PipeChat Digest #3992 - Friday, September 19, 2003
 
Re: Hymn Registration
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: Musical standards
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: expense of pipe organs
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Musical Standards
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Hymn Registration
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Atlantic City
  by <OrganMD@aol.com>
RE: Hymn Registration
  by "Mark L. Hopper" <mlhopper@msn.com>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Hymn Registration
  by "Nicholas Good" <nickgood@ix.netcom.com>
RE: Hymn Registration
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Hymn Registration
  by "Stephen Best" <sbest@borg.com>
Re: Hymn Registrations
  by "John & Fran Meyers" <jack-fran1@cox.net>
RE: Atlantic City
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Atlantic City
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Libel, slander, and being an adult
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
Riverside Church - Acoustic
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: Riverside Church - New organ required
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:14:35 -0400   Good question. As obvious as the answer seems to me, it never ceases to amaze me what seemingly random and disorganized combinations I find on the generals when I visit organs other than my own. I have several memory levels. On the first memory level, I have my generals set to a smooth progression from voix celestes and soft 16' pedal on the first to = near-tutti on the last. The two pistons in the middle give me a full plein jeu, and = then the same plus a high cymbale and a pedal reed. The only deviation from this progression is one conveniently located piston that gives me a solo = trompette against a medium plein jeu. These give me just about everything I need = for typical hymnody. With the other memory levels I do whatever the occasion demands - various trumpet tune combinations, solo stops and acc, fonds, fonds/anches, cornet and other mutation combinations, big reeds alone for the occasional Soler fanfare, etc. I invite visitors to use everything, = but ask them not to change the first level.   For hymn playing, I always change registrations between verses, and sometimes during a verse, if the music or the text seem to demand it. In rare cases, I will change registration AND tempo - E.G., Up From the Ground He Arose, in which I play the verse slowly on a soft reg and the refrain at a livelier tempo on a louder reg. On the more triumphant last verse, the verse is loud also. I think shaping registrations to make the hymn progress is more important than the specific registrations you use. Like a good recital program, or like a well shaped phrase, it should go somewhere. For a typical upbeat hymn, I will start with a plein jeu, get softer for the second verse, solo out the melody for another, then progress through the verses to nearly full organ for the last. If there = are (too) many verses, I may get softer and louder more than once before I'm done. Sometimes I turn the tables on the cong and play the last verse softly. Occasionally, I drop out altogether for a middle verse and let = the congregation sing acapella. This requires the cooperation of the choirmaster or confusion ensues. For worn-out warhorses, sometimes I get more creative to avoid boredom. I've been known to imitate bagpipes in Amazing Grace, and all the little old ladies of the church love me for it. For God of Our Fathers, I solo out the fanfares on a big trompette, and that always gets the blood pumping. I am blessed to play for a United Methodist Congregation where everything and anything from Sweelink to Star Wars is permissible and appreciated.   -WG   > "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> asked: > > Having played various organs throughout the years, I like to sit down = and > hit the first general piston to see what it does. > > I usually get a myriad of great, swell, choir and pedal pistons with > couplers. Which brings me to my question: > > How do you set up your general pistons from left to right or from 1 to ? = or > whatever your arrangement is. > > How do you register for everyday hymn playing? Do you have special = settings > for certain hymns?. Do you have a registration that causes great emotion = and > pride whenever you use it? Do you change setting in mid verse or between > verses? Which hymn in your church gets everyone practically on their = feet > when you play it? I would also like for you to include your denomination > when you respond if its not obvious. > > Mike Franch > in Madison, WI    
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:16:32 -0400   On 9/18/03 11:15 PM, "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> wrote:   > All the big business and money deicisions are made by the board of = trustees > NOT the pastor. The chair of the trustees and several other people must = sign > any legal document, NOT just the pastor I don't know what denomination = you > are in, but the pastor just doesn't have that kind of power in this one.   Andrew writes from a UMC position, but I can say that he's describing ELCA Lutheran practice as well. Pastor can ask, beg, whine, pound the table, = but the Church Council decides. (And I'm happy to say that everywhere I've = been in a half century or so, it's all very amicable.)   Alan    
