PipeChat Digest #3997 - Saturday, September 20, 2003 Re: Atlantic City & Disney by "Peter Rodwell" <email@example.com> Howell by <Gfc234@aol.com> organ plus by <Gfc234@aol.com> Re: stop controls by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Re: Riverside Church, which is NOT an Aeolian-Skinner by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Anthem Selection Tool (long) by "Thurletta Brown-Gavins" <TMBROWN@vance.net> Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890) by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Re: THE Malotte by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Malotte by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Big, Biggs and Bigger by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Atlantic City by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Re: Atlantic City by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Re: stop controls by "M Fox" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Malotte and the Hollywood treatment by "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> Atlantic City and friends (LONG) by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Big, Biggs and Bigger by "M Fox" <email@example.com> Re: Anthem Selection Tool (long) by "Randolph Runyon" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Thomas Heywood in Utica, NY by "Stephen Best" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City & Disney From: "Peter Rodwell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:27:29 +0200 Europeans love criticizing the apparent American love of all things big, usually forgetting that America itself is a big place, hence the need for big cars to cover big distances, for example. The Atlantic City Convention Hall is gigantic and only a similarly gigantic organ would be heard there. The organ should be preserved, IMHO, because it is unique and the efforts of the ACCHOS to ensure its continued existence are to be applauded and encouraged. You can help the effort by buying the ACCHOS CD of the organ - it's well worth it. Re Disney, I find it ironic that so many in the organ world bemoan the lack of public interest in the organ but the moment a new instrument appears that is guaranteed to arose public interest, many of these same people condemn it. I find the design exciting and I think it's wonderful that an architect (normally second only to lawyers in the unpopular professions list) has not only interested himself in the organ but taken the trouble to make it visually spectacular too. Just my 2 euros' worth. Peter.
(back) Subject: Howell From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:13:58 EDT In a message dated 9/19/2003 10:26:21 PM Central Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: HI Devon, You should try the Howell organ at the Congragational Church in DeKalb too. It started life as a Greiss-Miles. We took it out and re-did everything. The supports that held the entire organ on both sides of the chancel were collapsing. They had used metal framework that wasn't strong enough. Have fun. Gary Speaking of Howell, the best kept secret in Northern Illinois is the = Howell organ at St. Luke's Episcopal, Dixon. 4 manuals, an antiphonal division, = a lovely chamade(in the back), 3 tubas-all great, lots of 8' power, 2 swell = oboes, a french horn, english horn,beautiful celestes, a 16' principal on the = great, a 32' reed in the swell. It can breath fire, and it can make you weap. = It's like a Woolsey in the corn fields. This organ is a real monster and is = capable of playing all literature perfectly. I think the organ is about 80 ranks, = in a SMALL church:) The church is also wonderful, and the accoustics are glorious when empty. The Illinois people on the list should make it a = point to see and play this organ. Gregory
(back) Subject: organ plus From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:31:23 EDT In a message dated 9/20/2003 12:46:31 AM Central Daylight Time, Pologaptommy@aol.com writes: Should the the organ be an "accompanying" instrument when playing with orchestras, or should the organ still be in the lead? Use your ears always. You might find that a beautiful meat and potatoes 8 = foot principal blends nicely with those instruments-if you are = accompanying anyway. Try to keep it simple and let the music happen. An organ built = (with an ideal budget) with accompaniment of orchestra, brass quartet, or large congregation in mind, should have the power to completely overwhelm = everything. I also feel that the brass players should be musical enough to play at a = proper dynamic with the organ, so as not to bury it. The organist's best trick = is to get loud only once or twice, so that everyone listening smiles, jumps, and = begs for more when you play tutti or throw on the 32. Gregory
