PipeChat Digest #3993 - Friday, September 19, 2003 Pastoral authority in liturgy (Luth.) by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Atlantic City by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Riverside Church, and a Word About OHS 2004 by "Malcolm Wechsler" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Pastoral authority in liturgy (Luth.) by "Shirley" <email@example.com> RE: stop controls by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: PLAYing Music by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <email@example.com> Memories from a Junior Organbuilder 02 by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Stop Controls! by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> RE: stop controls by "David Evangelides" <email@example.com> RE: stop controls by "Mike Franch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Huge Specifications by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: Riverside Church - Acoustic by <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Re: Riverside Church - Acoustic by <ProOrgo53@aol.com> A-S Master Ensemble Pistons by <OrganNYC@aol.com> Re: Hymn Registration by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Hymn Registration by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Pastoral authority in liturgy (Luth.) by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Pastoral authority in liturgy (Luth.) by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Huge Specifications by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Hurricane Isabel by "Mike Franch" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Pastoral authority in liturgy (Luth.) From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:39:23 -0400 On 9/19/03 11:16 AM, "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> wrote: > What do you mean, exactly, Alan? In my ELCA church, if the pastor were t= o > decide to introduce a new liturgical setting (e.g., LBW no. 3, which I wo= uld > love to see used) he would risk a congregational rebellion. I'm not sure I CAN explain how it actually "works" in practice--because significant conflict on the subject is so very rare (in my experience). But by all means, it DOES entail the "risk of a congregational rebellion." He can DO it, but he'd better exercise that "usus liturgicus" authority wit= h some wisdom (or, failing that, common sense). Even personal charm might help. =20 When I was a parish pastor, in three very varied (non-upscale) congregation= s (rural North Dakota, South Bronx in the mid 60s, and working-class white suburb in Baltimore) I exercised that authority all the time--but ALWAYS after teaching leading up to it, and discussion with the Church Council, an= d asking them to "ratify" my decision. Subjects covered included chancel furnishings (flags, pulled-out altar, location of font), liturgical texts and music, vestments, role of "assistin= g ministers," etc. But, in those days, the BIGGIE was communion frequency. In all three cases, when I arrived, they were "monthly." In each case, on arrival, I informed both Council and congregation that I intended to "teach= " and "persuade" them to desire it more frequently. That was acceptable. An= d I taught and praught like mad, and the Word was used by the Holy Spirit ver= y effectively, and we made great progress--slowly and gently. Less important was tossing out shotglasses and using the chalice. Again, teach and preach, and people will GO with you. It was almost 100% successful from Day One. So, sure, I had the authority to "enact" like mad, but just used a differen= t approach. If there'd been a real difference of opinion, it almost surely would have started from the Council's side: "Let's use a different hymnal" or a different translation of the Lord's Prayer. If I agreed, it would be done; if I did not, the subject would be closed. (But I don't recall any such actual cases.) Our present pastor, back in June, suggested to the Church Council that on Sundays when the temperature is over 80 deg., we'd have the service in our air-conditioned lounge. They agreed, and they enacted. A fair number of people didn't like it, and said so. If it were Phoenix, and the season lasted longer, I think the pastor would have had to insist, in order to get his way. But it's not, and it didn't, so there was really no rebellion, just temporary discontent. As for Setting 3, we use all three; #3 is for Advent and Lent (we chant the Our Father a cappella, and people LOVE to do it); #1 is for dull (green) Sundays; #2 is for everything else. And, with the exception of one very dear lady who hated #3 until her recent death, but now sings it in heaven (where the lines of authority are quite clear), everybody likes it that way= , even though some say that #1 is =B3boring.=B2 Which it is. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:49:40 -0400 On 9/19/03 12:36 PM, "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> wrote: > Whilst acknowledging that Riverside has quite an absorbent acoustic and = needs > more sound energy to fill it, does it really need to be so enormous? I think that the unanimous reply would be "No." But I think most people would add that that instrument is so large because it's an expression of = the renowned personality of one of their previous organists. Whether "needed" or not, the rationale was different. Alan
