PipeChat Digest #3995 - Saturday, September 20, 2003
 
Good Lutheran Music in Dresden
  by "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: Serious misrepresentation
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough)
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: Organ Crawl Tomorrow In DeKalb, Illinois
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Motion of the ocean
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
RE: Disney Hall
  by "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com>
Re: stop controls
  by "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com>
Re: Serious misrepresentation
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Malotte
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re:Generals and Hymn registration
  by "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net>
Re: Hymn registration
  by "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net>
 

(back) Subject: Good Lutheran Music in Dresden From: "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:59:51 -0400   My daughters have given me a "scholarship" to study German at the Goethe Institute in Dresden, and I'll at long last be able to take up this most generous gift in March 2004. It's an interesting challenge, given how the wires from here to there in my brain seem to be a bit corroded!! :-)   I would value recommendations of one or more Evangelische Kirchen in Dresden where good music is to be heard within Gottesdienst. I know very little aboout the city thus far but have recently come upon a map, and comments about the location of such church(es) and how to go there via public transportation would also be valuable and greatly appreciated. The Goethe Institute is located at K=F6nigsbr=FCcker Strasse 84, thus quite near th= e Elbe. =20   I'm not very good at German, but at least I've started trying to memoriz= e the Lord's Prayer and the Apostles' Creed against the day I get to any such church. =20   All help gratefully received. Danke sch=F6n.   Der alte pensionierte Kappelmeister Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA    
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:16:05 -0400   It's not that way here=2E The people on the committees don't wanna give u= p power easily here and they don't let him do everything he wants=2E Add to=   that that there are certain people on the committees that don't like him and talk about it in public which they should not be doing=2E They have a=   right to dislike him but they shouldn't talk about him behind his back=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: Keys4bach@aol=2Ecom Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:09:06 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs=2E Musician pay (was enough is enough)     In a message dated 9/18/2003 11:16:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 ameagher@stny=2Err=2Ecom writes:   > in, but the pastor just doesn't have that kind of > power in this one=2E >=20 >=20   Being a member of UMC, being a seminary trained (but not graduated)=20 Methodist, yea verily I say unto you:   If the pastor wants it the pastor gets unless the pastor is so disliked that=20 the SPR has voted for removal=2E   The pastor may not sign everything and all that, but it is the pastor's=20=   place=2E Oh yes, I live in a fire at will state and the DS's remind pastor= s of that=20 at EVERY ANNUAL conference and Annual CHARGE conference=2E=2E=2Emusic pers= on beware=2E   dale in Florida     -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:19:19 -0400   I agree Monty=2E I have always thought "How can you give a price by rank becuase a 16ft posaune rank is gonna cost MUCH more than a 2ft prinicpal rank" Well said=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: MSFDULHPQQWOYI Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:40:42 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation     >That's not even close to what I have heard Dale=2E I hear the average is=   >$12,000-$15,000 a rank=2E An en chamade will run a little higher, about >$20,000 from what I've heard=2E > >Andrew   Having just been through the design and contract phase of a large new=20 instrument, I feel that as the organist I can offer some insight here=2E = Our builder=20 told me from the start what a ballpark average cost per rank was, but was very=20 quick to tell me that the average rank price was a very bad way to figure=20=   cost=2E The bottom octave of a 16' stop often costs as much as a complete= 8' rank=2E =20 Depending on the material the pipe is made out of, the cost can vary=20 considerably=2E Even two stops of similar character from different divisi= ons will=20 vary--example, our 8' Great Principal will be a very high tin content, while