PipeChat Digest #3988 - Thursday, September 18, 2003 Atlantic City by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> RE: Catherine Crozier by "Mari" <email@example.com> Mark's divorce gospel by <Keys4bach@aol.com> PLAYing Music by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) by "Dennis Goward" <email@example.com> Serious misrepresentation by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Serious misrepresentation by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: reaching Bud Clark? by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re: Liturgical west end by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: PipeChat Digest #3986 - 09/18/03 by "Kenneth Potter" <email@example.com> Re: Liturgical west end by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> CD Sheet Music Choral Works Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, M by "William T. Van Pelt" <email@example.com> Re: Serious misrepresentation by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Mark's divorce gospel by <ContraReed@aol.com> Re: expense of pipe organs by "Jeff White" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Wicks organs by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> PS about Wicks by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Re: Mixture Reeds? by "Stephen Best" <email@example.com> Memories of a junior organ builder 01 by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> top flues in reed rank by "Mark Nelson" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Atlantic City From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:50:46 -0400 Good morning all, Is there any indication of how things are going down in the Atlantic City Organ camp? The last news update on the site is still at May 30, 2003 - I think. My feeling has been that if folks don't want to shell out the 11-12 Million to do a full restore/blower relocate on the organ, it might be necessary to develop a plan B for the organ. I don't consider it rocket science to tray/clean pipes, perform basic assemble/dissasemble operations, re-felt pipe racks, or even wind valves under good direction, etc... My thought is perhaps there is a decent size group of organ fans (non-techies) that would love to have the opportunity to get their hands dirty in a way they don't get to do every day. Under the direction of = some experienced folk the bunch might be able to mob the 1 currently = operational chamber and get it back up and running (after the coating of construction dust) so that the organ can earn it's keep. I believe a playing organ = will advertise itself more than a silent one. These are all just thoughts of mine, perhaps in foolish youthful impatience and idealism, yet I don't = think it's a stretch to have a work weekend or two, or even a week to knock it out, chest-by-chest. Am I wacko? Sure I am. = -Nate "The naive apprentice"
(back) Subject: RE: Catherine Crozier From: "Mari" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:03:56 -0400 I have heard her play 3x, and she and her husband have stayed at our house several times. My dad did post-grad studies with her when she was at Rollins. A real giant in the field. Mari -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf Of email@example.com Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 1:24 AM To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: Catherine Crozier Ron, I am not old enough to remember her as an organist, but I have and teach from her husbands organ method book. She is responsible for keeping it updated and it has been a temendous aid to me in teaching an learning the organ so that is mainly how she touched my career. Anyways, I will keep her in my poreyers and I hope she is ok. Andrew Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: CUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPN Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:51:35 -0400 (EDT) To: email@example.com Subject: Re: Catherine Crozier This I heard through the grapevine this morning, that Catherine Crozier Gleason has suffered a massive stroke at the age of eighty-nine. I think some prayers would be helpful to her. She may not live through this episode. Let's keep her close. She is a wonderful teacher, and performer. I regretfully submit this to you, Ron Severin -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Administration: mailto:email@example.com Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Mark's divorce gospel From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:25:55 EDT HI List, Upon further review of my preludes and postludes for the final 2 months of = the church year I decided I needed to change previously selected pieces = for the first Sunday in October. In The ELCA the lesson is the divorce issue. The prelude is NOW: Hark. A voice saith, All Men are Mortal the postlude is HOW: O, Whither shall I Flee dale in Florida
