DO > know what I am talking about as my last two positions have been on Wicks > organs. Both intruments are horribly voiced and NEVER I repeat NEVER = are > in tune. I have yet to play a well-built/well-voiced instrument by this > builder. > > Andrew    
(back) Subject: RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:10:08 -0400   Jeff,   I have a master's dgeree too and as music directer I too have to deal with=   angry and upset parishoners and prepare for worship=2E In addition to tha= t I have responsibilities that the pastor does not have such as directing 5 ensembles =2E I also have to supervise empolyees as I have an associate director of music working under me=2E (I don't like the word supervise however, because she is a professional too and I like to treat it more as someone working WITH me as opposed to UNDER MY SUPERVISION=2E But I still=   have to spend time talking to her and figuring out the breakdown of duties= =2E My point is that I have every bit as many responsibilities as the pastor being the full-time director of music=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: RWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNB Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:45:50 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Clergy pay vs=2E Musician pay (was "enough is enough")     My two cents=2E=2E=2Eok, two and a half:   BUT, let's take into consideration that the clergy also=20 gets calls in the middle of the night, deals with=20 counseling (mental and grief), has to prepare for worship,=20 write sermons, deal with angry and upset parishoners,=20 ensure that things get done, manage the committees and=20 boards needs as they hand him/her stuff, maintain the=20 spiritual welfare of their flocks, supervise "employees"=20 (note the quotes), etc=2E I, as a musician, do not feel=20 near the amount of stress and pressure the clergy feels=2E=20 Plus, these folks have at least Masters degrees, and in a=20 lot of cases, doctoral degrees=2E In my humble but=20 outspoken opinion, they really earn their wages=2E I would=20 NOT want to trade places, not even for the chance to be in=20 church work full time=2E   Regards, jeff   >> The great majority of churches seem to be well able to=20 >>support their clergy at >> a high standard, house them, and keep the physical plant=20 >>and many other >> programs going and pay salaries for a multitude of=20 >>assistants, secretaries, >> and so on=2E =20 <TEXTAREA NAME=3D"Signature" ROWS=3D"4" COLS=3D"60"> "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: disheartening From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:12:00 -0400   Great Doug! I'm glad they didn't let the architech overstep their bounds and tell everyone what to do!   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: Douglas A=2E Campbell dougcampbell@juno=2Ecom Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:12:46 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: disheartening       > Andrew Meagher writes: >=20 > >That architect way overstepped his/her bounds and took control over=20 > decisions > that are not his/her place and that he/she is unqualified to make=2E =20=   A TRUE STORY:   In the early discussion for the new organ at my church (Presbyterian), there was a lengthy discussion with a noted "church" architect about the possibility of turning the Sanctuary 180 degrees=2E At this huge meeting (=   session, the Organ Task Force, the Music and Worship committee, the building committee et al=2E), the architect made the statement that the organ HAD to be located at the West End for LITURGICAL reasons=2E   Our Pastor at the time, the Rev=2E Dr=2E Thomas pointed out that there was= NO liturgical necessity for placement of an organ and in fact, in his experience of visiting literally thousands of Presbyterian Churches he felt that about half of the churches had a Chancel installation and the other half a Gallery=2E=20   The architect then went on with his presentation and not 5 minutes later said, "Of course, the organ MUST be in the back to be liturgically correct"=2E   When it actually came time to reconstruct the Sanctuary, a new architect was selected and lo, and behold, our new organ sit proudly at the EAST end !     Douglas A=2E Campbell Skaneateles, NY   ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14=2E95/ month - visit www=2Ejuno=2Ecom to sign up today! "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: Catherine Crozier From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:24:05 -0400   Ron,   I am not old enough to remember her as an organist, but I have and teach from her husbands organ method book=2E She is responsible for keeping it updated and it has been a temendous aid to me in teaching an learning the organ so that is mainly how she touched my career=2E Anyways, I will kee= p her in my poreyers and I hope she is ok=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: CUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPN Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:51:35 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Catherine Crozier     This I heard through the grapevine this morning, that Catherine Crozier Gleason has suffered a massive stroke at the age of eighty-nine=2E I think some prayers would be helpful to her=2E She may not live through this