(back) Subject: RE: Musical standards From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:24:29 -0400   Ron Severin writes:   > There are people who claim high standards, play concert grade music = for services, which is fine by the way, but over the heads of the = congregation. I suggest that these try the concert circuit to get a taste of things. Most congregations are looking to their = organist to play worshipful, simple music they can understand, that = touches their soul, and opens it to worship God. Playing the heavy = liturature in the ordinary parish church, may support the ego of the = organist, but turn the congregation off.=20   I agree in part and disagree in part.   What is "concert grade music?" There is indeed organ music composed for = secular concert or recital purposes; and there is no blanket, _a priori_ = case for its use in a church service. Some, however, proves especially = suitable for an occasion (e.g. Samuel Barber's Adagio, which began life = as a string quartet movement, in memory of those who died on 9/11). But = the bulk of extant organ music was conceived for liturgical purposes or = at least is based on themes or ideas from the Bible or hymnody. Should = the fact that much of it is fine enough to be "concert grade" as well = become an argument *against* its continued use in its original home? In = any environment in which the word "tradition" has any meaning at all, = the spiritual testimony of past generations should be of some continuing = interest. If someone implies that what was not too good for churchmen = two hundred years ago is now too good for you or me, don't we have every = right to feel insulted? (I think of the smarmy Rev. Mr. Slope in = _Barchester Towers_, trying to banish the old pensioners from their = stalls in the cathedral on the premise that "the cathedral services are = not the most suitable type for members of that class.")   "Simple music one can understand" is hardly the only kind that touches = the soul or opens it to worship God. Read _The Idea of the Holy_ by = Otto. As well as being immanent and intimate, God is transcendent, = numinous, Other, and mysterious.=20   Last but not least, even if the adult congregants have acquired hopeless = tastes, there are always the children, and they deserve the best. = Furthermore, they prove time and time again that they recognize it and = thrive on it. I love Madeleine L'Engle, who says that she does not = write children's books. The only way any of her books are "children's = books" is the age of the protagonist, and the fact that they deal with = issues that "are too difficult for adults to understand."    
(back) Subject: Re: expense of pipe organs From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:30:28 -0400   On 9/18/03 11:58 PM, "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> wrote:   > "does it all" could also be interpreted as jack of all trades and master = of > none. > Yes indeed, Andrew. And probably often quite justly.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Musical Standards From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:34:20 -0400   On 9/19/03 3:44 AM, "Gfc234@aol.com" <Gfc234@aol.com> wrote:   > It means that as good musicians, we need to find a compromise between = pleasing > the crowd (with tasteful favs.), and introducing more advanced, less = known (by > common standards) literature. > Thank you, Gregory. True balance throughout.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:35:47 -0400   On 9/19/03 6:58 AM, "Keys4bach@aol.com" <Keys4bach@aol.com> wrote:   > The correct registration is different on every hymn every time....that = is why > service playing is so much fun! >   Exactly.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:51:39 EDT   In a message dated 9/19/2003 8:59:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MFoxy9795@aol.com writes:   > Pastors in the United Methodist Church have less power simply because of =   > the itinerant ministry. They are moved around every few years. > >   the moves are getting farther apart and that really doesn't make any difference. The pastor can get what is wanted during the honeymoon period = and if s/he marries and buries em well----s/he will get what they want.   I know from multitude of experiences in various sizes and from both sides.   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:54:30 -0400   On 9/19/03 8:24 AM, "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> wrote:   > The Church Council rules the roost and the pastor is their employee.   Well, in Lutheranism, one exception: liturgy. There, the pastor is absolute boss.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: <OrganMD@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:55:09 EDT   Dear Colin and list .........   In a word, NO!   If you really believe that 70 stops is enough for any and all venues, you need to take a trip to the USA and tour all of the places that own what = you would term excessive instruments. I am not speaking of Atlantic City, or Wanamaker, but other places like the Riverside Church, St. John the = Divine, The Crystal Cathedral, The Mormon Tabernacle, the LDS Conference Center to name a few. = ( the Conference Center is a room that seats 21,000 for church)   I do not believe in large for the sake of large. However large venues = need large instruments.   Just my two cents worth.   Bill Hesterman    