(back) Subject: Re: stop controls From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:44:25 -0400 >Lucky Glenda! I learned with stop tabs, but the first time I played on an organ with drawknobs on angled jambs (a wonderful 1928 Skinner 3/31 that survives to this day, although perhaps in need of a good deal of = attention), Good morning all! Where might this skinner be? (C: -Nate "The Apprentice"
(back) Subject: Re: Riverside Church, which is NOT an Aeolian-Skinner From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:50:02 -0400 > I would like to point out that an organ that has had all of it's = principal > choruses replaced, most of the reeds replaced or revoiced, and even some of the > "slush" replaced or revoiced, is no longer an Aeolian-Skinner! ...... Both of these organs > are glorious now, in the original they were crudely voiced, dull, and grim, > grim, grim! Good morning again chatters, If that means these two organs were treated like the National Cathedral organ, I'd call that a bad thing. Im not a big fan of change. (C: = -Nate "The Apprentice"
(back) Subject: Anthem Selection Tool (long) From: "Thurletta Brown-Gavins" <TMBROWN@vance.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:02:32 -0400 I am so glad that I found this list through a Google search! Not only have I found a group of kindred spirits, but I see that I have found another organist/funeral director! (Hi, Monty!) Here is my problem and I hope someone out there can help. I am organist/choir director at a local North Carolina Baptist Church and we have used Malecki as our primary source for anthems. As a "closet Episcopalian" employed by a Baptist Church, anthem selection far in advance has always been simple because of the existence of published three-year-cycle lectionaries that contain the recommended scriptures for a particular Sunday, as well as resource books which contain anthem recommendations based on those scriptures. This is my eleventh year at this particular church (over 30 "at the bench" in Episcopal and Methodist churches), I've saved all of my yearly schedules, and when nothing would "pop in" I could always refer to that. The new pastor who begins on 10/5/03 is a "traditional Baptist" who has no use for the structured lectionary. He has sent me his preaching plan/scripture selection for October through December. I have looked up each scripture and, in some cases, an anthem immediately comes to mind. For most of them, however, I am drawing a complete blank! ;o( Over the years, I have noticed that many Malecki anthems note scriptural references someplace on the printed copy. (Of course I did not jot these down in one central location...never thought the church would become non-lectionary!) Anyway, the question is this: Since I am trying to avoid going back through all of our anthems, does anyone know of any online databases that contain scriptural allusions for particular anthems, or is there a "tool" here I have not found that allows one to enter a particular scripture then pops out suggested SATB anthems that relate to that scriptures? Malecki does not have such a resource...Googling has only revealed one at the Selah web site http://www.selahpub.com/Choral/ScripturalListing.html but I never order from Selah and they list only their own. Nope, I am not lazy...just overwhelmed by life as primary caregiver for my Dad, manager of our funeral home, owner of a home dtp business, choir director/organist, and the wife of a husband on academic leave in DC til 5/2004! Thanks in advance for an immediate reply to this. I have always felt that all service music should relate closely to the readings of the day/sermon topic to reinforce the message. Because all of my choir members are not always able to come to choir practice, I always produce a three-month schedule of anthems and that is what I need to do by Wednesday night! I've been tearing my hair out all week and am likely to be bald by Sunday! ;o) Thurletta M. Brown-Gavins
(back) Subject: Re: Saving Roosevelt Opus 408 (1890) From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:13:11 -0400 > To clarify the fate of Roosevelt opus 408 (with one rank originally built for Opus 400 [The Chicago Auditorium Theatre]), I stopped discussing it = on the chatlists because so many people were enraged, called it junk, and = used it as a springboard to aver that nobody wanted it because electronics were superior < Hi there, Was this organ in NYC? = -Nate = "The Apprentice"
(back) Subject: Re: THE Malotte From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:43:51 -0400 On 9/19/03 6:59 PM, "Malcolm Wechsler" <email@example.com> wrote: > I hope Alan will still talk to me. Any time I can think of something to say. And sometimes when I can=B9t. Alan (loves a good cry, too, but I=B9ll explain that later) Keyword: manipulation.
