PipeChat Digest #3999 - Sunday, September 21, 2003 Thank you, Monty & Malcolm by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Atlantic City and friends (LONG) by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> RE: OFF-TOPIC: preaching, and lectionaries by "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Hugeness, Hugicity, Hugiosity, Hugiciousness by <TubaMagna@aol.com> stop controls by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Re: OFF-TOPIC: preaching, and lectionaries by "Walter Greenwood" <email@example.com> Malotte etc by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Atlantic City by "F Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: OFF-TOPIC: preaching, and lectionaries by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Disney, liturgy, Malotte - Oh My! by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Catharine Crozier by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Re: Atlantic City by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: organ plus by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Malotte and the Hollywood treatment by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Thank you, Monty & Malcolm From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:00:17 EDT It is good to hear that a man who sells pipe organs and one who = recently commissioned an organ come to the same conclusions regarding organ prices, = especially since they are both happily employed as church musicians. Our firm's policy is to give the client two specifications, one = usually being what I feel might be "ideal" for the music program and the room, the = other being a slightly distilled version, from which are omitted what some = might feel are luxuries. If and when we are selected, the specification is = fine-tuned. In a recently-signed project (due for installation next year), we were = dealing with a very small, eleven-stop specification on slider = soundboards. The consultant asked if the Swell Spitzgeigen and its undulant could both be = made available on the Great, and we agreed to do it, with the understanding = that placing these stops on unit windchests would add to the cost, for which = the consultant gave the go-ahead. I then suggested that we add some color in the form of two additional ranks in the Swell (a Nazard and a Tierce), to which he agreed -- as long = as we would extend the Swell 8' Trumpet down to 16' as a Double Trumpet, and = make it available in the Pedal at 16', 8', and 4', to which I agreed. His next request was to add a low-pressure device so that the Pedal 16'/8'/4' Bourdon unit could be used as a Lieblich Gedeckt, since he = wanted two different volume levels available. I voiced (and finished) a very strong = Veto to that proposal, and told him that I could extend either one of the 8' open stops downward -- the enclosed Swell Spitzgeigen, or the Great Open = Diapason, which was already on a unit chest in the bass because it was in the = facade. He chose the Diapason, and the 16' octave will be built with Haskell = re-entrant tubes and actually speak from within the organ case. With each addition or alteration, we came back to the client's = committee with an exact figure based upon what it would cost us to add that = particular feature. Likewise, when pricing anything for anybody, we delineate and = price each option in the proposal (bone and rosewood keys in lieu of = high-quality composite; adding the bottom octave to an undulating rank; one style of = console versus another; highly burnished case pipes vs. stencilled). While it is good for a church to give a builder some guidelines as to their budget, it is really best to design the best organ for the room, and = see where things go. If an organist tells the builder that there is a two = million dollar gift waiting in the wings, and to discard the present organ, yet = the Warden of the Vestry tells you that they don't have two pennies to rub = together but know they need to do SOMETHING, one of them is wrong. If that sounds farfetched, it is not. That recently has happened twice in this area, and = neither church has an organ at this point. The two worst criteria for organ selection are price and rumor. It is just as dangerous to want the highest-priced organ for the prestige as it = is to go for the cheapest junk out there. Likewise, speak to a builder and play = their most recent work and talk to their most recent clients who created = conditions under which the organs could be completed and cared for. Then move on to = your musical goals, and you may just find that your dreams come true in the = least expected way, with the least expected craftsman. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City and friends (LONG) From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:01:37 -0400 >If you like the Atlantic City organ, Get yourself the two books on it >for 1/2 price at Organ Historical Society. Offer good til 9-30-03 >$25 a piece instead of $45 and $46. Get both and drool. I just got = mine. >Go to the OHS site and order them. Greetings, I indeed have the book and the CD from the OHS. (C: If we take a = look at the level 4 and 5 swell chests on page 122 and the stentor = mixture chest on page 132 (among others) we can clearly see beautiful = primary magnets and disc valves right out in the open, front and center! = (C: Has anyone on the list ever cracked open a Midmer-Losh chest? = -Nate = "The Apprentice"