(back) Subject: Riverside Church, and a Word About OHS 2004 From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:59:56 -0400 Dear Colin - (listmembers may eavesdrop), Since its Director is a lover of Riverside Church and wants this new = Organ, I presume that the Colin Mitchell Foundation is prepared to write the check!? Truly, in the new acoustic, the Riverside Organ Aeolian-Skinner is simply sumptuous. There is a summer recital series, Tuesdays, I believe, and it = is AIR CONDITIONED. Plan on leaving room for that night on your tour. By the way, and this is serious. For the first time in a while, the OHS CONVENTION will be in July this year, which will, I know, enable many = people from your side of the world to attend. At least those I know who teach or those who learn are generally unable to come to June conventions. Joe = McCabe has already created a quite wonderful program, about which you will hear more in the months ahead. It happens in Buffalo, this year, and if you = have a little extra time, Niagara Falls is right around the corner. Canada is also around the corner, so if you want to marry whomever and of whatever gender, that's a good place to do it! Cheers, Malcolm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 1:09 PM Subject: Re: Riverside Church - New organ required > Hello, > > Oh! > > So they don't NEED that big organ anymore? > > Just think Malcolm, how a NEW Mander would sound with > 30 speaking stops. > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell (running for cover) > > > --- Malcolm Wechsler <email@example.com> wrote: > > > > Be prepared, when you finally make that great trip > > across the ocean with > > your retinue, to find a very different Riverside > > Church than the one you > > describe. The acoustics were recently "done up"
(back) Subject: Re: Pastoral authority in liturgy (Luth.) From: "Shirley" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:25:36 -0400 > I'm not sure I CAN explain how it actually "works" in > practice--because significant conflict on the subject is so very rare > (in my experience). ALL worship planning should be done as a team: ALL pastors, lay leaders, = music professionals, and perhaps one person as the "head" worship planner who assembles this group and all the materials (my dream job, btw). Changes to the liturgy shouldn't be made willy-nilly; nor should they be = made for the occasional Sunday. Liturgical variety should be used perhaps seasonally = (maybe twice Post-Pentecost). "Sundays & Seasons" provides for us ELCA'ers a = great variety, choice, and suggestions for both the spoken parts of the service = and the musical portions of the service, while still being faithful to the ordo. Setting III is perhaps the most difficult to sing, as well as the least = used, in my experience. It also has the sung "Lord's Prayer". Music and liturgy from all times and from all places: this should be a = common goal in every church. --Shirley
(back) Subject: RE: stop controls From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:09:55 -0400 Andres Gunther firstname.lastname@example.org My hands- on favourites are drawknobs in french styled terrace layout = (Klais arranges the terraces in horseshoe shape) but I am aware that on very = large organs this can become quite uncomfortable / difficult to realize. For this my second alternative preference: Horseshoe arranged tabs. I don't like rocker tabs - cannot explain why. Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: RE: PLAYing Music From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:14:30 -0400 Andres Gunther firstname.lastname@example.org Just a few thoughts. I remained as silent spectator in this church music threads- it's interesting and somewhat comfortable to know that organists = in other countries face the same frustrating problems as where I live. Our German Lutheran Pastor once said that the worst paid church related profession is the music- and he comes from a country where church = musicians get the best wages and treatment in the world! Church musicians must get a regular, decent, both material *and* moral payment. One alone isn't enough! Every organist -no matter if volunteering layman or high degreed church musician- hides an artist's nature. Artists usually are more sensible than common people; more sensible than most Parishes, Pastors and commitee members. Here lies a great part of the problem in my opinion. It is out of discussion that a church musician deserves a proper wage for his job as anybody else. Even volunteers should get a bonus now and then. But a church musician can get the highest wages and play on a first line instrument, but he or she will feel unhappy in his or her position when = the church people begin to take his or her work "for granted" and never say a good word. With this I come to another really nasty problem which every church-man = (not only the organist!) faces: it's the routine. A mass or worship isn't a mission anymore but becomes just 'one commitment more'. Boring sets in; = with it quality decay. For this my actual parish advises our people to *not* commulgate everyday (!), and change the church or at least the mass hour from time to time to avoid boring, routine and consequent spiritual emptiness. He by himself takes generous vacations twice a year for this. Our archdiocese changes = the parishes every four years now, exactly for the same reason (until 15 years ago an average parish had a lifelong position in his church). Regretfully