(back) Subject: Malotte From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:14:55 -0400 OK, I'll try to come clean. Like everybody else, I'm a product of my upbringing. Grew up in Norwegian Lutheran pietism; strong parish in Seattle, very good music (at least quantitatively). Two choirs, adult and youth, 45 voices each. Each sang Malotte at least annually. And loved it. Later, in college, was taught that "you're not supposed to like that saccharine crap." Bought that, I think. But I think quite a bit moderated in the 47 years since college = graduation. I'm moved to massive tear-flows in church fairly often. Just plain wiped out. Maybe would be by Malotte, even; I don't know; we don't do it. But what moves me is BETTER stuff (I think). I think it was Malcolm who mentioned "the right circumstances." For me, so far as I know, Malotte isn't that any more, for me. Some other things are. And when they virtually drop me on the floor, it's not predictable; it just happens. In short (if possible): My generation grew up being deliberately manipulated by saccharine music. It was part of pietistic culture. We didn't mind, because we didn't know any better. Now I/we do. Most of you grew up post-pietistic, and post-slush, and found (proper) sentiment in music as adults--too old to be deliberately manipulated, and thus can appreciate Malotte on a different level, in a different way, with = a better maturity. Compared to me, Malcolm is a kid. And never knew = pietism and its strictures on my humanity. So it's kind of personal, and deep. And Malotte is an icon of what I = resent about the 1930s and 40s. OK? Alan, the Warped
(back) Subject: Big, Biggs and Bigger From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Hello, Please don't lump me into the category of European critic. There are situations where a big organ is desirable, and America is the place to go in my experience. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- Peter Rodwell <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Europeans love criticizing the apparent American > love of all > things big __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Hello, That's just bad organ building! I have heard 20 stops pin me to the wall. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- bobelms <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Locally a North German style so called neo classic > organ was put in a > concert hall. It cannot be heard above an orchestra > or a large choir > and so it is little used. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:41:10 -0400 > I have heard 20 stops pin me to the wall. Greetings! I bet that ACCHO 100" reed could pin me to the ceiling. One time I was thinking as I was tuning 25" reeds (getting somewhat close to the = effective limit of my ear protection headphones) of what it would be like to tune those big fellas. (C: I have a pair of sound isolation headphones for listening that fit tightly, I might need to use those instead! Best regards, Nate "The Apprentice"
(back) Subject: Re: stop controls From: "M Fox" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:49:06 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> I had written: > >Lucky Glenda! I learned with stop tabs, but the first time I played on = an > organ with drawknobs on angled jambs (a wonderful 1928 Skinner 3/31 that > survives to this day, although perhaps in need of a good deal of attention) And Nate sensibly asked: > Good morning all! > > Where might this skinner be? (C: > > And the answer is: St. Patrick's Church, San Francisco. MAF
(back) Subject: Malotte and the Hollywood treatment From: "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:09:04 -0400 on 9/20/03 10:14 AM, Alan Freed at firstname.lastname@example.org wrote: > Most of you grew up post-pietistic, and post-slush, and found (proper) > sentiment in music as adults--too old to be deliberately manipulated, = and > thus can appreciate Malotte on a different level, in a different way, = with a > better maturity. Compared to me, Malcolm is a kid. And never knew = pietism > and its strictures on my humanity. > > So it's kind of personal, and deep. And Malotte is an icon of what I = resent > about the 1930s and 40s. on 9/20/03 12:44 AM, First Christian Church of Casey, IL at email@example.com wrote: > In other words, Randy, it speaks powerfully to millions of folk while = the > intelligentsia puts it down! ;>) > > As Abraham Lincoln said, "God must have loved the common man--He made so > many of them." > I'm glad, Dennis, that someone picked up on my Sallman allusion. David Morgan, professor of Christianity and the Arts at Valparaiso University, = and who has published an interesting study of Sallman's famous portrait of Christ that garnered a fair amount of press attention a year or so ago, = gave a fascinating lecture on the subject at Miami University yesterday, which = is what brought Sallman to mind. His portrait is just as manipulative as Malotte's music. I am grateful to you, Alan, for expressing the problem = of pietistic manipulation so well. Did you know that Malotte worked in Hollywood, where he wrote the music = for Walt Disney's award-winning cartoon "Ferdinand the Bull"? I have come across a couple of other vocal solos by Malotte that my baritone did in church this past year. On Mother's Day he sang Malotte's "To My Mother" = and then in June his "Twenty-Third Psalm." So you see I am also guilty of engaging in pietistic manipulation by programming such music! That's what comes of being something of a cynic in such matters. (As an aside, and because Alan briefly alluded to the flag issue in an earlier post, there is no way I am going to be able to think of the ELCA church where I work, much as I love the people there, as an authentic Christian church as long as they place the American flag next to the = altar. It's a church all right, but a church of the American national religion, which is a heresy that has insidiously subverted the true church in our land.) Morgan made in his lecture yesterday the point that American Protestants = in the 1940s and 1950s criticized Catholics for the supposed idolatry of venerating statues of Mary and the saints while they themselves were, and = in many places still are, more genuinely idolatrous in their veneration of Sallman's portrait, truly convinced that it is the true image of Christ. Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Atlantic City and friends (LONG) From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Hello, Nate (the apprentice) obviously has respect for the craftsmen of the past, which is a fine sentiment worthy of the restorer. However, it matters little whether we look around the USA, the UK, Australia, Germany and many other countries, the concept of the symphonic organ strayed far too far away from the "classical" (in its wider sense) disposition and integrity. Here we are not talking "baroque" versus "romantic". Rather, we are talking about the concept of the organ as a symphony orchestra, rather than the organ as an instrument of musical architecture. I had this brought sharply into focus at Doesburg in Holland recently, where the counterpoint of Bach and Reger just vanished under a welter of impressive, and actually quite beautiful, heaviness and romantic sonority. Unfortunately, that same heaviness of tone and the excessive reigning in of upperwork, means that the Walcker organ (1914) at Doesburg actually takes away a great deal from the music of Reger which was contemporary to the organ. Once an instrument starts to degrade the music, it is time for change, which is exactly what happened; albeit in a rather extreme way from which we are all still suffering musically. As a musician, I believe that "we" as a group of people, should be the ones who decide what is MUSICALLY desirable, rather than organ-builders who may not necessarily appreciate things in quite the same way. Of course, this is not to say that there are not some superb organ-builder/musicians around....there are! When I questioned the organ of Atlantic City and others, I more or less anticipated the responses we would receive on pipechat. There is a growing tendency to pour scorn on "classical" organs as expensive mistakes and unmusical freak-shows, and to uphold the symphonic organ tradition (Skinner, Arthur Harrison in the UK.,Hill, Norman & Beard etc etc) as something better or more desirable. However, let us pause for a moment to ask a couple of questions. Could the Mander organ of St.Ignatius Loyola, NY, ever have been created without the work of organ reformers in Germany, England, America, Holland and elsewhere? Could G Donald Harrison have achieved so much in America without the inspiration of organs built by T C Lewis in the UK? By the highest standards, the St.Iggies' organ is a fine instrument which deserves a special place in the ongoing story of quality organ-building around the world. Going back in time to around the end of the 19th century, we see a remarkable world.....not just America or Northern Europe. (We must ALWAYS include Japan). This was the age of extraordinary technology, and anyone who has ever looked at powered looms, hose-making machinery and other textile-making machines, will know what I am talking about....absolute genius in many instances. It was also an age of growing popular culture, which included a whole sweep of musical genres, from the Black musicians of America who swept the world briefly, to the roaring 20's which had the whole world tapping their feet. As a sort of counter-blast to this "foul and degrading music", the educators and reformers sought to bring "good" music to people as a means of refining their souls. (God knows, I would prefer Scott Joplin to Meyerbeer!) Around this time, the organ was dragged into the role of substitute orchestra, and which at its apogee, resulted in the cinema organ. However, when a classical organ is little more than a downgraded Wurlitzer, and not half the fun, I start to question the efficacy of the genre. It is my view that even a romantic style instrument should be essentially classical in style and disposition. Once an instrument is scattered far and wide around a large building, it merely becomes an impressive din which can easily destroy attempts at music-making. Perhaps the unique size of the Atlantic City Convention Hall and the Midmer-Losh organ are a special case.....I don't know. However, one thing I do know is that Liverpool Cathedral here in the UK, remains the largest enclosed space in the world; if not in actual ground area, then certainly by volume of air inside it. I believe St John-the-Divine is of almost identical internal volume and, if it is ever completed, will probably exceed Liverpool comfortably. Liverpool Cathedral has an organ of a mere 200 or so stops and about 10,000 pipes should anyone care to count them all some day. The organ of St.John-the-Divine is considerably smaller than Liverpool.Passau Cathedral in Bavaria has about the same size of organ, but in a much smaller building, but is really three or four organs stitched together by one console. The organ of Liverpool Cathedral, and also the organ of St.John-the-Divine, have considerable integrity, and apart from remote control Trumpets, are more or less in one area of the building. The Crystal Cathedral approach is very different!! My point was quite simple.....you don't need masses of