(back) Subject: RE: Hymn Registration From: "Mark L. Hopper" <mlhopper@msn.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:05:45 -0400   Sometimes I find myself being self-conscious about the pistons I = set..."what if someone saw this registration?" My hymn registration is far more unorthodox than my literature.   Two of my unorthodox favorites:   1) For an inner hymn stanza with an introspective text, try coupling every 8' principal, flute, string, and celeste (yes, celeste!) on the organ down to the great and pedal. After playing with the stops that are pulled to = get the muddiest mud out (you might have to add a 4' or to to make things = speak clearly), the result is a warm, fluffy Victorian sound that makes = Anglicans weep with envy! Adding a single 8' reed to this combo give a nice effect, too.   2) For CWM RHONDDA sung to "God of Grace," draw full swell (with some kind of 16' reed sound, even if you have to use a subcoupler) for the "Lo! The hosts of evil 'round us..." stanza. Starting with the box closed, play = the bass note an octave lower & take the top three voices in the right hand. = On the third phrase ("Grant Us Wisdom..."), play a dominant pedalpoint on pedal foundations w/swell coupled & gradually open the full swell. On the last phrase, add the bass line in the pedal. A simple little trick, but = it really highlights the text.   When I'm in a beauty pageant one day, my platform will be "using registration color to highlight hymn texts."   :)   Mark   Mark L. Hopper Associate Minister of Music and Organist The First Baptist Church 205 West Winder Street PO Box 75 Henderson, NC 27536 (O) 252-438-3172 (H) 252-492-6774 (F) 252-438-3710 markhopper@ncol.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:16:02 -0400   on 9/19/03 10:54 AM, Alan Freed at acfreed0904@earthlink.net wrote:   > > Well, in Lutheranism, one exception: liturgy. There, the pastor is > absolute boss.     What do you mean, exactly, Alan? In my ELCA church, if the pastor were to decide to introduce a new liturgical setting (e.g., LBW no. 3, which I = would love to see used) he would risk a congregational rebellion.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: "Nicholas Good" <nickgood@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:12:43 -0500   I play on a 2 manual 31 rank instrument with 10 generals, and 6 divisional pistons for each division   Generals 1 - 5 get progressively louder. I usually kept these fixed from =   Sunday to Sunday, only changing for special needs, and then resetting. The most significant component of each general is how the couplers are utilized, because I will then use divisional pistons to do modifications. 1. Soft flue chorus for choir accomp. 2. For soloing out the hymn tune: mf princ chorus on the great, ff swell registration (cornet or reed), pedal to grt +16' 3. Lots of 8' on both manuals coupled together, with some 4' =   and 2' added for clarity 4. A bright prinicpal registration on both manuals with mixtures. Alternatively sometimes couple the swell 4' 2' principal to = great at 16' and 8'. This is probably my most used registration for hymn playing 5. Like #4 but with 16' pedal reed, and optionally 8' reed =   on the great added.   I change pistons 6 - 10 every sunday, generally use 1 or 2 of them for intonations, introductions etc, and often change these in between hymns, = in order to accomodate my limited number of pistons.   Generally use a different registration on every verse. Sometimes in a ABBA or ABA type of alternation.   This is for a Methodist congregation with about 150 attending each = service.   Nicholas Good , ( a new CAGO this summer )         >How do you set up your general pistons from left to right or from 1 to ? >or whatever your arrangement is. > >How do you register for everyday hymn playing? Do you have special >settings for certain hymns?. Do you have a registration that causes great =   >emotion and pride whenever you use it? Do you change setting in mid verse =   >or between verses? Which hymn in your church gets everyone practically on =   >their feet when you play it? I would also like for you to include your >denomination when you respond if its not obvious. > >Mike Franch >in Madison, WI > >_________________________________________________________________ >Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. >https://broadband.msn.com > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: RE: Hymn Registration From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:33:44 -0400   Walter Greenwood writes:   > it never ceases to amaze me what seemingly random and disorganized = combinations I find on the generals when I visit organs other than my own. =20   I must plead totally guilty. The answer is simply that I rely primarily = on divisional pistons and have not set or used generals for anything = permanent for thirty years. That is not to say I don't use them, but = they are for specific points in voluntaries or accompaniments, after = which the settings are no longer needed. When others are to play the = organ, I would try to inform them that the general pistons are scratch = and available freely for anyone to change, except when a note is posted = otherwise.   