PipeChat Digest #3991 - Friday, September 19, 2003
 
Re: Hymn Registration
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Serious misrepresentation
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re:Hymn Registration--long
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
RE: Musical Standards
  by "Mari" <mreive@tampabay.rr.com>
Re: Serious misrepresentation
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Stop Controls
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by <MFoxy9795@aol.com>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by <MFoxy9795@aol.com>
RE: Memories of a junior organ builder 01
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net>
Re: Stop Controls!
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Atlantic City
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
PLAYing Music
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Libel, slander, and being an adult
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Hymn Registration
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Re: Hymn Registration
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:58:20 EDT   Soft to loud left to right with a solo setting on the last piston.     The correct registration is different on every hymn every time....that is = why service playing is so much fun!   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:03:49 EDT   In a message dated 9/18/2003 11:47:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ameagher@stny.rr.com writes:   > That's not even close to what I have heard Dale. I hear the average is > $12,000-$15,000 a rank.   I of course was only quoting someone else's 30000.   The average quoted in the toaster world is 15000 versus whatever they are selling.   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:09:06 EDT   In a message dated 9/18/2003 11:16:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ameagher@stny.rr.com writes:   > in, but the pastor just doesn't have that kind of > power in this one. > >   Being a member of UMC, being a seminary trained (but not graduated) Methodist, yea verily I say unto you:   If the pastor wants it the pastor gets unless the pastor is so disliked = that the SPR has voted for removal.   The pastor may not sign everything and all that, but it is the pastor's place. Oh yes, I live in a fire at will state and the DS's remind pastors = of that at EVERY ANNUAL conference and Annual CHARGE conference...music person = beware.   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re:Hymn Registration--long From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:26:18 EDT   At church, I've got my pistons set as follows: Gen. 1 Trumpet (chamade) solo with foundations and soft reeds and Sw. = mixture. Gens. 2-5 strings building from #2 (Choir Erzahler and 4' Sw. Flute solo) = to #5 (full slush at 16, 8, 4 with 32' in the pedal) Gen. 6-10 build from Foundations 8, 4 to full organ   As for divisionals, I usually have them set up to build from softest to loudest.   When playing hymns, I use the divisional pistons throughout the hymn to = color the hymn texts as I'm playing. I usually start a verse on a much = different registration than what I finish with. Oftentimes, we will do part of a = verse a cappella, and then I come crashing in mid way through the verse. = Sometimes, I will drop out for a few bars and discreetly slip in underneath and keep building. The text of the hymn is my guide....I am there to lead the conrgegation, but I also want to be sensitive to the mood/text of the = hymn. If a verse is saying something about being quiet before God, I'm not going to be using = full swell and choir reeds. And for my trashy trick, I use the Zimbelstern = when mention is made of angels, the Holy Spirit descending, etc; and on the = hymn "And Can It Be," I use the zimbelstern for a few measures when the text = says "my chains fell off, my heart was free"--it comes on in one measure and I pop = it right back off in the next. Trashy, but it works! lol   In my work as a funeral director, I routinely get to hear organists lead hymns. It is clear why some churches say that hymns are boring and that = they want to go contemporary. Miss Molly Mae waddles up to the organ (or digital instrument replicating = a pipe organ) turns it on, (often with the stops drawn from the last time = she played) and starts to play a prelude of hymns right from the hymnal--not = any kind of arrangement or improvisation. I walk the family in with the registration not yet changed, we sing a hymn =   (still with no registration change) and there is a solo (yep, you guessed = it, no stop change yet.) No mind you, our beloved organist of 64 years was = leading the music with the 16' Great Bourdon, 2' Principal and Swell Strings and MUTATIONS(!!!) coupled to the great. Don't worry about what she's got in = the pedal, because it's only used on the final note of the hymn. You may = laugh and say I exaggerate, but I've seen similar things on more than one occasion.   