nobody suggests the organists to do so :)- heck, the guys "only come for = an hour to play a little on the 'piano'..." - and back we come to our initial problem... To the other side, have care: The fact that people "never say nothing" = about the music in their church doesn't mean that they "never notice nothing". Common people can be more sensible to church music standards than we are ready to realize. An organist who plays "as for not to leave", another one who performs to show up and a third one who plays well because he feels = so: The three manners are well appreciated, even when not always commented. I know people who move to churches where they get the better music... and = not precisely the better praise-band (which, thanks to heaven, is getting somewhat out of fashion in my country). A last but not least thought: We don't play "for the Commitee" or "for the people", less "for ourselves"; we play for HIM. I never will forget an old lady (Church Music Director Emeritus) who said that every false note is an offense to our Lord... Thinking it over very well, I must make a = Contrition as soon as possible. Yours Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: Memories from a Junior Organbuilder 02 From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:08:08 -0400 Andres Gunther firstname.lastname@example.org With 14 years one depends from the good will of other people almost for all - this was the first hard, cold (and annoying) fact I had to find out when I started with my project. Venezuela isn't an organ country and Daddy only knew how to play organ. Outside this, my parents were hard working, busy people. Mr. Schmeltzer was a far away legend who lived in his retirement home outside Caracas, nobody knew exactly where. The = Castellanos' were in France. Hencefore there was no way to ask for advising or get specialized literature outside some illustrations and the entry of our Brockhaus Encyclopedia. I couldn't open the organ in San Jose to study its inwards either and this way I was forced to work by trial and error, figuring out. Almost immediately it was clear that the instrument I was building would = be too small to host mechanical windchests plus tracker action, and a direct electric action was due. In this time most cars still had electromagnetic current regulators and I started a begging pilgrimage from auto shop to = auto shop recollecting wornout regulators to get the 12 V electromagnet spools. An old transformer from my long ago dead electric train was intended as power source. Another problem, the wood, was solved by fortune: a new freeway was under construction nearby my house, and dozens of buildings stood empty for demolition with plenty of wood from doors and abandoned furniture available. In one of the car shops I got a radiator fan, and an old wash maschine supplied the motor. With this I had the raw material for the blower. I started with the keyboards taking their measures from our Grand. A local carpenter was so kind to saw them out with the bandsaw. The key coverings problem was solved with white and black spray enamel since FormicaTM was = too expensive for me. Then I started with the case, where a nasty phenomenon came out: Nevertheless my extreme care measuring lattices and boards the stuff didn't fit together at last- we hadn't "error calculation" in school but a year later. Nevertheless the organ took form. When I started with = the pedalboard it was time for my father for a ring-in: "Be sure to make the pedals out of first class hardwood. I am tired of wornout pedals", he = said. Hardwood?- gosh, I wasn't able to differentiate a wood from another in = that time. Laying this technical problem aside I assembled the blower: the fan plus motor in a funnel shaped wooden tunnel. The noise was awful; the old motor got sizzling hot in no time, but the "funnel blower" worked; and I started with the next step: the metal work. Since we weren't a wealthy family we purchased "Ilapeca" powdermilk. This brand was manufactured and subventioned by the government, hencefore it = was much less expensive than 'normal' powdermilk. I started to collect empty powdermilk cans and cut them through with mom's pruning scissors. This was the metal for pipes and key contacts. I made the key contacts first and learned a further important thing: for mass production of small parts you must make a prototype or pattern and copy all pieces from this one- not = from other already made pieces because a copy from a copy from a copy results = in unaccuracy. Soon enough several boxes full with keyboard contacts and = metal scraps stood around in my bedroom, which to that time seemed a combination of a carpentry, a laboratory and a dumpyard. "The Monster" (as mom = baptized the organ) stood in the middle and everybody had to squeeze between it and the wall to enter my room. My bed was workbench and material depot as well... 1974 was a very rainy year. On mid August I ran out of money- and, to be sincere, energy. Having to sleep among tools, scraps and sawdust isn't just relaxing. A colleague = from my father who played violin dropped in and I showed him the big work. He tried out the keyboards- stone hard the first half and "plumcake-flappy" = the others because I hadn't money for a matching spring set. The man, who = played the piano a litlle, raised his eyebrows. I pushed the "start" switch and = the blower came to noisy life raising a sawdust