the 8'=20 Principal in the Grand Choeur will have a low tin content=2E Different metals=20 =3D different price=2E Factor in that a rank might be extended, or partia= l=20 compass, and the cost changes again=2E Our builder would not give a qute = on the price=20 until the specification was finalized so he could quote exact figures=2E = I=20 specified some unique things and the size of the room dicatated some other=   unique=20 things--I specified wood resonators on one of the 16' pedal reeds, a very=20=   large scale Principal chorus on the Grand Choeur, beefy scales on all ranks, and=20 a facade that will have full length 32' in it=2E Talk about driving the c= ost=20 up! There's no way to average out the cost of an organ that has seven 32'= =20 stops, a forest of 16's and large scales on everything else=2E The 16' Op= en Wood and=20 the 1' Fife aren't comparable in any way, shape or form=2E It's not fair = to=20 average an instrument like that=2E It might be fairer to average the pric= e on a 3=20 rank unit organ where all the stops are similar--8' Principal, 8' Flute, 8= '=20 Sting (unified to heaven and back!), but when you get to a large pipe organ,=20 with casework, polished tin facade pipes, a console with hand carvings and= =20 inlays, there are just too many variables to give a fair average price per=   rank=20 quote=2E   Monty Bennett Friendship Missionary Baptist Church Charlotte, NC     -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs. Musician pay (was enough is enough) From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:22:57 -0400   Yes, that is true Merry and also in the Roman Catholic denomination=2E I like it this way becase the pastor can't just sack me for looking at him wrong=2E   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- From: MFoxy9795@aol=2Ecom Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:55:51 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg ("PipeChat") Subject: Re: Clergy pay vs=2E Musician pay (was enough is enough)     >Dennis, > >In the United Methodist Denomination (in which I work) there are so=20 >many >chekcs and balances that the pastor is hardly head of a corporation=20 >and the >amount of power he has is limited to far less that that of a=20 >corporation >head=2E All the big business and money deicisions are made by the=20 >board of >trustees NOT the pastor=2E The chair of the trustees and several other >people must sign any legal document, NOT just the pastor I don't=20 >know what >denomination you are in, but the pastor just doesn't have that kind=20 >of >power in this one=2E > >Andrew > In the Episcopal Church, the Rector DOES have that kind of power=2E   Merry Foxworth   =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8=2E=B7=B4 =2E=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4 =2E=2E=B7=B4 -:=A6:-=20   An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions:=20 "There let the pealing organ blow,=20 To the full-voiced choir below,=20 In service high, and anthems clear,=20 As may with sweetness, through mine ear,=20 Dissolve me into ecstasies,=20 And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes"=2E=20 John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632)=2E=20   Open Door Realty=20 Boston, MA 02131 =20 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www=2Eopendoorrlty=2Ecom/ "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Crawl Tomorrow In DeKalb, Illinois From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:25:23 -0500   HI Devon, You should try the Howell organ at the Congragational Church in DeKalb too. It started life as a Greiss-Miles. We took it out and re-did everything. The supports that held the entire organ on both sides of the chancel were collapsing. They had used metal framework that wasn't strong enough. Have fun. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: <Devon3000@aol.com> To: <piporg-l@listserv.albany.edu>; <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 8:28 PM Subject: Organ Crawl Tomorrow In DeKalb, Illinois     > Don't know whether someone else has mentioned it, but the "happening" = AGO > Chapter, Fox Falley, Illinois, is having a neat organ crawl tomorrow morning. > Schedule as follows: > > 8:45 a.m. Refreshments and gathering at First Lutheran > 9:00 a.m. First Lutheran - Berghaus Organ 1993 3/49 > 9:40 a.m. St. Mary's Catholic Church - Howell Organ 1969 3/49 > 10:20 a.m. First Methodist - Berghaus Organ - 2001 3/30? > 11:15 a.m. NIU Concert Hall - Martin Ott Organ opus 17, 1983 3/63 > (If ever finished, missing Ruckpositiv) > Also Two practice organs, Zimmer 2M and Flentrop 2M > 12:15 p.m. Salem Lutheran in Sycamore - Howell Organ 1970 Opus 1022 = 2/24 > with Walker digital additions in 2002 > 1:20 p.m. Lunch at Culver's (this is worth the morning alone!) > > We're also looking forward to a great master class this coming Monday at 3:30 > p.m. with Craig Cramer, before his evening concert on the magnificent > Casavant at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois that evening. > > You all are invited to attend these events. > > Devon Hollingsworth > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >      