(back) Subject: RE: OFF-TOPIC: preaching, and lectionaries From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:08:57 +0800 I come from a Methodist background where the lectionary was not used by the preacher, who gave us 15 minutes of evangelically based sermon afetr a New Testament and an Old Testament "lesson", and who chose four hymns that gave us a good sing. The tendency now on the part of some preachers is to base the music on the lectionary, and give us about 25 minutes of lectionary based preaching often dull, dull dull! Give me the former any day; the hymns were sung with gusto and sincerity. The sermon had fire (not literally) and all went away having gained something from the service. We seem to have lost something along the track somewhere. We were not a liturgical church either. The order of service usually consisted of four hymns, anthems if a choir, voluntaries by the organist, readings, prayers and the sermon. No liturgy except for the communion service which was based on the Anglican format. One minister I played for required soft organ music during the gospel reading. Bob Elms. ---- Original Message ---- From: firstname.lastname@example.org To: email@example.com Subject: RE: OFF-TOPIC: preaching, and lectionaries Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:57:17 -0700 >Well, it took two of Bruce's favorite topics to bring me out of >hiding >(grin). > >(1) Preaching should be ABOLISHED, at least in liturgical churches. >If >you do the LITURGY with attention and devotion (and ALL the >associated >music), there's nothing more to say. >>
(back) Subject: Hugeness, Hugicity, Hugiosity, Hugiciousness From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:24:35 EDT Organs are designed for the (perceived) needs of the music program, = with a great deal of input from the organist who has the bench at the time of commission. Within that context, they must be adequate for the size and = acoustic of the room they serve. An organ can be built or evolve to enormous dimensions and still have many of the stops in the wrong places at the wrong pitches for accurate performance of the literature. They are going to be beautiful or hideous = in their sound in accordance with the abilities of the builders. Some large organs have been added to so much that they lost their original personality, and are simply vulgar, loud, and large. I know of at = least two organs of over 300 ranks which are known only for their size, as = curiosities, but are not considered great musical instruments. One of them was once considered very important, but has been swallowed up and altered, losing = its identetity and significance. Building and voicing a large organ really is NOT easier than a small = one. I remember one four-manual that I played once (the fifth manual keyboard = was a phantom, playing all the unit stops from the other manuals), and I = always heard comments about how beautiful certain stops were, despite the = unappealing nature of the bulk of the organ. They were the few Skinner stops revoiced = from the previous organ, which was significantly smaller. No matter what the = size, every stop should make a musical contribution, not just add "fibre." A large organ need not be played all at once. Listen to Tom Murray, = and how he shows off the exquisite sound of the seemingly endless number of = stops in the large instruments upon which he records. The beauty of organ design is its pallette. When that kid came to elementary school with a box of 48 Crayolas (with built-in sharpener, the = creep), those with the 6-color boxes felt a bit down. Some resented it and = brooded, others skipped dessert for a few months, saving their extra lunch money, = and finally got THEIR 48-crayon set. And if you think that's a dumb analogy, = you can't borrow my crayons. And if you make fun of me, I'll tell the teacher. So THERE. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City ..
(back) Subject: stop controls From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:27:42 -0400 Good evening all! Check out the pics of this console!!! http://www.orgelsite.nl/kerken12/oestringen.htm Best wishes, Nate "The Apprentice"
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC: preaching, and lectionaries From: "Walter Greenwood" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:34:06 -0400 Good to have you back, Bud. I play at a UMC, and preaching is certainly = the centerpiece of the service. However, on many occasions after the choir = has delivered one major work or another, something on the scale of the Faure' Requiem or a Haydn Mass, our senior minister has ascended the pulpit, said "Thank you, Choir. I have absolutely nothing to add to that.", and = retaken his seat. It's nice to have a preacher who can give it up like that. -WG > <email@example.com> wrote: > > Well, it took two of Bruce's favorite topics to bring me out of hiding > (grin). > > (1) Preaching should be ABOLISHED, at least in liturgical churches. If > you do the LITURGY with attention and devotion (and ALL the associated > music), there's nothing more to say. > > You've HEARD the Word chanted or read; you've RECEIVED the Word > Incarnate in Holy Communion; there's nothing to add. And poor preaching > often DISTRACTS from those two experiences. ....