episode=2E Let's keep her close=2E She is a wonderful teacher, and performer=2E   I regretfully submit this to you,   Ron Severin     -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:27:59 -0500   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: RE: expense of pipe organs From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:38:56 -0400   Jeff,   I'm sure there are better ones=2E I just don't have any other basis for comment other than the ones that I played=2E Hopefully I'll get to play s= ome good ones someday=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: FJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRK Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:11:47 -0500 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: RE: expense of pipe organs     Andrew=2E=2E=2Etake heart=2E=2E=2Ethere are some=2E I've played on a coup= le of them locally here, and as you might suspect, western IL is loaded with them=2E = The one I played on for two years was not their best work=2E Just a little eight-rank super-unified 2 manual instrument=2E Overall, it wasn't bad=2E= No mixtures, which I'm fond of for rousing hymn-singing=2E They moved the en= tire instrument into the new sanctuary without revoicing=2E Now the 1-1/3' screeches and there is little umph behind it=2E The real trouble is the congregation thinks its the greatest thing since sliced bread=2E This instrument would benefit even from adding digital ranks=2E=2E=2Ejust to ma= ke it BETTER=2E Plenty of room for more pipes, though=2E=2E=2Emaybe some day=2E= Right now the new building (which was around a million) is costing too much=2E Hopefully someday, if they continue to grow, they'll do more with the orga= n=2E   Jeff     > Ron, > > If you are referring to my statements about Wicks then you are > worng=2E I DO > know what I am talking about as my last two positions have been on Wicks=   > organs=2E Both intruments are horribly voiced and NEVER I repeat NEVER = are > in tune=2E I have yet to play a well-built/well-voiced instrument by th= is > builder=2E > > Andrew   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:00:31 -0500   I certainly believe that throwing a few darts into the collection of all of the Wicks installations in the world, one would easily chance to = hit instruments of undesirable design and tonal quality. I don't in any way feel the need to argue with Andrew's experiences with Wicks organs. I = myself have encountered many such instruments. What I would like to do is to remind Andrew and everyone else on the list is that Wicks has been building pipe organs since 1906, and there are some 6400 new instruments, and countless rebuilds of other makes, as well = as complete instruments sold to other builders for them to assemble. One can almost look at the specification, the style of pipe construction, the console design, or the tonal quality and guess at least the decade, if not close to the year of construction. Over the period of almost 100 years, = the company has been made up of different people, different craftsmen, = different designers, and different tonal directors. The result is visible waves of changes in tonal design, voicing, pipe making, design, sales, and philosophies. These different aspects didn't all change at the same time, but they did change over the company's history. Thanks durability of = design and construction of these organs, though, it's possible to compare a Wicks organ from 1935 with one from 1965, and with one from 1995. There's not many companies that can easily accomplish that (that are still operating today). An dubious distinction for the company is that sales of = instruments during the 60s and 70s were incredible with the company's output around 2 organs a week. Now there are instruments from this period in almost every little town, making it easy to think that's all that exists of the Wicks Organ Company. The churches that bought them rarely needed to replace = them, so they're still out there today. If you've heard a little two or three rank instrument borrowed ad nauseum, remember that for the majority of = it's life, Wicks has been competing with electronics, and in those instances, Wicks was able to provide real pipes to a church at a competitive price = over an electronic, and that was what the church chose.   If you've heard a Wicks organ from the 60's, 70's, 80's, or from even more recently and weren't impressed with the tonal design, many of the people at Wicks agree with you. Many of the people at Wicks weren't even alive when many of these instruments were built. To those who must = speak ill of Wicks organs, feel free, this is certainly they type of forum for expression, but if you must insist that the company has always built and = is still building organs like a few examples you've heard, then it's time for = a little education.   Brent     ----- Original Message ----- From: <ameagher@stny.rr.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 11:48 PM Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs     Ron,   If you are referring to my statements about Wicks then you are worng. I = DO -->worng? know what I am talking about as my last two positions have been on Wicks organs. Both intruments are horribly voiced and NEVER I repeat NEVER are in tune. I have yet to play a well-built/well-voiced instrument by this builder.   Andrew