(back) Subject: Motion of the ocean From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:29:11 -0400   The recent posts regarding the size of instruments and the acoustics of various churches reminds me of Ann Lander's quip: it's not the size of the boat, it's the motion of the ocean. Translated to churches, that might be another way of saying that sometimes the best stop on the pipe organ is the room it's in, and the size isn't really the more important criteria.   Nu?   David Baker    
(back) Subject: RE: Disney Hall From: "ameagher@stny.rr.com" <ameagher@stny.rr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:48:58 -0400   There already are organ versions of some of the Fantasia pieces=2E Of cou= rse the toccata and fugue is an ogran piece to begin with=2E Peter Richard Co= nte also did an organ transcription of "the sorcerer's apprentice" on the Wanamker organ=2E I also believe there is an organ transcription of "Nigh= t on Bald Mountain"   Andrew   Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: BDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSC Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:24:43 -0500 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Disney Hall     Regarding the Disney Hall organ, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, the design! It's=20 original, creative, whimsical, and hopefully people will have fun with it=2E= =20 It's "thinking outside the box" at its finest=2E   There's always room for fun, isn't there? After all, do we know of anyone=20=   that appreciates NOT having fun? Or is that a contradictory term?   Hopefully, the design will put the organ in the national spotlight for=20 awhile and inspire non organ enthusiasts to take at least a passing interest=20 in it and visit their local churches or concert halls for more pipe organ=20=   listening pleasure=2E=2E   And maybe we will hear a few Disney tunes on the thing=2E Although I'm not= =20 intimately familiar with "Fantasia", I think that would be a good start, t= o=20 write an organ accompaniment to=2E   Mike Franch in Madison, WI   _________________________________________________________________ Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today! =20 https://broadband=2Emsn=2Ecom   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg       -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E      
(back) Subject: Re: stop controls From: "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:08:27 -0700     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org>   > I prefer draw knobs, but because I learned with draw knobs. First > impressions do last.   Lucky Glenda! I learned with stop tabs, but the first time I played on an organ with drawknobs on angled jambs (a wonderful 1928 Skinner 3/31 that survives to this day, although perhaps in need of a good deal of = attention), I transcended my first impressions. I've seen the lightning-fast flicks = that theatre organists can deliver to their tabs, but I feel most comfortable when I can aim at a cluster of related voices and be surer of what I'm reaching for because of their greater visibility and handiness. As an ergonomic proposition, I do think they're ideal complements to the size = and position of the keys we play on.   And of course, there's the intangible: to quote Herbert Norman, "There is also some psychological satisfaction in its positive and substantial movement. The pedal trombone somehow has a grander authority drawn by knob than when flicked on by stop-key."   Let's not underrate those factors that may help at least some of us to = play better.   MAF      
(back) Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 00:44:07 -0400   ----- Original Message ----- From: <ameagher@stny.rr.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 11:19 PM Subject: Re: Serious misrepresentation     I agree Monty. I have always thought "How can you give a price by rank becuase a 16ft posaune rank is gonna cost MUCH more than a 2ft prinicpal rank" Well said.   