In the town where I work, the Methodist church has a very fine (but VERY loud) 2 man. 44 rank Casavant. The organist plays all hymns with the = following registration. Ped. 16-8 foundations, GT-16' Bourdon, 4' Octave, 2' = Octave, SW-8Flute, 8' String, 4' Principal, coupled to Gt. In her defense, the = organ is very loud (almost painfully so), but the registration is muddy and screechy all at the same time. The congregation wonders why they can't sing to it. The 8' foundation is = almost inaudible, because she keeps the swell box shut and doesn't use the 8' Principal. = Verse 1 is on the Gt., Verse 2, she hops up to the Swell (box shut), Verse 3, she opens up the Swell box a little, Verse 4 back to the Great. Every hymn is = played this way. Now don't get me started on the fact that the rhythm is = different on each verse, and she usually anticipates the downbeat so you might be holding a whole note, but she's jumped you by 1/2 a beat. And don't even = think of asking her to modulate or do an interlude--it's not going to happen!   I've played some services there when she was unable to do so, and I used a =   wide variety of registrations, used some of the reeds (box shut, of = course), and did free harmonies on the final stanzas, soloed out melodies, etc. The congregation sang like the Mo Tab Choir.   Folks, organists turn people off from hymn singing because of the boring = or incompetent way many organists play hymns. Most important are strong and supportive registrations that are clear to the congregations (16' and 2' = by itself doesn't make a clear line of pitch--there has to be some 8 and 4 tone with =   them). Strong rhythmic pulse is essential to keep the hymn alive. Change = the harmonies once in a while on a final stanza. There are hundreds of free harmonization books on the market--some even have written out interludes, = too. Make it imaginative, make it exciting. Don't be locked in to the 4 notes on the = hymn page. Throw in some passing tones, give the music some movement. There is =   not a set of rules written in stone that an organist must follow. Play it = like you mean it, play it like you would want to sing along, play according to = the hymn text. Hymns can be so much fun to play and sing and people don't = realize how much truth is contained in the text. Most people are turned off to = hymns because they are made to think they are boring by poor hymn playing by the =   organist. In my job, I've heard musicians at some of the large churches = in Charlotte, NC, and I've heard organists in the country of South Carolina. = A good number of these people all went to the school of boring and poor hymn = playing. It's not just localized to the Southeast--I've got family in Connecticut, =   and I've heard the same kind of things there. At my family's church, one = of the organists (now since retired) thought that the pistons on the new organ = came pre-set from the factory. She led hymn singing from the test patterns of = the combination action! Now that was always an aural experience--and usually = not a pleasant one.   We have the power to make hymns exciting or deathly boring. Don't kill = the hymns and singing--that's when people get the "contemporary music is so = much more exciting" bug. Be creative. Practice the hymns before you get to church on Sunday = morning. Think about registration possibilities. Bottom line, make it an exciting worship experience. Exciting doesn't have to be loud and flashy, it can = also be soft and reflective, but it takes work and practice and imagination.   Monty Bennett Friendship Missionary Baptist Church Charlotte, NC    
(back) Subject: RE: Musical Standards From: "Mari" <mreive@tampabay.rr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:38:17 -0400   Well said, Greg! Mari -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Gfc234@aol.com Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 3:44 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Musical Standards     In a message dated 9/18/2003 9:59:30 PM Central Daylight Time, cremona@cervo.net writes: Ron wrote: <<There are people who claim high standards, play concert grade music for services, which is fine by the way, but over = the heads of the congregation.>> I think that the above statement requires lots of thought. There is a difference between "playing over the heads", and raising the musical standard. To not play over the heads of people, in many congregations, means that we would have to play classic rock songs, or Pachelbel's Canon = in D for the prelude every week-and that's just not acceptable. The only reason that people would feel like they were being treated in a condescending manner, is because of their jaded, and often stereotypical views of the organ, and classical music, as being "dark, funeral related, oppressive, boring, and depressing". It is our duty as musicians to = change these views. Someone once said, "Bach is so depressing"-so I sat down, played the F major toccata, and said, "was that depressing too?" I'm sure you've all been asked to play"Phantom of the Opera, AKA Toccata