I'm thinking of making a partial exception, because the setting of the = Gloria in excelsis we currently sing suggests two registration changes = that are so quick and complete as to require general pistons. But = heavens, for those who keep all their general pistons permanently set in = an exquisite build-up, what do they do for the registration needs and = changes of specific repertoire? The probable answer is they don't.   If I presided over a large organ as Monty Bennett does, then some = permanently set general pistons would be necessary. But essentially, I = take a similar approach to hymn playing as he describes (if not quite so = dynamic: e.g., I don't *usually* end a stanza with a completely = different registration than I began it), including his frequent use of = divisional pistons and hand registration. No way can 6-12 stock = general settings cover all the colors or shadings that sensitivity and = imagination should suggest.      
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: "Stephen Best" <sbest@borg.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:48:38 -0400   I guess it's time to chime on on "random and disorganized combinations." Generals on the instrument I play are never the same from one week to the next. In fact, lacking multiple memories, I often reset the generasl for the second half of the service during the sermon. If anyone visited my church and checked the combinations, who knows what they'd find! The pistons set for the Messiaen "Banquet Celeste," for example, would look incredibly bizarre unless one knew they had been set for that piece. As for hymns -- I find that generic combinations rarely do what I want considering the number of factors involved in evaluating sounds for each hymn. Not only do I find it necessary to take into account both text and music for each hymn and its multiple stanzas, I also consider such things as the varying acoustics of the building, the number of people present for a service, and the strength (or weakness) with which the congregation is singing any given hymn. Sometimes these variables dictate an on-the-spot unanticipated change in registrations -- and no generic generals would do that job.   Steve Best in Utica, NY   Emmons, Paul wrote:   >Walter Greenwood writes: > > > >>it never ceases to amaze me what seemingly random and disorganized = combinations I find on >> >> >the generals when I visit organs other than my own. >      
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registrations From: "John & Fran Meyers" <jack-fran1@cox.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:49:24 -0700   I have 10 general pistons.=20 1. celestes 2. celestes with a few more soft stops 3. cornet solo 4. cromorne solo 5. oboe solo 6. trumpet solo with accompanying principals 7. 8' and 4' 8. 8,4, 2' 9. 8, 4, 2, IV stops 10. 8, 4, 2, IV, reeds I have four memory levels which I use for other specials needs. I = usually reserve Mem 4 for special service music with many different = changes. I then change it for the next Sunday prelude, offering, and = postlude settings. (but try to write it down so I don't forget what I = used for that particular piece). Fran  
(back) Subject: RE: Atlantic City From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:19:13 -0400   Bill Hesterman writes:   > If you really believe that 70 stops is enough for any and all venues, = you need to take a trip to the USA and tour all of the places that own = what you would term excessive instruments. I am not speaking of = Atlantic City, or Wanamaker, but other places like the Riverside Church, = St. John the Divine, The Crystal Cathedral, The Mormon Tabernacle, the = LDS Conference Center to name a few. ( the Conference Center is a room = that seats 21,000 for church)   Perhaps I feel somewhere in between you and Colin.   