Andrew   <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dear Andrew and List,   This all seems a bit silly. Of course, a builder does not go to a = potential client, saying "we can give you an Organ for $20,000 per rank." We do not, in fact, talk much about ranks anyway, but rather about stops, because = each stop represents one action. One rank might only be one part of a stop, sharing an action with the others. Imagine giving out that price, and then working out a stoplist with the purchaser, who is determined to have three 32' stops, at least one 16' stop on each manual division, plus a couple of en chamade reeds, and a gorgeous, intricately carved case, including = reliefs of the preacher and the Organist. In other words, giving out a firm = per-stop price is madness.   Anyway, we calculate the entire cost, labor (man hours) and materials (a = bit of an estimate), the cost of whatever casework is decided upon, the cost = of transportation of men and materials, and then the specification, which = must be settled (with some wiggle room) before a price is agreed. The church is responsible for housing the installation and, later, the voicing crew. = They also hire electricians and pay for the electrical work connected with the Organ, such as work lights, console lights, and wiring for the blower. (By the way, there is also something called "standing time." This represents time when our crew, which is being paid both a salary and also a perdiem = for when on the road, cannot work because of weddings, funerals, and anything else that might interfere with the work. There is a pretty hefty fee for hours of standing time. It makes a church think twice before doing unnecessary things that will slow down the work on the Organ. Obviously, there is a certain amount of understanding and give in both directions, = but there have been times when we have had to invoke this clause rather too much. St. Ignatius on Manhattan is a very busy place, but they worked hard to accommodate us, which included moving the daily noon Mass to a chapel = in another building.)   Somewhere along the line, as the specification is being drawn up, we = present the client with a spread sheet listing all the stops chosen, along with = some other possibilities, with the cost of each one, including the appropriate action arrangements. When the megalomaniacal Organist, contemplating his = 12 stop Organ, decides he would rather have a Tuba Mirabilis than the = Cromorne, he (and the committee) can immediately see the cost implications.   It is possible for us to say that our instruments *average out* at about $xx.xxx per stop, which may be helpful, but the differences can be wide.   I hope that might be helpful in bringing this discussion to a = well-deserved close.   Cheers,   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com          
(back) Subject: Malotte From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:44:41 -0500   In other words, Randy, it speaks powerfully to millions of folk while the intelligentsia puts it down! ;>)   As Abraham Lincoln said, "God must have loved the common man--He made so many of them."   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats ________ "Malotte is to religious music what Warner Sallman is to religious painting."   Randy Runyon    
(back) Subject: Re:Generals and Hymn registration From: "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:32:22 -0400   How do you set up your general pistons from left to right or from 1 to ? >or whatever your arrangement is.   Our 1975 Casavant has 6 generals. They are: 1) 8 and 4 flutes on Great and Swell, 8 on Positiv, manuals coupled at unison. The Positiv Koppelflute 4 can be added to increase brightness and volume, but it left off initially because it is the loudest 4' flute. 2) Great - Prinzipal 8, + Sw 16, Pos 8; Positiv - Fernflute 8 + Sw 8. = This is a wonderful rich principal sound for choruses and quiet hymn introductions. 3) Great - Prinzipal 8, 4, Spitzflote 4; Positiv - Fernflute 8, Prinzipal = 4; Swell - Rohrflote 8, Spitzprinzipal 4, Waldflote 2; unison couplers. A good, solid principal sound for congregational singing. 4) Great - Prinzipal 8, 4, Spitzflote 4, Flachflote 2; Positiv - = Fernflote, Gedekt 8, Prinzipal 4; Swell - Gemshorn 8, Spitzprinzipal 4, Waldflote 2; unison couplers, plus Sw/Gr 16. The Gemshorn in the Swell is very soft = and give slight gravity to the combination. 5) Same as 4, with the addition of Swell - Mixtur IV, Oboe 8; Positiv - Koppelflote 4, Pedal - Fagotto 16. 6) is left for voluntaries, usually the postlude.   One of the strangities of this organ is the balance between the Great and Positiv. The Oktav 4 on the Great and Positiv are the same scale and volume. The Positiv Oktave 2 is significantly larger and louder than the relatively gentle Great Flachflote 2. And, as typical of the period, the Great Fourniture IV is not as loud as the Positiv Scharf III. These = things combined makes the Positiv the more prominent division.   