(back) Subject: PLAYing Music From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:34:55 -0500 Hey, Guys and Gals: I just had a "flash" of insight that just might bear on this whole discussion. How are we (musicians) perceived by the people and the rest of the church staff? We are people who PLAY music. Could it possibly be that any profession that PLAYs at his/her work is seriously compared with those who WORK for a living? At no time in my career have I ever thought of what I do as anything other than WORK, regardless of what we call it. Listening to the banter on this list for the past week or two causes me to wonder if there is not a more serious flaw in how we speak of the work we do for a living. Anyone have a better way to describe PLAYing music? F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "Dennis Goward" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:44:39 -0700 >My point is that I have every bit as many responsibilities as the pastor >being the full-time director of music. I respectfully disagree with you there, on two points: From the temporal side: The pastor is literally a head of a corporation. In most states, = individual congregations are viewed as corporations under state laws, and the pastor = is the chief executive officer of that congregation. He has legal responsibilites as would any CEO. He can be called on to sign legal documents, and if those documents are wrong, may be one who "pays the price". As CEO, he is responsible to the stockholders, (the parishoners) for the temporal affairs of the congregation -- that's money matters. = There have been many pastors who have lost their jobs and maybe even careers = over the financial malfeasencses of a congregation. From the spiritual side: The pastor is the one God holds accountable for the souls of that congregation. No matter how good the parish musician is, he/she will not have to give an account to God for the spiritual wellbeing of the congregation. Yes, I know no one goes out whistling the sermon, but by = the same token, they don't risk damnation for trying to live a non-scriptural postlude. D
(back) Subject: Serious misrepresentation From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:54:08 EDT Ladies and Gentlemen: Do NOT post messages with items such as "okay, dudes, 50 ranks at = 20,000 per rank, that's a million dollar pipe organ!" Just stop it. It is wrong, it is misleading, and it may be the reason YOUR church doesn't even consider a real pipe organ in the future. The organ imitation industry doesn't NEED to create bad publicity for = the pipe organ, with all these apparent organ company CFOs pre-quoting pipe = organ prices to the world that are so overinflated and damaging to the field. = We've constantly been assaulted on these internet chatlists with that mythical "thirty-grand-per-rank" organ company, and it's got to stop -- unless you = have access to their financial records and are willing to back up what you say. If you actually PAID thirty thousand dollars per rank (is that for a = 32' Open Wood or a 1' Sifflote?) something is catastrophically wrong with the picture. That is VERY different from truthful experiences, or postings such as "after evaluating three bids, our church raised 87,000 dollars toward the = 122,000 we needed for the project." Or, "the builder quoted us $7,340 for the new rank of pipes, racking, installation, voicing, and tonal finishing, so we = have our work cut out for us, but I really want that stop." Rumors are as destructive to pipe organs as they are to lives and = careers. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City
(back) Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation From: "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:25:05 -0500 Good Morning, Seb: You wrote: * * * > It is wrong, it is misleading, and it may be the reason > YOUR church doesn't even consider a real pipe organ in > the future. > We've constantly been assaulted on these internet chatlists > with that mythical "thirty-grand-per-rank" organ company, > and it's got to stop... Okay. We just stopped. Can you offer a relatively current expectation for what we might expect to pay for a reasonably priced two-manual service organ of, ...say 27 stops? This would not be an exotic organ with something for every situation. Just a well balanced bread and butter, reliable service organ for a church room seating about 700 to 900 people. Maybe you can offer previously used pipes; that I will leave to you as the one responsible for the tonal finish of the end product. If there is price advantage, compare the judicious use of older ranks with what it would cost to purchase all new pipes. Curious minds want to know, and you have proven to be reasonable in these matters. Appreciatively, F. Richar Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: Re: reaching Bud Clark? From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:53:15 -0400 On 9/17/03 9:00 PM, "Ray Kimber" <email@example.com> wrote: > Dear List, > > I attempted to reach Bud, but the email I had for him from a couple of > months ago was not working. Here is the text, perhaps he will see it or > perhaps someone can privately email it to him. > Forwarded to him. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Liturgical west end From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:58:38 -0400 On 9/17/03 11:37 PM, "David Baker" <email@example.com> wrote: > Regarding Trinity Church, Wall Street, my recollection is that while it > may have had a divided chancel originally, it has not had one for many > years, at least not in the way St. Thomas Fifth Avenue has a divided > chancel. My recollection from the Larry King years is that the choir > was in the gallery with Larry. I'm glad you're mentioning that. After I posted I got to thinking back about it, and got less certain about it. I'm glad you've clarified. Even odder is the Bruton Parish Church, in Williamsburg, Vir. I think it underwent at least one total reversal of orientation. Same with St. = James, Madison Ave., NYC. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3986 - 09/18/03 From: "Kenneth Potter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:02:08 -0700 (PDT) In today's digest there were 13 postings. NINE of them were from the same person. One was from someone whose only reason for writing was to defend his organ company against that persons allegations. I think we've been hijacked. Ken --- PipeChat <email@example.com> wrote: > PipeChat Digest #3986 - Thursday, September 18, 2003 > > Re: United Church of Rogers Park > by "Robert Lind" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > Re: expense of pipe organs > by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > RE: Roger Wagner's Wicks > by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > RE: St. Agnes Cathedral > by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > Re: to David Scribner/administrator > by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > RE: Bud's Departure > by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > RE: expense of pipe organs > by "Jeff White" <email@example.com> > RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) > by "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> > Re: disheartening > by "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> > Re: Catherine Crozier > by "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> > RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) > by "Ray Ahrens" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > RE: expense of pipe organs > by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > Re: expense of pipe organs > by "Brent Johnson" <email@example.com> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Kenneth Potter, Organist/Director of Music St. Peter's Episcopal Church, Westchester Square, Bronx, NY 845/358-2528 <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Austin Op. 2097 at: = http://www.nycago.org/Organs/html/StPetersEpBronx.html Randolph Organ Company, curators =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Liturgical west end From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:25:27 -0400 On 9/18/03 12:19 AM, "Jeff White" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > And "West End" doesn't mean [compass] direction, right? The altar is > considered "East", and the rest is self-explanatory? Yes. >=20 > Concordia University, River Forest, has the organ off to the side (or > South), along with the choir. That room is unique. The first 1/3 of the > pews are not fastened to the floor. They can either face the altar (east= ), > the performance stage (north) or the choir loft and organ (south). >=20 Well, NEARLY unique. The biggest example of something of that sort is at the M=FCnster at Ulm, Germany. Chancel accommodates the folks for the early service (with it's own organ high on the south wall). (Abendmal.) But for the "big" service they use the nave. It's what they call a triple-nave church (or something like that--"three-aisle"?); that is, north and south aisles are as big as the (central) nave. So they have an altar IN the nave= , two-thirds of the way back, against a north column and rotated counterclockwise 90 degrees (with the ancient pulpit high above it, against the column). Pews are one-third (westermost) facing east, one-third in the south half of the central nave, facing the altar from the south, and one-third in the east end of the nave, facing WEST (and thus facing that altar). That last group of pews has switchable pew-backs, so they can make them east-facing pews fairly handily. (All these pews are modern; the ancient pews (crude benches) are in the south aisle, unused. As I recall, the north aisle is pretty much empty, but big enough for a basketball game.= ) The nave organ is HIGH in a west-end loft, over the narthex. In terms of seating (at least) this arrangement (which I suspect is post WW2) was ahead of its time, I think, and not awfully unlike what's done nowadays in a lot of Anglican and Roman parishes. Alan
(back) Subject: CD Sheet Music Choral Works Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, Mendelssohn From: "William T. Van Pelt" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:05:57 -0400 CD Sheet Music has issued two new CD-Roms containing the major choral = works of Haydn Mozart and Beethoven on one CD-R, and the major choral works of Brahms, Schubert, and Mendelssohn on the other. They are both listed on = the opening page of the OHS Catalog http://www.ohscatalog.org The cost is $18.95 per CD-R to non-OHS members, and $17.50 to members. The first offers piano/vocal scores of Haydn's Creation, 9 masses, and 5 other works (all listed at the OHS Catalog site); Mozart's Requiem, = C-minor Mass, Coronation Mass, Ave Verum, 5 other masses, 9 other works; = Beethoven's C-major Mass, Choral Fantasy, Missa Solemnis, and the final movement of Symphony 9 (Ode to Joy) The second contains piano/vocal scores of Schubert's 6 masses, 7 other works; Mendelssohn's Elijah, St. Paul, 5 Psalm Settings, 9 other works; Brahms' German Requiem (English & German versions) Schicksalslied, Zigeunerlieder, Liebeslieder Waltzes, and 4 more These CD-Rs contain scores that may be viewed and printed by any PC or MAC computer which is equipped with a CD drive. There are several other = releases that have been available for the past three years or so. The most popular = is the Complete Organ Works of J. S. Bach, of course. There's also a large compilation of French Romantic Organ Music which is very popular, as well = as all of the choral works of Bach and Handel. All of the scores are in the public domain, so there are no copyright issues involved in printing as = many copies as desired for performing groups, etc. The editions from which = these scores are copied are generally not identified by the maker of the CD = Sheet Music CD-Rs, but are often recognizable. For instance, most of the Bach materials are Bach Gesellschaft editions.