cloud which filled the whole bedroom. Daddy's colleague said: "well, at least there is a working piece = in your invent- and it *sounds*". When I showed him the "pipe metal sheets" = he laughed out aloud: "Thee hee, what will you play on this thing when it's finished- jingles for state subventioned powder milk?" (to be ctd) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: RE: Stop Controls! From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:00:14 -0400 > Also on the Bish tapes was that Freiburg Cathedral console with the concave tablet stop jambs, very interesting. Like Wanamaker's? I suppose for an organ as large as that, it's the = only style that could possibly put enough controls within reach, simply = a question of density. When the four-manual Austin at S. Clement's, Philadelphia was rebuilt = some eight years ago, I suppose that Peter Richard Conte could have any = kind of console he wanted. In this case, he took the Wanamaker console = as a model in some respects, with tilting tablets on each side (except = that, as I recall, they are not concave) and swell shoes that are = literally shoe-shaped. I consider him a master of console design. The = results are both carefully thought out and elegant. But in another = instance he had preferred an English-looking four-manual drawknob = console, with stop jambs that were more tall than wide. =20 Perhaps in each case location and logistics were decisive. At S. = Clement's the console is just past the Communion rail on the north side. = He has the divided choir to his right and across from him. The = Anglo-catholic ceremonial is extremely elaborate, with frequent = processions around the nave, through the choir, etc. The organist must = be in visual contact with many points in the building. It would even be = good if he could observe the preacher's going to and from the pulpit on = the north side in front of the nave(escorted by verger or master of = ceremonies), since this might occasion a brief improvisation. A = drawknob console would probably not be as commodious in this regard; the = organist would feel boxed in and less able to see.
(back) Subject: RE: stop controls From: "David Evangelides" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:07:13 -0500 My preference: I am used to, and like the tabs as on a Theatre organ configuration. The tabs allow for a quick engagement of several stops at the same time, although rapid/multiple disengagement is easier on drawknobs. Color coding of ranks makes it easy to identify in dim lighting. Horseshoe shape allow eay reach with with L or R hand. However, the knobs mounted on side wings gives the traditional classical church look. David E David Evangelides Colorado Springs, Colorado
(back) Subject: RE: stop controls From: "Mike Franch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:10:37 -0500 Our Prayer Chapel has an electronic Rodgers, which have "rocker" tabs. The = reason for the quotes is they don't rock - rather - they spring back to = the center. It is not idiot proof. When adding a stop here and there I sometimes forget if I have to press = the upper half of the stop orthe lower half of the stop to get sound. It's gotten me a few times! I like drawknobs or real rockers. I've also enjoyed the sliders on a Dobson tracker. Try moving one over with your = eldow during a piece! Mike Franch in Madison, WI _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=3Dfeatures/es
(back) Subject: Huge Specifications From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:12:49 EDT >What is/was the purpose of HUGE specifications? Well we did it because we could. We are having a very large brand new sanctuary built. We needed flexibility. I had the experience playing a = monstrous organ before. Bottom line, we have the money to do it, so we are doing = it. The philosophy of our new building is that we are not cutting any corners = in planning and building the new church. In the long run, it's a cost = savings. We won't have to go back and add some stops to the organ. We won't need to = go put down new flooring in the sanctuary. We're not going to have to = rebuild part of the building because the roof leaked and flooded out part of the = building and the plaster walls are crumbling. (I speak from experience on the = flooding issues....one of my former church's chapels became a swimming pool every = time it rained and the roof leaked so much, the stairwells to the choir room = are coming down in chunks....but that's another story) We see the long term mission of the church as being a beacon in the community, not to have to keep going back and fixing/upgrading the church = building. Do it once and do it right. So that's why we are buying such a large new = organ. Musical fads come and go, but this instrument will be able to play = whatever is put on its music rack--from Renaissance to Contemporary Christian, from = Theatre Organ to Gospel. We will have a plethora of stops to choose from = to adequately play any style of music properly. We will have a quality = instrument that lasts for years to come. We will have a church building that won't = be in shambles in a few years. We have the foresight to do it right the first = time, which means a lot of cash outlay at first, but represents a long term = savings in the end. So that's why we are getting a huge organ. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: Riverside Church - Acoustic From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:50:40 -0400 Riverside Church is, these days IMHO, anything but absor