Also, since this is a Southern Baptist church and organ and piano are used together on hymns, the organ is kept more in the role of accompaniment, providing a wash of fundamental sound which fills the room and supports = the congregation. The piano is more of the leader and is also miked! On "choruses" the organ must back off even more due to the presence of the synthesizer and guitars.   We have only used the organ with the adult choir once in the year I've = been there; anthems are accompanied by the piano. > >How do you register for everyday hymn playing? Do you have special >settings for certain hymns?. Do you have a registration that causes great >emotion and pride whenever you use it? Do you change setting in mid verse >or between verses? Which hymn in your church gets everyone practically on >their feet when you play it? I would also like for you to include your >denomination when you respond if its not obvious.   Hymn registrations are primarily on principal sound to give a full, rich flood of sound throughout the room. I tend to alter registrations by phrases of the text, for instance, adding a stronger 4 Prinzipal or 2 stop to highlight the phrase. Occasionally this is done with the Swell = Mixture and Oboe with the box initially closed. Very occasionally, mixtures will be added for the closing phrase of the hymn. Occasional lines are emphasized as solos using the Great Trompet or Sesquialtera; I also occasionally use the Krummhorn or Oboe, either on soprano or tenor line. For quiet hymns, the Positiv Koppelflote 4 with Tremolo is excellent for a solo voice, played an octave higher. Occasionally, on gospel hymns the Swell flutes 8 4 2 with Tremolo give a nice tibiaesque effect. I also = use chimes fairly frequently on hymns, but not as a melodic solo; rather as harmonic decoration.   At times when the piano is playing "the page" I do chordal accompaniments, sometimes an octave higher, or play counter melodies or descants. The pianist and I have a great time decorating hymns.   The hymns that really get the congregation's juices going are the standard gospel repertory, such as "Are Ye Able," and traditional protestant hymns, such as "Guide Me, Oh Thou Great Jehovah." Of course, "Holy, Holy, Holy" and "Crown Him With Many Crowns" are always roof-raisers. Another thing that gets them singing is raising the key by a half-step (with a simple dominant seventh) for the final refrain.   Registrations for hymns vary subtly (so as not to scare the animals) from stanza to stanza, and most often changes are made during the stanza.   Scritchies and Haruffarrroooo-bow-ha-wow...     Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at HowlingAcres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 Help Some Animals Free: http://tinyurl.com/2j5i and http://pets.care2.com/welcome?w=3D308025421 Get paid to shop cheap: http://bdawg.freestoreclub.com/ and http://www.smartmall.biz?717886      
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn registration From: "Bruce Cornely" <cremona@cervo.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 00:12:58 -0400   Monty said: <<I use the zimbelstern for a few measures when the text says "my chains fell off, my heart was free"--it comes on in one measure and I pop = it right back off in the next. >>   But take heart, oh ye without Zimblesterns! I love them and use them frequently, even if only for a phrase or two, or even a stanza in a joyful hymn.   Years ago I played an organ without a zimblestern, but my predecessor had trained the choir to hold small cords with indian bells tied to them. On cue, the choristers would jingle! I didn't care for this method because the choristers seemed to get tired too easily and weren't always ready, so = I took the bells and strung them from a square frame which was placed at the treble end of the pedalboard. When I wanted the zimblestern, I just = stuck my right foot into the "square" and kicked like a dog getting a tummy scritchies! We called this thing a "Simplestern."   In my present position we have a set of drums for the folk group. One of the "toys" is a set of small chime tubes (wind chimes) that are attached = to a stand about 4' tall. The drummer never used them, so I "borrowed" them and they sit on the left side of the console next to the bench. When I want a zimblestern, I just stick my hand into the chimes and wiggle my fingers. The congregations loves it and the choir gets a kick out of the visual aspect.   Where there is a will, there is a way. Scritchies and Haruffarrroooo-bow-ha-wow...   Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at HowlingAcres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 Help Some Animals Free: http://tinyurl.com/2j5i and http://pets.care2.com/welcome?w=3D308025421 Get paid to shop cheap: http://bdawg.freestoreclub.com/ and http://www.smartmall.biz?717886