PipeChat Digest #3990 - Friday, September 19, 2003
 
Re: stop controls
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Mark's divorce gospel
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: stop controls
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
RE: stop controls
  by "Steve Gilson" <sgilson@sympatico.ca>
Hymn Registration
  by "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com>
Re: PLAYing Music
  by "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net>
Re: Libel, slander, and being an adult
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: Hymn Registration
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
RE: stop controls
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Serious misrepresentation
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: stop controls
  by <FUMCBA@aol.com>
Re: Serious misrepresentation
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: expense of pipe organs
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Musical Standards
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Priced by Rank
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: stop controls From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:36:58 EDT   In a message dated 9/18/2003 8:27:25 PM Central Daylight Time, runyonr@muohio.edu writes: Draw knobs are a much more satisfying esthetic pleasure for the player. I =   recall reading that Edwin Lemare always carefully polished his draw knobs = before a recital. Not sure why. Maybe he polished his draw knobs out of pride and respect for the = instrument, like firefighters polish their trucks. It could also have something to do =   with the sweat and dirt that accumulates on them, which can become = annoying. Maybe doing it before recitals was a way to insure that it got done.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Mark's divorce gospel From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:53:20 EDT   In a message dated 9/18/2003 8:30:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobelms@westnet.com.au writes:   > Sorry man (er ... person), the politically correct no longer allow > the use of that word "man" in church music. >   thus the reason to be sure to include it....it is divorce where the words woman AND man come up often.....<G>   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: stop controls From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:00:52 EDT   Hi all----------   Prefer drawknobs but for reasons only suitable to another more specific = list.   I get used to whatever I have except for the toasters that have the = tab/knob that goes on and off in both directions. So in once is on and in once = again is off. You go to turn off a stop and accidentally turn on another.   Now I truly believe I am capable of selling a furnace to the devil it(him)self, but I cant figure out how that way is any good at all.   Grew up with tablets on each side and soon knew where the choruses were anyway for easy adding. Oh wait, it was orchestral from the 30's so = mostly you added 8's in the order they were on the rail. Never mind.   This is a great thread.   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: RE: stop controls From: "Steve Gilson" <sgilson@sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:02:02 -0400   Hi all,   I, like Glenda, prefer drawknobs because that is what I first played on. I now have a 2/29 with rockers, and it took some getting used to. My = thoughts on advantages and disadvantages...   - As someone else mentioned, pulling two or three draws at a time on a = well laid out stop jambs is easier - I find it easier to "draw in rhythm" rather than "stab in time". The motion of reaching across to "the other cheek" and drawing a stop has a certain grace of movement... - If you don't have a divisional cancel (and I wish we all did!) its sometimes easier to "slap off" a bunch of tilting tabs in an emergency   A cross between theatre style colored tabs and some other's I've seen is something Austin (and maybe others) do, put the lettering on the reeds in red...the only problem with the older Austin consoles is that the = divisional cancel is this little unobtrusive bar above the tabs, painted black like = the rest of the console, and you can easily hit it without wanting to. (Trust me, on the last page of Vidor's 6th you cancel all of the great instead of hitting the Gt-Gt16 is no fun!)   Just my 3.5 cents Canadian worth...     Steve      
(back) Subject: Hymn Registration From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:32:42 -0500   Having played various organs throughout the years, I like to sit down and hit the first general piston to see what it does.   I usually get a myriad of great, swell, choir and pedal pistons with couplers. Which brings me to my question:   How do you set up your general pistons from left to right or from 1 to ? = or whatever your arrangement is.   How do you register for everyday hymn playing? Do you have special = settings for certain hymns?. Do you have a registration that causes great emotion = and pride whenever you use it? Do you change setting in mid verse or between verses? Which hymn in your church gets everyone practically on their feet when you play it? I would also like for you to include your denomination when you respond if its not obvious.   Mike Franch in Madison, WI   _________________________________________________________________ Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. https://broadband.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Re: PLAYing Music From: "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:58:36 -0400   Ron wrote: <<There are people who claim high standards, play concert grade music for services, which is fine by the way, but over the heads of the congregation.