and = Fugue", meaning the Toccata in d-it gets old....One of my favorite and mildly comical responses is, "which one? Bach wrote many toccatas and fugues." I think I will learn the Dorian just to throw people for loop :), and hope that they will really find a new favorite piece, and deeper appreciation = for Bach! All silliness aside, it really is our universal responsibility as musicians to maintain a high standard in a friendly way. A way that makes our congregations yearn for organ music every week. Imagine if teachers stopped teaching art, history, English Lit, and Law in school. We would = be in big trouble. We owe it to MUSIC and its great composers, whose work survives for hundreds of years because of US. MTV, VH1, moronic Sunday School songs, and radio certainly aren't helping the cause-yet they go unchekced by parents, holy people, and educational institutions.   I know that this will stir up debate-so allow me to say this: What I = said above does not mean that we should play Reger and Messiaen every week. It means that as good musicians, we need to find a compromise between = pleasing the crowd (with tasteful favs.), and introducing more advanced, less known (by common standards) literature.   Gregory    
(back) Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:40:42 EDT   >That's not even close to what I have heard Dale. I hear the average is >$12,000-$15,000 a rank. An en chamade will run a little higher, about >$20,000 from what I've heard. > >Andrew   Having just been through the design and contract phase of a large new instrument, I feel that as the organist I can offer some insight here. = Our builder told me from the start what a ballpark average cost per rank was, but was = very quick to tell me that the average rank price was a very bad way to figure cost. The bottom octave of a 16' stop often costs as much as a complete = 8' rank. Depending on the material the pipe is made out of, the cost can vary considerably. Even two stops of similar character from different = divisions will vary--example, our 8' Great Principal will be a very high tin content, = while the 8' Principal in the Grand Choeur will have a low tin content. Different = metals =3D different price. Factor in that a rank might be extended, or partial compass, and the cost changes again. Our builder would not give a qute on = the price until the specification was finalized so he could quote exact figures. I specified some unique things and the size of the room dicatated some other = unique things--I specified wood resonators on one of the 16' pedal reeds, a very large scale Principal chorus on the Grand Choeur, beefy scales on all = ranks, and a facade that will have full length 32' in it. Talk about driving the = cost up! There's no way to average out the cost of an organ that has seven 32' =   stops, a forest of 16's and large scales on everything else. The 16' Open = Wood and the 1' Fife aren't comparable in any way, shape or form. It's not fair to =   average an instrument like that. It might be fairer to average the price = on a 3 rank unit organ where all the stops are similar--8' Principal, 8' Flute, = 8' Sting (unified to heaven and back!), but when you get to a large pipe = organ, with casework, polished tin facade pipes, a console with hand carvings and =   inlays, there are just too many variables to give a fair average price per = rank quote.   Monty Bennett Friendship Missionary Baptist Church Charlotte, NC    
(back) Subject: Re: Stop Controls From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:48:07 EDT   I have played stop tab, rocker tab, drawknob, light up push-button and drawbar organs. I've played organs with moving stop controls and light up = stop controls. My favorite is either moveable stop knobs or moving rocker tabs = on side jambs (in the European fashion). On a small organ, stop tabs are ok, but = I hate playing large stop tab consoles, such as Austin builds. Drawknobs = just look more impressive than tabs. To me tabs give the aura of being cheap. = Not to bash Austin, but I hate the divisional cancels over a group of stop tabs...I've played them too many times and reached up for a stop and = brushed the cancel and had to slam open the crescendo pedal to cover the fact that I = suddenly had no sound. I find light up controls to be cheap--whether they be = drawknob, rocker tab, or the light up square push buttons that Petty-Madden and Steiner-Reck (and I'm sure many others) use. I want to know that when I = pull a knob or push a tablet that the stop is on. There's something comfortable about =   seeing stops physically move.   Just my thoughts....   Monty Bennett    
