PipeChat Digest #4007 - Monday, September 22, 2003
RE: Atlantic City Organs
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Naff Registration(s)
  by "Bruce Miles" <bruce@gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk>
Proposal to settle Epiphany Miracles
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
Re: Voice Question
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Monstrance processions
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Disney organ & the poor
  by "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org>
Overture Hall, Madison, WI
  by "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com>
RE: Good Mornin
  by "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net>
RE: Protestant
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
American Choir Divisions
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: Atlantic City
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
Re: Voice Question
  by "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com>
RE: Atlantic City Organs and the hungry
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
RE: American Choir Divisions
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>

(back) Subject: RE: Atlantic City Organs From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:44:20 -0400   > Ron 'et al',   > Whilst I can understand your sentiments regarding the upkeep of the = Atlantic City organs, if there is $100, 000, 000 being made available, I would wish it to be spent on a = much more worthy cause.=20   > There are whole nations in the Third World countries that could = benefit much more than the rebuilding of a couple of organs. In the = United States alone there are millions of people who are on the poverty = line, and you are suggesting that a couple of oversized instruments be = placed before that need.   > Let's get our priorities right.   Would it really cost $100 million? Where did that figure come from? Try = taking off a zero, I think you'd be closer.   Let's look at a few other peculiar projects: indexes to songbooks and = other classes of publications or special collections in libraries and = museums, musical and otherwise. As a librarian, I still have recourse = from time to time to the direct or indirect results of this work = underwritten by the government. =20   This is a luxury, one might object, a waste of taxpayer dollars, of = marginal utility, scandalous to fund "when millions of people are = starving."   The fact is, however, that this work was done in the 1930s, and aside = from the benefit it gave to students and scholars the world over, it was = undertaken *primarily* to *keep* people from starving!   Is there some reason that the same rationale would not apply to a = renovation of the Atlantic City organ?   It may not appear in the Constitution of the U.S., but for at least = several hundred years the preservation of monuments has been a generally = accepted responsiblity of governments in civilized countries. It = corresponds nicely to the concept of a nation-state: if the state = embodies or a nation, then it must care for the artifacts that express = and symbolize the nation's identity. In sheer mechanical terms, pipe = organs have always been among the most impressive and complex of devices = in terms of the number of moving parts placed under the direct control = of a single individual. As such, organs have often appeared in the most = important exhibitions of industry and technology in the 19th and early = 20th century-- from which period the Atlantic City organ dates. As one = of the two largest of its kind, and built in that era, it stands = therefore as a superlative example of something in which Americans have = always prided themselves. In that sense it is a monument and deserves = to be maintained.   But given an administration whose Secretary of Defense, asked about the = pillage of a middle-eastern museum containing priceless artifacts dating = from the very dawn of civilization, likens this catastrophe with perfect = equanimity to a class of children's kicking up their heels after being = let out of school, our hope is presumably too forlorn for further = consideration.    
(back) Subject: Re: Naff Registration(s) From: "Bruce Miles" <bruce@gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:05:57 +0100   Harry et al,   Well, as with most congregational hymns the detail of the registration is = of secondary importance to getting the phrasing and articulation right and of course a suitable overall volume level. And also not as important as the rythmn and tempo.   So how to I play this hymn ? Tempo 120. Strictly in four (lean slightly on every fourth beat) with a discernible but not too blatant swing. A long sweeping legato phrase for each complete line. For the few commas in a = line just the barest hint of shortening the previous note, perhaps in the = melody part only, but without any disturbance whatever in the rythm. My pet hate = - a major hiccup wherever there's a comma.   Oh yes, and how I register it ? Conventionally I suppose. Great Diapasons = to Swell with a bright 4 ft and some string tone to add interest to subtle volume changes. Lead in - solo on Great. First verse f, Great to Octave swell fairly well open. Second verse. mf. Octave in, add Swell 4 ft = Gemshorn for brightness. Third verse f - ff. Great to Octave. From line 5 crescendo add Fifteenth (we haven't got one so I add the 16 ft and play an octave = up). Possibly Mixture and Swell reed(s). Before the final line, a slight hesitation, just little slower then a final rall.   I tend to change the mood and overall tonality between hymns rather than within them, unless there's a very definite change of mood. It does depend on what you've got and instruments are so different you've really got to = do your own thing. The important thing to remember is that the words and the singing are what matters - the organ is in a supporting (and perhaps encouraging) role. It must never distract.   An afterthought - I wonder if the hymn 'For the fruits of His Creation' = and the tune 'East Acklam' is known in the US ? (That's what this is about, it seems to have been edited out.   Enough.   Regards to all.   Bruce Miles       website - http://www.gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk/index.html   ----- Original Message ----- From: "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 1:14 PM Subject: Re: Naff Registration(s)     > > How did you register the hymn ? > > Harry > [a.k.a. musicman] > > -----Original Message-----( Much Edited) > From: Bruce Miles <bruce@gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk> > To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Date: 22 September 2003 08:36 > Subject: Re: Hymn Registration > > > >I think it's prefereable to empahasise the 'Thanks be to God' phrase = just > >with phrasing. After all, it occurs three times in each verse and the > effect > >of a registration change each time is a bit - well - naff. > >IMHO, I hasten to add. > >Bruce Miles > >St John's Methodist, Market Weighton (not very) near York.    