(back) Subject: Malotte etc From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:09:29 -0400 Andres Gunther email@example.com Dear List, I grew up with Hay Malotte, Flaxington Harker and other similar author's sacred songs in quantity since the presbyterian Church in Caracas where Daddy was organist and Choirmaster was founded and then leaded by US american Pastors for several decades. The music repertoire was 'imported' from there - and hold on until 1972 when first quality native repertoire became available, and the youth started to demand it. The discussed Pater Noster was a hands-on favourite at weddings (alike the (in)famous Shubert-Ave Maria for the catholics). Every time I recall the Pater Noster (the score still is my library) I smell flowers and realize bright lights and elegant people. Perhaps I am a nut - but I still have a weakness for this kind of sacred music. And it's no sentimentalism from me. I could be wrong in my appreciation but: don't some composers of that time show a sort of french romantic influence? I am not acquainted enough with the history of early = to mid 20th cty US-american church music, and it's too long ago to recall accuratedly this old repertoire to make an affirmation in this however. Cheers Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:18:55 -0500 Hi, Colin: You wrote: > Hello, > > That's just bad organ building! > > I have heard 20 stops pin me to the wall. ??? In a room that seats 20,000 people? F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC: preaching, and lectionaries From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:28:24 -0400 On 9/20/03 8:34 PM, "Walter Greenwood" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > However, on many occasions after the choir has delivered one major work = or > another, something on the scale of the Faure' Requiem or a Haydn Mass, = our > senior minister has ascended the pulpit, said "Thank you, Choir. I have > absolutely nothing to add to that.", and retaken his seat. It's nice to = have > a preacher who can give it up like that. It takes cojones to do that. ESPECIALLY in a Methodist Church. I applaud that pastor. It happens routinely among Lutherans (etc.?) on Palm Sunday. After the reading of the Passion, what can one add? Even Luther said something like "That is the ultimate sermon." But a Methodist would = really be laying it on the line! I really admire the guy. Alan
(back) Subject: Disney, liturgy, Malotte - Oh My! From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:03:40 -0500 (CDT) Weeeee...what a train ride :) I'd truly like to hear architects' reaction to the Disney design. We organists are not capable of impartial judgment. I'd also be interested in a psychological slant - and I am dead serious. My first reaction was: Disney=3Dcartoons. I thought the architect was making fun at our expense. Oh well. Using the liturgy/lectionary for preaching and planning music seems so normal to me after all these years. There's a wealth of material to choose from such as the prayers for the day, the psalmody, gospel verse or communion verse, that there's no need to get in a rut. The point of the lectionary cycle and liturgical year is to give a rhythm to the church year - an ebb and flow, etc.. Bad preaching has nothing to do with being slaves to the lectionary, but everything to do with not being capable of connecting scripture with people's lives. Good liturgical preaching probably is harder because the preacher has to make the readings relevant through the homily. In non-liturgical preaching, the preacher can pick out the scripture that he/she wants to use to support points. Yes, we are there to worship God, but we are also there to hear God speak to us. General praise always has a place in worship, but liturgical worship has a bigger palette than that. And Alan's comments about Malotte were exquisitely put....he must deliver some great liturgical homilies :) I love bitter sweet chocolate, but know that eating too much of it is not healthy. Hmmm, time to look in the cupboards...
(back) Subject: Catharine Crozier From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:38:30 -0400 Just got this forward.... Dear Friends - I am writing to let you know that Catharine Crozier died peacefully last night in Portland, Oregon, at the age of 89. She had a severe stroke this past Monday, which apparently originated from a blood clot, leaving her = with a paralyzed right side and no ability to communicate. As you may know, = she moved last December to a lovely retirement community in Portland; they = acted quickly to get her to the hospital, but she immediately developed = pneumonia. She had superb medical care, but the prognosis from the start was that she could not regain any mobility or speech. Because she had requested that = no heroic measures be taken in such a circumstance, the doctors kept her comfortable until her death. Her passing is a great loss to all who knew her or who ever heard her memorable performances. Following cremation, a blessing of her ashes will be held at Trinity Cathedral in Portland before they are sent to be buried with her husband, Harold Gleason. A memorial service/concert is being planned for the = evening of January 26th at Trinity Cathedral in Portland. Donations in her memory can be made to the Music Endowment Fund, Trinity Cathedral, 147 NW 19th Avenue, Portland OR 97209. The Cathedral will present a yearly organ = recital in her memory, so if you wish to contribute directly to this you can = notify the Cathedral of this designation. If you have any questions you can = direct them to John McElliott (email@example.com) or to me (firstname.lastname@example.org). Sincerely, Karen McFarlane