(back) Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:18:34 EDT In a message dated 9/18/2003 9:32:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > with that mythical "thirty-grand-per-rank" organ company, > >and it's got to stop... > I always understood this to be an average after all moneys totaled and = then divided by rank. a Sifflote 1 would certainly cost less than a 32 anything. Am I correct in guessing the console remains one of the most costly items? thanks dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Mark's divorce gospel From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:42:11 -0400 In a message dated 9/18/2003 7:25:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Keys4bach = writes: > In The ELCA the lesson is the divorce issue. How about for an anthem: "Turn Back, O Man" Richard (ducking)
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "Jeff White" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:10:33 -0400 Brent, I hope my message didn't give the impression that I would speak ill; my experience was just with that one particular instrument, but I can DEFINITELY say that I've played on stinkers of other makes, including Schlicker and Moller. I will say that I've completely rethought my position, though, after I toured the factory last year. I was very impressed with quite a lot. Wicks is one of the few shops that "does it all." They make everything single component (except for the combination action?)...the Direct-Electric (I'm sure there's a symbol needed here.."R", or "TM") action, all of the casework, and the pipes themselves. I would DEFINITELY talk with this company when the day comes to expand our organ...which I hope is while I'm still young! LOL! Jeff On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:00:31 -0500 "Brent Johnson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: >To >those who must speak >ill of Wicks organs, feel free, this is certainly they >type of forum for >expression, but if you must insist that the company has >always built and is >still building organs like a few examples you've heard, >then it's time for a >little education.
(back) Subject: Wicks organs From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:14:33 -0500 (CDT) With a few exceptions, just about every builder has some less-than-stellar instruments. However, maybe because of the amount of organs cranked out and the uneven quality through the years, Wicks does seem to win the prize. There are some from the 50's that are quite grand. Then there are instruments from the 60's that are amateurish in every way. I think some of it also rests with the abilities of the local installer. You wonder how many organs are just pulled out of the crates and put together. I play on a 1965 Wicks of 19 ranks that was revoiced by the rep in 1989 before my time. He did a marvelous job. The 8' Principal is wonderfully "vocal". Since my arrival, we've moved some ranks, did a little nicking on the Swell flute, and it's even better! If you've got a nasty Wicks, there maybe hope! However, a friend of mine plays a 40-rank Wicks from 1969 that might need to be melted-down before being revoiced :o I do think Wicks has really pulled its act together from what I've heard.
(back) Subject: PS about Wicks From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:28:58 -0500 (CDT) On the 1965 instrument, not all of the workings were solid-state, so we replaced those parts. Apparently, that got rid of the infamous "whoop" when the valves closed...they stopped bouncing because they closed too fast??