(back) Subject: Proposal to settle Epiphany Miracles From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:54:55 -0400   Perhaps on topic, for a change:   I think that Christopher Wordsworth's (1807-1885) hymn may define it.   1. Songs of thankfulness and praise, Jesus, Lord, to thee we raise. MANIFESTED BY THE STAR TO THE SAGES from afar. . . .   2. MANIFEST AT JORDAN'S STREAM, Prophet, Priest, and King supreme . . . And as CANA'S WEDDING GUEST, in thy Godhead manifest . . . . changing = water into wine.   3. MANIFEST IN MAKING WHOLE PALSIED LIMBS . . . Etc.   We use the tune SALZBURG, by Christoph Anton.   So Wise Men, Baptism, Cana, and healing. That's four. Best I can do.   Alan (OK, it's not easy; but be glad you're not a benighted Fundy)        
(back) Subject: Protestant From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:38:05 -0400   I apologize for my digression into off-topic-ness. Perhaps it will bring it back if I ask whether there were proper (whatever you wish to make of the word) organs in England at the time of Cranmer or before. I suspect that if there were, they were rather primitive by our standards; I seem to recall that even at the time of Mendelssohn english organ-building was not as well developed as continental european. At a minimum the pedal divisions weren't much to speak of. History being impossibly boring to me, usually, I've never bothered to investigate the question, so perhaps others can supply an answer, and comment on whether the "reformation" was influenced by, or had an influence on, organs of the time.   Carrying the question forward to America, my impression is that most American builders of revolutionary times also didn't build much in the way of pedal divisions (who were they, by the way? Appleton?). I seem to recall that even Ernest Skinner, himself, thought large pedal divisions not worth the expense (or maybe it was his customers). The 102-year old Hook & Hastings I play on has only 3 pedal stops: 16' Bourdon and Diapaison and 8' Violoncello (!). No duplexing, even when the switching system was updated (according to Barbara Owen, this is one of H&H's first electric action organs). Interestingly enough, the pedal lines come through nicely when coupled with the swell & choir.   Another question: this organ's choir division is UNenclosed. Was that typical of Hook & Hastings?   Inquiring minds want to know.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: Re: Voice Question From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:59:31 -0500   Hello, Peter: You ask an interesting question: > Incidentally, why don't two (or more) singers singing in > unison celeste like organ pipes? That's one of the things we work on diligently in rehearsal to prevent. We need every singer on the same pitch. Of course, it is no more "on the same exact pitch" than are string players. The result is a beautiful chorus effect when all singers are well tuned, but that is still never quite exactly on the same pitch all the time every time. Also, your comment about vibrato: > I had always assumed (admittedly without investigating > the matter) that a singer's vibrato was some sort of > automatic effect due to the voice not being able to hold > a note exactly but "seeking" around it, i.e., as the > singer's brain detected that the note was drifting off > key, it made the appropriate adjustment but over-compensated. My own experience counters the overdrive-and-compensate approach. It is the results of breath support, dynamics, and mental control to "wobble" the pitch. You can do it when whistling, as well. Some people learn the vibrato effect; some learn to tremulate. Joan Baez did not have a vibrato; her voice tremulated. I watched a Marilyn Horn interview one evening on PBS. She was describing the adjustments she had to make in her tone production to sing the songs of Aaron Copland. She is a tremendous opera singer in the grandest of styles. Her vibrato is very wide. However, to "lighten up" for the Copland songs, she had to narrow it to keep in character with the songs. One of her best roles on stage is Turindot, so you get the idea of the kind of voice that makes her a very good living. <grins> The vibrato can be narrowed completely, at will by the singer. I sang a series of sea-songs on a recital while in school. On the ending of the one of the epic songs, it tells of tragedy at sea when the mast is struck by lightning in the midst of a storm. The scene is huge, bombastic. The dynamics are fortissimo. As the scene crests its climax at the lightning strike, the safe haven of the ship becomes a funeral bier as it slips beneath the sea. I lowered the dynamics to mezzopiano and removed all of the vibrato, ...to a straight tone as the text described the scene of death. It was very effective. Name of the song was "Were I a Pirate of the Sea." You guys are bringing back lots of old, ...very old memories. <grins> F. Richard Burt ..  