(back) Subject: RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:24:25 +0800   NOr in my denomination. The Church Council rules the roost and the pastor is their employee. he certanly has no power to sack anyone. Bob Elms.   ---- Original Message ---- From: ameagher@stny.rr.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: RE: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:15:42 -0400   >Dennis, > >In the United Methodist Denomination (in which I work) there are so >many >chekcs and balances that the pastor is hardly head of a corporation >and the >amount of power he has is limited to far less that that of a >corporation >head. All the big business and money deicisions are made by the >board of >trustees NOT the pastor. The chair of the trustees and several other >people must sign any legal document, NOT just the pastor I don't >know what >denomination you are in, but the pastor just doesn't have that kind >of >power in this one. > >Andrew > >>    
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:55:51 -0400   >Dennis, > >In the United Methodist Denomination (in which I work) there are so >many >chekcs and balances that the pastor is hardly head of a corporation >and the >amount of power he has is limited to far less that that of a >corporation >head. All the big business and money deicisions are made by the >board of >trustees NOT the pastor. The chair of the trustees and several other >people must sign any legal document, NOT just the pastor I don't >know what >denomination you are in, but the pastor just doesn't have that kind >of >power in this one. > >Andrew > In the Episcopal Church, the Rector DOES have that kind of power.   Merry Foxworth   =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:-   An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632).   Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:58:49 -0400   In a message dated 9/19/2003 7:09:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Keys4bach = writes:   > Being a member of UMC, being a seminary trained (but not graduated) = Methodist, yea verily I say unto you: > > If the pastor wants it the pastor gets unless the pastor is so disliked = that the SPR has voted for removal. > > The pastor may not sign everything and all that, but it is the pastor's = place. Oh yes, I live in a fire at will state and the DS's remind pastors = of that at EVERY ANNUAL conference > and Annual CHARGE conference...music person beware. > > dale in Florida   Pastors in the United Methodist Church have less power simply because of = the itinerant ministry. They are moved around every few years.   Merry Foxworth   =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:-   An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632).   Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/  
(back) Subject: RE: Memories of a junior organ builder 01 From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agunther@cantv.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:42:12 -0400   Andres Gunther agunther@cantv.net   John is right in his theory (although well, hm... I do not consider mysel= f "eminent" in any way - just a simple tech; restorer by force :). But this particular organ was inspiring for me and is oddly related to my modest career in more ways.   I was baptized in San Jose- the Baptize Chapel is just under the choir. T= he meeting with the organ was by accident. Father had to play a wedding ther= e. The organ hadn't been used for many years; to start it was quite an affai= r, I was told. Mom said "Andres must see this" and took me to the church aft= er school. I was hooked on immediately despite daddy's nasty comments about "dis old Cudgel Box with its stonehard action" (drawknobs on C-Cs have qu= ite a long draw-way, and San Jose has an *extremely* hard action indeed).   Instinctively I knew that the works of Cesar Franck and Charles Marie Widor's 5th had to sound better on this instrument than on any other orga= n. From all our 6 C-C organs this one has the best Hautbois 8' in my opinion. In 1978 I met the Castellanos family. Mtr. Evencio Castellanos had made french style "auditions" in San Jose for many years. Pablo, his son, beca= me my organ instructor. They told me all about the unique relationship betwe= en Msr. Aristide and Cesar Franck & Ch.M. Widor...   The rest is known history; the instrument was declared heritage etc etc..= .. I gave my first orgab recital there (I am out of the recitals since fall 20= 00 however). Odd enough I never became organist of San Jose. The parish is a good frie= nd and all- but he never wanted to hire me alledging that the parish couldn'= t afford an organist.   Cheers Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.   ----- Original Message ----- From: John L. Speller <jlspeller@mindspring.com> SNIP > > The logo on the console which said > > "Aristide Cavaille-Coll =E0 Paris" hadn't the slightest significance neither > > for my father nor for me at this time. > > It is interesting that you should say this, since it is my theory that many > people who later go on to be eminent organists or organbuilders have usually > grown up in a church which has an outstanding pipe organ. A while back= I > reviewed a book on the fine Pennsylvania organbuilder Charles Durner an= d his > instruments for the OHS journal, "The Tracker". The book among other things > charted organists who had grown up with Durner organs, and it is remarkable > how many of them went on to achieve eminence in their profession, even when > they came from fairly obscure churches. It seems that really good orga= ns > have the ability to inspire people. > > John Speller              