(back) Subject: Re: Riverside Church - Acoustic From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:52:29 -0400 Riverside Church is, these days IMHO, anything BUT absorbent acoustically. = Hard surfaces are everywhere and the organ graciously fills the room from = top to bottom, literally and pitchwise! ENJOY! Dale Rider Independence, MO
(back) Subject: A-S Master Ensemble Pistons From: <OrganNYC@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:00:17 EDT The two very large Aeolian-Skinner organs in NYC -- Riverside and St. Bartholomew's -- have "Master Ensemble" pistons. These are "blind" = general pistons, meaning that they do not visibly move the drawknobs and couplers. These pistons are engraved with Roman Numerals, and have indicator lights to = show when they are activated. On these two organs, the Master Ensembles are set = from soft to loud, meaning ME I is softest and ME VI is loudest. Perhaps some of you are familiar with these controls, and might be able to = answer my questions: 1. Were "Master Ensemble" pistons also used by EMS? by other builders? 2. Did A-Skinner include them on many of their largest organs? 3. When one presses a Master Ensemble piston, do those settings override what is already active? i.e., if the Positiv Krummhorn + Tremulant are = pulled out, would pressing ME I (with celestes, etc.) "cut out" those stops if = they were not included in that particular ME setting? 4. Are the ME pistons "hard-wired" someplace in the chamber, or is there = a setterboard to adjust them? 5. Does the General Cancel also cancel a ME piston? Steve Lawson - NYC
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:22:56 EDT In a message dated 9/19/2003 11:50:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: > Sometimes these variables dictate an on-the-spot unanticipated change in = > registrations -- and no generic generals would do that job. > To me on the contrary, knowing what generals are what, I would be able to work on the spot changes on the fly.... Too much fun on this thread. dale inFlorida
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Registration From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:26:01 EDT In a message dated 9/19/2003 11:35:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PEMMONS@wcupa.edu writes: > heavens, for those who keep all their general pistons permanently set in = an > exquisite build-up, what do they do for the registration needs and = changes > of specific repertoire that is what another memory level is for OR manual pistons. As Herr Hancock used to say, salvation is only a half step away. In this case, the next general will arrive. Again I say, each hymn is different each time so dont set anything. Use the teenager with interest as a registrant. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Pastoral authority in liturgy (Luth.) From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:37:14 EDT In a message dated 9/19/2003 1:45:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > --but ALWAYS after teaching leading up to it, and discussion with the > Church Council, and asking them to "ratify" my decision OH MY GOD! A pastor with people skills. My retired bunch of members here = will try anything if they know why or how or if. They sing 7-11 songs as = per pastoral request but we DONT tell them it is happy Jesus music, just teach = them about NEW forms of worship and how throughout the O.T. we went from formal = to ecstatic to formal to ecstatic worship. The Bible comes alive to them, = they are taught and life goes on. Kinda like making good service playing on the organ available whether it = is a toaster or 100 ranks or 2 ranks with multilevel memories or, God forbid, factory presets. (Never met a WurliTzer I could not use the "presets" and do a performance = on. Could it have been better or more or more clever? SURE. But I could count = on it being what it said.) so much fun so little time dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Pastoral authority in liturgy (Luth.) From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:38:55 EDT In a message dated 9/19/2003 2:26:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: > Setting III is perhaps the most difficult to sing, as well as the least > used, in my > experience. It also has the sung "Lord's Prayer". > > Never used in my church. We sing Malotte every once in a while. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Huge Specifications From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:42:43 EDT In a message dated 9/19/2003 3:14:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = RMB10@aol.com writes: > Well we did it because we could And that is the way it should be. Red with jealousy that I cant...... <G> dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Hurricane Isabel From: "Mike Franch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:45:07 -0500 I would be curious to hear how everyone in its path was affected by the hurricane. I know there are many fine organs out there, and watching the hurricane on the RADAR the other day, gave me concern for all. Mike Franch in Madison, WI _________________________________________________________________ Need more e-mail storage? Get 10MB with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=3Dfeatures/es