(back) Subject: Re: Monstrance processions From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:43:58 EDT   David,   Some Anglicans certainly consider themselves "protestant", and strictly speaking, that is accurate, IMHO. I doubt, however, that many Anglicans = who attend parishes that practice Eucharistic processions, Adoration and Benediction consider THEMSELVES to be protestant. I, for instance, consider myself an =   Anglo-Catholic, not an "Anglo-Protestant". Of course, I happen to approve = of adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and privately hold the opinion that the = Bishop of Rome is "primus inter pares"--which is certainly a very ancient, = pre-"imperial papacy", orthodox belief not entirely out of line with Anglo-Catholicism. = The "Anglo-Protestant" would be quick to point out that "cookie worship" (a derisive term we've probably all heard from some evangelical = Episcopalians--who are entirely entitled to their opinion) is in violation of the 39 articles. = Yet, it does persist in some Tractarian parishes--even among "prayer book" = (liberal) Anglo-Catholics.   What I think is especially accurate is the idea that some other = "protestant" churches are really better called "reformed". Despite it's association = with Calvin and Zwingli, "reformed" is an adjective which properly belongs to Lutheranism. From my reading of Luther, his real goal was the = "reformation" of the Latin Church and he considered himself to be a Catholic even on his = deathbed. His essay on Marian devotion and the Rosary is seldom read, but sheds = quite a bit of light on his essential "catholic" orthodoxy. Today, I know a great = many "high" Lutherans who consider themselves to be "catholics". I do not = agree, however, that "reformed" applies to all protestant denominations. A better =   adjective might be "devolved" churches--and I mean no disrespect in using = this term; only it's literal definition.   As for the ordination issues mentioned by David B., I suggest that we = discuss these things in the context of fora specifically dedicated to such issues. = I would make the same suggestion for equally controversial (and important) issues such as the Vatican I pronouncement on the validity of Anglican = Orders and questions surrounding Apostolic Succession in the Lutheran churches. As titilating as these issues are, they won't be resolved here (hopefully, in = true Anglican tradition, they will NEVER be resolved into dogma) and we must = remember that not all Pipechatters are Anglicans.   Pax, BH    
(back) Subject: Re: Disney organ & the poor From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:56:42 -0400   > Honestly folks, sometimes we need to get a grip. As wonderful as it for > churches to have the resources to put in organs with dual temperaments, > or huge instruments "just because we can", there is a fine line between > what Jesus was talking about when the woman poured expensive perfume on > him, the Christ, and being extravagant at the expense of Christ.   I think it's worthwhile to remember also that purchasing a pipe organ = isn't just money thrown to the winds. It pays the salaries of the organ = builders and helps keep them employed. This includes skilled labor at many levels = - woodworkers, electricians, pipe makers, not to mention the designers and = tonal finishes. It's a chain that goes all the way to the folks who mine the = ore and those who smelt it for the tin, lead and other minerals that go into making the pipes, not to mention the manufacturers of the electronic = devices that make the organ work.   It is not just throwing money into a fancy noisemaker. The money goes to = an entire chain of skilled technicians and laborers and helps provide their livelihoods so that they can put food on their tables and support = themselves and their families.   And any of the organ builders on this list will tell you that despite what = an organ costs, nobody is getting rich off them. And the final result is a = work of joy that enhances our worship experience.   Peace, TommyLee      
(back) Subject: Overture Hall, Madison, WI From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:02:42 -0500   Found the link with a picture:   http://www.madisonsymphony.org/learn/prowland_concert_organ.php   Mike Franch Madison, WI   _________________________________________________________________ Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your existing Internet access and enjoy patented spam protection and more. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=3Ddept/byoa    