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:56:05 -0400 Bob, Not much use has ben made of the AC organ in the last 30 years becuase it hasn't been working and has been unusable=2E =20 Andrew Original Message: ----------------- From: bobelms bobelms@westnet=2Ecom=2Eau Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:06:18 +0800 To: jlspeller@mindspring=2Ecom, pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Atlantic City Possibly the most important factor is the use to whch the organ is being put=2E What use is being made of the AC organ, and what use has been made of it in the last 30 years? Locally a North German style so called neo classic organ was put in a concert hall=2E It cannot be heard above an orchestra or a large choir and so it is little used=2E What a pity! Concerts using orchestra and/or large choir and organ are held in a University Hall which has an organ of similar size but much more impact=2E It does not pretend to be what it is not! The concert hall organ sounds very nice but it is of little use for the purpose for which it was intended=2E Bob Elms=2E ---- Original Message ---- From: jlspeller@mindspring=2Ecom To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Atlantic City Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:40:49 -0500 >Colin Mitchell wrote: > >>Hello, >> >>I hate discussing size for the sake of it=2E >> >>However, the Atlantic City Midmer-Losh is SO enormous >>and SO musically excessive, it is difficult to be >>neutral about it=2E >> >It is not all that enormous when you consider the size of the=20 >building=20 >it is in -- about ten times the size of the Royal Albert Hall in=20 >London=2E =20 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E
(back) Subject: RE: organ plus From: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:01:53 -0400 That really depends on the piece=2E If you are playing the Poulenc concer= to then it is obvioulsy the lead=2E If you are playing the organ part in "Th= e Planets" then it is obvioulsy an accompanying instrument=2E And in most oratorios it is a continuo part which is obviously an accompanying role=2E= Andrew Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: TIPWIGYOKSTTZRC Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:31:23 -0400 (EDT) To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: organ plus In a message dated 9/20/2003 12:46:31 AM Central Daylight Time,=20 Pologaptommy@aol=2Ecom writes: Should the the organ be an "accompanying" instrument when playing with=20= orchestras, or should the organ still be in the lead? Use your ears always=2E You might find that a beautiful meat and potatoes= 8=20 foot principal blends nicely with those instruments-if you are accompanyin= g=20 anyway=2E Try to keep it simple and let the music happen=2E An organ bui= lt (with an=20 ideal budget) with accompaniment of orchestra, brass quartet, or large=20 congregation in mind, should have the power to completely overwhelm everything=2E I=20 also feel that the brass players should be musical enough to play at a proper=20 dynamic with the organ, so as not to bury it=2E The organist's best trick= is to=20 get loud only once or twice, so that everyone listening smiles, jumps, and= begs=20 for more when you play tutti or throw on the 32=2E Gregory=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E
(back) Subject: RE: Malotte and the Hollywood treatment From: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:09:49 -0400 When I think of Malotte I think of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir=2E That is= one of their signature pieces and everytime I see them on TV it seems that= they sing it=2E Andrew Original Message: ----------------- From: Randolph Runyon runyonr@muohio=2Eedu Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:09:04 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Malotte and the Hollywood treatment on 9/20/03 10:14 AM, Alan Freed at acfreed0904@earthlink=2Enet wrote: > Most of you grew up post-pietistic, and post-slush, and found (proper) > sentiment in music as adults--too old to be deliberately manipulated, an= d > thus can appreciate Malotte on a different level, in a different way, with a > better maturity=2E Compared to me, Malcolm is a kid=2E And never knew pietism > and its strictures on my humanity=2E >=20 > So it's kind of personal, and deep=2E And Malotte is an icon of what I resent > about the 1930s and 40s=2E on 9/20/03 12:44 AM, First Christian Church of Casey, IL at kzrev@rr1=2Ene= t wrote: > In other words, Randy, it speaks powerfully to millions of folk while th= e > intelligentsia puts it down! ;>) >=20 > As Abraham Lincoln said, "God must have loved the common man--He made so= > many of them=2E" >=20 I'm glad, Dennis, that someone picked up on my Sallman allusion=2E David Morgan, professor of Christianity and the Arts at Valparaiso University, a= nd who has published an interesting study of Sallman's famous portrait of Christ that garnered a fair amount of press attention a year or so ago, ga= ve a fascinating lecture on the subject at Miami University yesterday, which = is what brought Sallman to mind=2E His portrait is just as manipulative as Malotte's music=2E I am grateful to you, Alan, for expressing the problem= of pietistic manipulation so well=2E Did you know that Malotte worked in Hollywood, where he wrote the music fo= r Walt Disney's award-winning cartoon "Ferdinand the Bull"? I have come across a couple of other vocal solos by Malotte that my baritone did in church this past year=2E On Mother's Day he sang Malotte's "To My Mother"= and then in June his "Twenty-Third Psalm=2E" So you see I am also guilty of engaging in pietistic manipulation by programming such music! That's what= comes of being something of a cynic in such matters=2E (As an aside, and because Alan briefly alluded to the flag issue in an earlier post, there is no way I am going to be able to think of the ELCA church where I work, much as I love the people there, as an authentic Christian church as long as they place the American flag next to the altar= =2E It's a church all right, but a church of the American national religion, which is a heresy that has insidiously subverted the true church in our land=2E) Morgan made in his lecture yesterday the point that American Protestants i= n the 1940s and 1950s criticized Catholics for the supposed idolatry of venerating statues of Mary and the saints while they themselves were, and = in many places still are, more genuinely idolatrous in their veneration of Sallman's portrait, truly convinced that it is the true image of Christ=2E= Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio=2Eedu "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E