(back) Subject: Re: Mixture Reeds? From: "Stephen Best" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:00:34 -0400 An organ once in this community had an astonishing (maybe the wrong word) four rank mixture called the "Ripieno," derived by "creative" wiring from a trumpet stop that was equally astonishing (almost definitely the wrong word). Can't imagine what its purpose might have been, let along how to use it. The rest of the instrument was conceived along equally astonishing (there's that word again) principles. There was great rejoicing when the instrument finally met its blessed end. Steve Best in Utica, NY > > >>Has anyone ever heard of a set of mixtures made from reeds? >> >>Mike Franch >>in Madison, WI >> >> >>
(back) Subject: Memories of a junior organ builder 01 From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:37:22 -0400 Andres Gunther email@example.com Dear List, A few days ago in another organ forum a letter from an ambicious young ma= n (age 14) who wants to build an organ for his school started a short threa= d and stirred some long forgotten memories. This little series is all but sholarly but everything I relate here happened for real. I hope you enjoy it. MEMORIES OF A JUNIOR ORGAN BUILDER (part 01) Who of us wasn't captivated by the King of Insrtruments at early age? Who= of us didn't begin to dream while listening to records which featured all it= s majesty? Who of us didn't feel the burning desire to have such an instrument? And: who of us didn't project to build one on his or her own? Well, some of us started to realize this dream as Juniors. Me too. But th= e King of Instruments doesn't make it easy at all. Nevertheless I had a gre= at time and collected my first technical experiences. Now, some of us who started this way are more or less 'in the field'. If = as worldwide renowned organ builder, specialized restorer or simple countrys= ide technician, it doesn't matter: We are here, working in the Lord's Vineyard... In May 1974 I made my mind up to become an Organ Performer after listenin= g to Widor's 5th simphony. And no, it wasn't the (in)famous toccata but the first three movements which captived me plus a visit to the half forgotte= n and rather battered pipe organ in the neighbouring parish San Jos=E9, cho= sen as a prospective practice instrument. The logo on the console which said "Aristide Cavaille-Coll =E0 Paris" hadn't the slightest significance neit= her for my father nor for me at this time. Daddy rather complained about the heavy action, the wornout pedals and the endless drawknob ways. But even = to my layman's eye its astounding sturdy construction and terrific sound, specially the Hautbois 8' in the Swell, called to my attention immediatel= y. The parish of San Jose didn't allow dayly practice on the organ, however. Incidentally soon afterwards my Junior-High-girlfriend gave me the pass, = and six weeks later the summer vacation begun- in that time it lasted for thr= ee months- what to do to cure a wounded heart and bridge over this endless i= dle time? Answer was very simple, at least for me: Build an organ to get a practice instrument! And of course it had to sound like the organ in San Jose!! At age 14 it seems that nothing stops you from achieving a dream. The ungrateful girlfriend soon was forgotten when I made inventory of my tool= s: a hacksaw, a hammer, a screwdriver, a lineman's plier and a hobby welder; and the materials: Two fruit boxes, three old plywood boards, half a doze= n lattices, a battered 'Mecano-Experiment Box' and several yards of used cable. When I started to install my workshop in a corner of my bedroom, trouble showed up almost immediately: "If you mess up the house you'll ha= ve to clean it" my mom said; and "If you damage something or blow a fuse I'l= l blow your head in change" my father said. After some diplomatic sessions = I agreed to saw and prepare the wood in the garden and use the bedroom only for storage and assembly purposes. July to September is rain season in Caracas however, and everybody who stayed in the tropics, specially the caribbean area, knows what this mean= s: dayly cataracts from heaven for two hours or so; mostly in the afternoon.= To delay my Opus 01 for this?- no way Sir, and soon enough I was gayly sawin= g and sanding the wood planks in my bedroom when mom and daddy were out at work, meanwhile cataracts fell from heaven... (to be ctd) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: top flues in reed rank From: "Mark Nelson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:16:18 -0400 At C. B. Fisk, 8' reeds routinely ascend to f3 (#54) based upon solo Trumpet or Hautbois Franck usage. 16' reeds go to the top. 4' Clarions sometimes break back to 8' somewhere in the above the Pedal compass or an octave higher. Occasionally in really large organs the Clarion will go up = to c3 or so, with harmonic trebles. Flue trebles are always single pipes, = usually slotted and sometimes with skived upper lips. We have not used tierce or nazard ranks in trebles in the 25 years I've been here, perhaps we've tried it in the past, but I've never seen it. Most older Fisk = organs (from the 60's) have 8' reeds going up to c3 (49). Someone mentioned that we have done this, but the only time I've seen this = is at St. Paul's Cathedral, Boston, in the front Andover organ, from the early 80's(?). Mark Nelson www.cbfisk.com