stops and unlimited ranks to make a lot of volume. However, I REALLY DO HOPE that the AC organ could be restored fully for one very simple reason. Like the power-looms and the intricate machinery of the past, it represents a fascinating period in history in musical terms. This was the great period when all sorts of experiments took place.....huge wooden airplanes (the Howard Hughes financed flying-boat), the Hindenburg and the Hoover Dam; the latter so big that it bent the Earth's mantle!! The Midmer-Losh organ, and many others (West Point especially), mark a point when organists and organ-builders experimented with sound and, in the process, created certain things of great beauty and impressive sonority. The Liverpool organ still has the power to enthrall and rivet the listener to the spot....a thrilling instrument by any standards. But lest we forget, the classical principles still remain unalterable if music is to be made as it should be, rather than presented as musical impressionism. The greatest power of all, is the power of music to move people, and in order to do that, we need musical instruments rather than grand experiments or sonic follies. The 7-manual Midmer-Losh, like Atlantic City itself, is both Unicorn and White Elephant, but I would love to be able to go there, put on the shorts, ride the roller-coaster, eat a candy-floss and enjoy the absurdity of it all. Doing something crazy with your friends can be a great way to relax. "What music? We're only here for the sound!" Regards, Colin Mitchell UK __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Big, Biggs and Bigger From: "M Fox" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:56:14 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 7:19 AM Subject: Big, Biggs and Bigger > Hello, > > Please don't lump me into the category of European > critic. > > There are situations where a big organ is desirable, > and America is the place to go in my experience. > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > > --- Peter Rodwell <email@example.com> wrote: > > Europeans love criticizing the apparent American > > love of all > > things big > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Administration: mailto:email@example.com > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > >
(back) Subject: Re: Anthem Selection Tool (long) From: "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:37:59 -0400 on 9/20/03 8:02 AM, Thurletta Brown-Gavins at TMBROWN@vance.net wrote: > > Thanks in advance for an immediate reply to this. I have always felt > that all service music should relate closely to the readings of the > day/sermon topic to reinforce the message. Because all of my choir > members are not always able to come to choir practice, I always produce > a three-month schedule of anthems and that is what I need to do by > Wednesday night! I've been tearing my hair out all week and am likely to > be bald by Sunday! ;o) You would probably find the following web site of use: http://satucket.com/lectionary/When_Will_It_Be_Read.htm "WHEN WILL IT BE READ? "This compilation by The Rev. Richard Losch of Livingston, Ala., gives the Sunday readings keyed to Bible verses. If you have a Bible verse and want = to know when (or if) it will be used as part of the regular Sunday readings, you can look it up in the table below. The readings follow the lectionary = of the Episcopal Church in the U. S. The readings are on a three year cycle, = so the letter A, B, or C, at the end of the reference indicates the year of = the cycle in which that Bible passage is used. Citations in brackets are alternatives for the day." I do not agree with you, however, that the anthem should always "reinforce the message." That sounds too much like Madison Avenue manipulation to = me. The Christian message is richer than the narrow focus of one preacher on = any given Sunday. And it deserves to be heard as well. Why couldn't the = anthem complement the message? In the lectionary, at least, one has the option = of choosing an anthem based on one of the scripture passages that the = preacher may not necessarily be sermonizing on but that, thanks to the wisdom of = the lectionary compilers, does complement it, is related in some way to the scripture on which he chooses to preach. Unfortunately, I suppose that = your neo-orthodox Baptist preacher is probably not going to allow four = scripture passages to b e read each Sunday (Old Testament, Psalm, Epistle, Gospel), since he considers his agenda more important than God's. Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Thomas Heywood in Utica, NY From: "Stephen Best" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:07:31 -0400 Hi everyone, Next Friday, September 26, at 7:30, Australia's Thomas Heywood will perform at First Presbyterian Church, 1605 Genesee Street, Utica, NY. His program is different than most of us are accustomed to, but it's typical for Heywood, and I can guarantee that the performance will be dazzlng: G. Verdi: Overture to "Nabucco" J.S. Bach: Concerto for Two Violins (first movement) W.T. Best: Concert Fantasia on a Welsh March ("Men of Harlech") H. Berlioz: Marche de Rakoczi N. Rimsky-Korsakov: Flight of the Bumblebee E. Lemare: Concert Fantasia on Bizet's "Carmen" INTERMISSION G. Verdi: Grand March from "Aida" G. Gariboldi: Priere F. Schubert: Military March No. 1 J. Brahms: Hungarian Dance No. 5 E. Elgar: Salut d'Amour J. Sibelius: Finlandia The organ is a 62 rank Casavant in a great room for music making, and we have a large screen TV so you can see the organist as well as hear him. If you're anywhere withing driving distance, this is well worth the effort...a real "don't miss"! Steve Best in Utica, NY