(back) Subject: Re: Stop Controls! From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:12:58 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   THE most elegant and comfortable drawstops have to be those lovely Harrison & Harrison ones which radiate on a slightly arced stop-jamb as at the Royal Festival Hall in London, and at Coventry Cathedral here in the UK.   I shall never know why this example of superb ergonomics didn't catch on world-wide.   I also quite liked the Compton luminous stops.....round, and in the right places on a stop-jamb, but with just a push on/off action and a small light bulb. They were fine until the bulb blew on the Orchestral Trumpet at Hull City Hall!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       --- Bigaquarium <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> wrote: > >I have an idea for a new thread. What are your > preferences for stop > controls and why?     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:27:00 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   I hate discussing size for the sake of it.   However, the Atlantic City Midmer-Losh is SO enormous and SO musically excessive, it is difficult to be neutral about it.   I once heard a recording (from 78) of this instrument, and could not detect anything musical about it, but old recordings are perhaps misleading.   Maybe those who know this instrument might like to explain the thinking behind it because, for the life of me, I cannot.   Indeed, let's throw a musical land-mine!! (Evil grin!)   Could American egos cope with a maximum of 70 stops as a legal requirement? Isn't this big enough for ANYTHING?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK (wearing a tin helmet)         --- "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> wrote: > Bearing in mind the stupendous number of man-hours > that went into the > original construction of this instrument, and the > amount of damage that was > done to it in the recent work on the building, I > regretfully think that a > complete restoration of the Midmer-Losh auditorium > organ is no longer > feasible.   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: PLAYing Music From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:51:09 -0400   > Anyone have a better way to describe PLAYing music?   How about "perform"? I realize that "perform", as applied to church music, is sometimes used in a derogatory sense, or to justify less music, by people who use it to mean that the musicians are not there to lead worship. My response is that, indeed, I am performing; I am giving to the congregation and to God the best of which I am capable at that moment, which is what a performance usually strives to be.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: Libel, slander, and being an adult From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:55:44 -0400   Regarding Sebastian's recommendations for one's resume: I always thought they should be kept to one page. Putting all of that stuff in would run two or three pages, at least, I should think.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: Hymn Registration From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:00:58 -0400   My first organ teacher was Claire Coci. Her policy on setting up pistons, which I've generally followed (pun intended), is to set them up from left to right, since we read that way, in increasing order of volume. In other words, #1 would be celestes or very soft stops and the last would be just short of tutti, assuming that there is a separate tutti piston.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:07:04 -0400   On 9/18/03 10:32 PM, "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> wrote:   Replying on behalf of our organist, whom I am not. The organ and its = specs are at www.stlukesnyc.org   > How do you register for everyday hymn playing?   Terminology does not compute. Even on our little tracker, it's always different.   > Do you have special settings for certain hymns?.   I don't think so (and I do pay attention); we don't repeat hymns very = often.   > Do you have a registration that causes great emotion and pride whenever = you > use it?   It's possible; that's within his head.   > Do you change setting in mid verse or between verses?   Most definitely. Almost always between stanzas (subtly), but now and then within a stanza as well. The text governs.   > Which hymn in your church gets everyone practically on their feet when = you > play it?   A fair number of them. CRUCIFER and VRUECHTEN for sure; but there's = almost no limit to it. LOBET DEN HERRN. The list could go on a long ways. On virtually every hymn there are unpredictable harmonizations, which makes = it constant fun.   Alan Freed At Saint Luke's ELCA (a raving maniac about our organist's sense and abilities)