>>   This really depends upon the congregation and a blanket statement gives questionable advice. I've been playing in a Southern Baptist Church for the past year, and am the first professional organist they've had in about ten years. Many people have come up to me and said, "I didn't realize = that classical music was so beautiful." I constantly get requests for = concert pieces of organ music, ranging from the big preludes and fugues of Bach = and his pals, to the big French toccatas, and also some of the "lesser = staples" such as Boellmann and other romantics. They love Rheinberger sonatas! I even got compliments when I played Charles Callahan's improvisations on = Ave Maris Stella and Ave Maria (for Mother's Day, of course!). Some of the older folks have even come up and asked if I would do more improvisations between stanzas of hymns. Unfortunately, I can't do these because we have = a song leader who wants everything written out or not more than 8 to 12 measures!   I also play duets without fine pianist at least once a month. It's great fun and she is a very responsive player. We have great fun on the hymns, = as well.   I don't think people pay rigid attention to the music played or try to analyse it for musical or theological continuity. I have had people request that I NOT play "familiar tunes" during communion because it disturbs their thoughts by "inserting" a text.   And I STILL don't play chorale preludes; the pieces with the piano are outright hymn arrangements. ;-)   And.... I don't think changing the "name" of what we do will make a difference... Play, Perform, key-pummeling. It reminds me of our "neighborhood association" changing the name of the subdivision after the drug businesses were run out to give us a "new image." OK.... we have a new sign at the entrance but Pizza Hut STILL won't deliver!!!! What's = in a name? Duh... LETTERS! ; -)   Scritchies and Haruffarrroooo-bow-ha-wow...   Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at HowlingAcres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 Help Some Animals Free: http://tinyurl.com/2j5i and http://pets.care2.com/welcome?w=3D308025421 Get paid to shop cheap: http://bdawg.freestoreclub.com/ and http://www.smartmall.biz?717886      
(back) Subject: Re: Libel, slander, and being an adult From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:09:13 -0400     > I never thought of these, Seb. Do you think this method will work also > for obtaining an appointment to the judiciary? > > Glenda Sutton > gksjd85@direcway.com > (running for cemetery trustee in the next election)   Well that depends on how many votes you get from the "residents". Of course they will take most elections lying down and it's hard to get = them out to vote.   Ok I know that's an old chestnut!     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 01-Sep-03    
(back) Subject: RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:15:42 -0400   Dennis,   In the United Methodist Denomination (in which I work) there are so many chekcs and balances that the pastor is hardly head of a corporation and th= e amount of power he has is limited to far less that that of a corporation head=2E All the big business and money deicisions are made by the board o= f trustees NOT the pastor=2E The chair of the trustees and several other people must sign any legal document, NOT just the pastor I don't know wha= t denomination you are in, but the pastor just doesn't have that kind of power in this one=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: FPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNN Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:44:39 -0700 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: RE: Clergy pay vs=2E Musician pay (was enough is enough)     >My point is that I have every bit as many responsibilities as the pastor >being the full-time director of music=2E   I respectfully disagree with you there, on two points:   From the temporal side:   The pastor is literally a head of a corporation=2E In most states, indivi= dual congregations are viewed as corporations under state laws, and the pastor = is the chief executive officer of that congregation=2E He has legal responsibilites as would any CEO=2E He can be called on to sign legal documents, and if those documents are wrong, may be one who "pays the price"=2E As CEO, he is responsible to the stockholders, (the parishoners= ) for the temporal affairs of the congregation -- that's money matters=2E T= here have been many pastors who have lost their jobs and maybe even careers ove= r the financial malfeasencses of a congregation=2E   From the spiritual side:   The pastor is the one God holds accountable for the souls of that congregation=2E No matter how good the parish musician is, he/she will no= t have to give an account to God for the spiritual wellbeing of the congregation=2E Yes, I know no one goes out whistling the sermon, but by = the same token, they don't risk damnation for trying to live a non-scriptural postlude=2E   D     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:18:33 EDT   It depends how many generals you have at your disposal-I am fortunate to = have 12 generals, the whole assortment of divisionals, and 99 levels-but-on = memory level 1, I have a diapason crescendo-starting at 8', then add 4, then 2, = then swell mix, then ped 16' reed. then great mix and pedal reed 8, then 16's, then ped 32, then choir reeds, then swell reeds. Also, I always have the = big solo horn ready to blow on the choir, first at 8, then 8 and 4, then 16, = 8, and 4! Look out! My 12th general is celestes-It's always good to have a huge =   contrast ready if needed. I think it is ESSENTIAL to have a big plenum = sound with pedal reeds ready to go at the touch of a button, the same goes for a = quiet celestes/fonds piston.   Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: RE: stop controls From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:31:26 -0500   > Hi list, I have an idea for a new thread. What are your preferences for > stop controls and why? Draw knobs, tabs, or rockers? Gary   I don't have a preference for anything as long as they work. Like others have said, I've found advantages/disadvantages in each. For starters, I learned to play the church organ on a Schlicker console, with rocker tablets. Easy to get to, no stretching, etc. My next position was on a Wicks, with finger tabs. Didn't care for those as much, but again, as = long as they worked, no complaints. Then I played on a Kilgen console with finger tabs, which I had replaced with a new console by Robert G. Dial of Springfield IL. I had the closest I could get to Schlicker-style rockers put in. We discussed refurbishing a 3-manual drawknob moller, but the = cost of doing that equated the cost of a new custom-built 2-manual, since there was no way to really use the 3rd manual without adding pipes or digital ranks (for that cost). Currently, I play on a "3" manual Zimmer with drawknobs. I enjoy having the knobs, but for no real reason other than = it's different. The only disadvantage I've found is if I have to draw a pedal stop and can only use my right hand, or if I need to draw a Great stop and can only do it with my left. (The Great takes up the whole right = jamb...all 7 of them.) The 3rd manual currently does nothing (top one).   The only thing I've enjoyed once, but wouldn't want every week, is a = totally mechanical stop action with no C/A to assist with some of the fast stuff. = I like the modern composers, and sometimes it's hard to do...not impossible..just harder. Totally-mechanical instruments are fun...especially when you couple the swell to the Great and the keys play "by themselves." :)   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: Serious misrepresentation From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:23:14 -0400   Right on Sebastian! I have been posting in favor of pipes and it seems that everyone is panning me and trying to pump up electric imitations=2E = I'm glad there is someone out there on my side=2E The person who made comment= s about the cost of the pipes at St=2E Agnes didn't even take into account t= he possibility of getting used ranks to augment the organ instead of digital imitation=2E This would be much cheaper and would not fit his price quote = at all=2E =20   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: JJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDRE Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:54:08 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Serious misrepresentation     Ladies and Gentlemen: Do NOT post messages with items such as "okay, dudes, 50 ranks at 20,000=20 per rank, that's a million dollar pipe organ!" Just stop it=2E It is wrong, it is misleading, and it may be the reason YOUR church=20=   doesn't even consider a real pipe organ in the future=2E The organ imitation industry doesn't NEED to create bad publicity for the=20 pipe organ, with all these apparent organ company CFOs pre-quoting pipe organ=20 prices to the world that are so overinflated and damaging to the field=2E We've=20 constantly been assaulted on these internet chatlists with that mythical=20=   "thirty-grand-per-rank" organ company, and it's got to stop -- unless you have=20 access to their financial records and are willing to back up what you say=2E=   If you actually PAID thirty thousand dollars per rank (is that for a 32'=20 Open Wood or a 1' Sifflote?) something is catastrophically wrong with the=20=   picture=2E That is VERY different from truthful experiences, or postings such as=20=   "after evaluating three bids, our church raised 87,000 dollars toward the 122,000=20 we needed for the project=2E" Or, "the builder quoted us $7,340 for the ne= w=20 rank of pipes, racking, installation, voicing, and tonal finishing, so we have=20 our work cut out for us, but I really want that stop=2E" Rumors are as destructive to pipe organs as they are to lives and careers=2E   Sebastian M=2E Gluck New York City "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: stop controls From: <FUMCBA@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:33:45 EDT   In a message dated 9/18/2003 10:22:36 PM Central Daylight Time, reedstop@charter.net writes:   > >Hi list, I have an idea for a new thread. What are your preferences = for > >stop controls and why? Draw knobs, tabs, or rockers? Gary >   I don't know if you would necessarily have a preference for whatever was = on the first organ you regularly played... the one I learned on had drawbars!   But, like another whose post I read, I have no firm preference, as I = usually set up the pistons and use them almost exclusively, whether I am playing = in church (Rodgers with drawknobs) or on the theatre organ (Robert Morton = with colored tabs). Or even the Kimball Camelot I have at home...   -Bill Rowland Broken Arrow, OK    