I agree with Colin that the Atlantic City organ is wildly excessive and = would never propose that such a thing be built again. But it exists, is = unique, and I would hope that preserving it in good working order as = some kind of monument and period piece ought somehow to be within "the = one remaining superpower's" capabilities. But the recent experience of = this instrument shows that most Americans are in total agreement with = Colin. He can doubtless take comfort from that fact. :-/   Although Britain does not have the very largest organs in the world, she = has plenty that are more than 70 stops. I would certainly not object = that the organs of Liverpool or St. Paul's Cathedrals are excessive. = Their effect in such noble edifices is nothing less than stunning, as is = the use to which they are primarily dedicated. These and similar = places are world-famous, favorite recital and recording locations. Here = in the U.S., the Cathedral of St. John the Divine is comparable both in = the scale and effect of the building and the size and reputation of the = organ. At almost 8000 pipes, it is large but not the largest, even = within New York City. I wouldn't want it any smaller, but neither can I = imagine what great improvement could come from its being larger.   In the past two decades, however, several American organs have again = been built that dwarf it. Will they and the buildings housing them = become the timeless meccas for top recitalists, recording artists, and = audiences the world over that the above places are? Such is hardly = true thus far of the Crystal Cathedral organ, which, to begin with, is = in such an anomalous environment that one can seldom find most of it = reasonably in tune. I wonder what their maintenance costs are *every* = Saturday so that, with luck, it can make a good impression for one hour = every Sunday morning in front of the television cameras. Talk-about = hothouse flowers.... Of this and the other new monsters..... tick, = tock.... we're still waiting.....   > =20  
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:36:47 -0700 (PDT)   Hee Hee,   I knew this would get you all going!   Actually, I wouldn't consider St John-the-Divine as excessive for such a vast building, which rather makes my point!   Crystal Cathedral really is two organs + digital in a huge greenhouse; the precedents being the Great Exhibition in London and elsewhere.   Riverside I have never seen, but to place this in perspective, I heard a 13 speaking stop Flentrop which FILLED a Dutch cathedral with glorious sound only a few weeks back. Whilst acknowledging that Riverside has quite an absorbent acoustic and needs more sound energy to fill it, does it really need to be so enormous?   Don't misunderstand me, because I quite like those big American instruments at their best. Apart from anything else, they are a statement of an age, and really should be regarded as national treasures, just as Liverpool is in the UK.   BUT.......   What is/was the purpose of HUGE specifications?   Were they musically inspired, or simply a political statement?   The same, incidentally, applies to a few organs in the UK, and quite a few in Germany also.   I still reckon that an organ with more or less everything required, could be built with about 70 or so stops, and a specialised instrument would require half that number to be effective.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK         --- OrganMD@aol.com wrote: > Dear Colin and list ......... > > In a word, NO! > > If you really believe that 70 stops is enough for > any and all venues, you > need to take a trip to the USA   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Libel, slander, and being an adult From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:39:56 -0400   That's what fine print is for.   Nelson Weathering the storm fine. But getting flooded with phoney Microsoft Updates =3D Virus! Look out = folks     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 18-Sep-03  
(back) Subject: Riverside Church - Acoustic From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:03:06 -0400   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: Re: Atlantic City     > > Riverside I have never seen, but to place this in > perspective, I heard a 13 speaking stop Flentrop which > FILLED a Dutch cathedral with glorious sound only a > few weeks back. Whilst acknowledging that Riverside > has quite an absorbent acoustic and needs more sound > energy to fill it, does it really need to be so > enormous? >   Dear Colin,   Be prepared, when you finally make that great trip across the ocean with your retinue, to find a very different Riverside Church than the one you describe. The acoustics were recently "done up" in the way that many other places have now been treated, e.g. Princeton and Duke Chapels, St. Thomas Church for starters, and the effect is little less than magnificent. It = did indeed have "quite an absorbent acoustic," but no more.   We're watching for you.   Cheers,   Malcolm      
(back) Subject: Re: Riverside Church - New organ required From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:09:38 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Oh!   So they don't NEED that big organ anymore?   Just think Malcolm, how a NEW Mander would sound with 30 speaking stops.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell (running for cover)     --- Malcolm Wechsler <manderusa@earthlink.net> wrote: > > Be prepared, when you finally make that great trip > across the ocean with > your retinue, to find a very different Riverside > Church than the one you > describe. The acoustics were recently "done up"   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com