(back) Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:46:57 -0400   That's not even close to what I have heard Dale=2E I hear the average is $12,000-$15,000 a rank=2E An en chamade will run a little higher, about $20,000 from what I've heard=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: EMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZU Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:18:34 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation     In a message dated 9/18/2003 9:32:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 effarbee@verizon=2Enet writes:   > with that mythical "thirty-grand-per-rank" organ company, > >and it's got to stop=2E=2E=2E >=20   I always understood this to be an average after all moneys totaled and the= n=20 divided by rank=2E   a Sifflote 1 would certainly cost less than a 32 anything=2E   Am I correct in guessing the console remains one of the most costly items?=     thanks   dale in Florida     -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:58:48 -0400   Alan,   "does it all" could also be interpreted as jack of all trades and master o= f none=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: Alan Freed acfreed0904@earthlink=2Enet Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:10:18 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs     On 9/18/03 12:10 PM, "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter=2Enet> wrote:   > Wicks is one of the few shops that "does it all=2E" They make everythin= g single > component (except for the combination action?)=2E=2E=2Ethe Direct-Electr= ic (I'm sure > there's a symbol needed here=2E=2E"R", or "TM") action, all of the casew= ork, and > the pipes themselves=2E I would DEFINITELY talk with this company when = the day > comes to expand our organ=2E=2E=2E   Jeff, I've heard two descriptions of "doing it all=2E" Or three, if you w= ish=2E   (1) Buy pipes (etc=2E) made by somebody else=2E (That doesn't count, of course=2E)   (2) Maintain a warehouse of beautiful wood, curing slowly, even over some years, so that, when you need to build a 16' wood, you select carefully fr= om properly aged wood, and build them pipes=2E (Fritts and Pasi were mention= ed, but I cannot verify that at ALL=2E)   (3) Own and maintain several mountainsides of carefully tended timber (trees), which will be cut at the right time, sawn, and placed in that (temperature- and humidity-controlled) warehouse to cure for decades, and which will be turned into wood pipes as needed=2E Metal pipes, of course,= are poured on that canvas-covered table, right there in their own shop=2E Bot= h Pasi and Taylor/Boody were mentioned, but again, I can't verify or even hi= nt that that is the case=2E   So, I think, "does it all" might have different meanings=2E Use the phras= e carefully=2E =20   Alan       "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Musical Standards From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:44:19 EDT   In a message dated 9/18/2003 9:59:30 PM Central Daylight Time, cremona@cervo.net writes: Ron wrote: <<There are people who claim high standards, play concert grade music for services, which is fine by the way, but over the heads of the congregation.>> I think that the above statement requires lots of thought. There is a difference between "playing over the heads", and raising the musical = standard. To not play over the heads of people, in many congregations, means that we = would have to play classic rock songs, or Pachelbel's Canon in D for the prelude =   every week-and that's just not acceptable. The only reason that people = would feel like they were being treated in a condescending manner, is because of = their jaded, and often stereotypical views of the organ, and classical music, as =   being "dark, funeral related, oppressive, boring, and depressing". It is = our duty as musicians to change these views. Someone once said, "Bach is so depressing"-so I sat down, played the F major toccata, and said, "was that = depressing too?" I'm sure you've all been asked to play"Phantom of the Opera, AKA = Toccata and Fugue", meaning the Toccata in d-it gets old....One of my favorite and =   mildly comical responses is, "which one? Bach wrote many toccatas and = fugues." I think I will learn the Dorian just to throw people for loop :), and hope =   that they will really find a new favorite piece, and deeper appreciation = for Bach! All silliness aside, it really is our universal responsibility as = musicians to maintain a high standard in a friendly way. A way that makes our congregations yearn for organ music every week. Imagine if teachers = stopped teaching art, history, English Lit, and Law in school. We would be in big trouble. = We owe it to MUSIC and its great composers, whose work survives for hundreds = of years because of US. MTV, VH1, moronic Sunday School songs, and radio certainly aren't helping the cause-yet they go unchekced by parents, holy = people, and educational institutions.   I know that this will stir up debate-so allow me to say this: What I said =   above does not mean that we should play Reger and Messiaen every week. It = means that as good musicians, we need to find a compromise between pleasing the crowd (with tasteful favs.), and introducing more advanced, less known (by = common standards) literature.   Gregory    
(back) Subject: Priced by Rank From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:01:47 EDT   I am NO expert in organbuilding, but I feel like pricing an instrument in = a per rank manner can be misleading and detrimental. It is just a = convenient way to do it, and it makes plenty of sense, for organists who know what goes = into building an instrument. But perhaps a lower per rank cost, and documented =   costs for keyboards, action, parts, console, labor, case etc...would give perspective buyers the justification needed to make such an investment. Gregory