(back) Subject: RE: Good Mornin From: "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:06:22 -0700   You are right about Las Vegas...the conventions get all of the toys, but = the arts have not been the priority until recent years. There has been talk just in the last year alone about a performing arts center. Right now, = most everything is held at the auditorium at UNLV.   BTW, Las Vegas is in a trend to "implode" it's history. Several strip = hotel icons bit the dust in favor of new mega-resorts. I don't wan't Atlantic City to fall into the same trend. I'm frightened to death that Convention Hall will be raised for a gaming mega-resort.   Mark S. Towne Las Vegas, NV (less than a year away from our 53-rank von Beckerath at UNLV)   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of F Richard Burt Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:05 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Good Mornin     Hi, Ron, Nate, et al:   > What the Atlantic City organs need is a friendly infusion > of cash from a consortium of people like Bill Gates...   I have never been to the Atlantic City hall, but an idea just crossed my mind. If football and baseball arenas are being replaced regularly, such as Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, the Polo Grounds, Houston's Astrodome, etc., etc., etc... what is to say that the existing hall is desirable for a "contemporary" crowd?   Might the obvious repair bill for the pipe organ at the Atlantic City hall be an indication that this place no longer attracts the massive crowds? Where are they going?   Try Las Vegas, San Diego, San Francisco, Chicago, New York, New Orleans, Atlanta, and Dallas, etc., etc., etc... where they get up-to-date creature comforts for their conventions.   Maybe the hall, itself, has passed its prime as a place to convene.   Just an idea.   F. Richard Burt     .. "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: RE: Protestant From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:18:42 -0400   > I ask whether there were proper (whatever you wish to=20 make of the word) organs in England at the time of Cranmer or before. =20   People marveled at a medieval organ, in Winchester Cathedral if memory = serves, which was said to be audible from a mile away. Or was it five = miles?   > I seem to recall that even at the time of Mendelssohn English = organ-building was not as well developed as continental=20 European. At a minimum the pedal divisions weren't much to speak of. =20   That is my understanding as well. Most English organs then did not have = pedal divisions at all. The music was written on two staves for manuals = only. Instead, the manual compass went down another fourth, to G. = Mendelssohn himself was an enthusiastic organist and popular as such in = England. He was the most decisive influence in promoting the German = model, with manuals only to CC but with a full pedal compass.   At that time, who *did* have a well-developed pedal division other than = the Germans (with kindred neighboring countries like Denmark and = Holland)? Not the French. Not the Italians. Not the Spanish....   Re "Protestant Episcopal," I have no problem with the term as long as = the adjective is understood as a "restrictive modifier," to distinguish = her from the other branches of the church with Episcopal organization, = i.e. Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, inasmuch as the three of us = are all Episcopal and some distinction is required. The operative word = is Episcopal, not Protestant, but the term is more precise than "The = Episcopal Church", because there are other Episcopal churches. The = problem comes with the inference that we are therefore just one among = many Protestant sects, an inference encouraged by the ignorant who say = that King Henry VIII "founded" or "created" the Church of England. What = he did was sever the English church from the authority of Rome. The = clergy were still the same bishops and priests that they were before, = and everyone kept on doing as they had been doing: being that part of = the One Holy Catholic Church responsible for the English territory and = people. We hold that essence to be still unchanged.        
(back) Subject: American Choir Divisions From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:25:22 EDT   It was common practice in the 19th century for American Choir = Divisions to be unenclosed, a practice similar to England and France, with tonal disposition leaning heavily toward the established English pattern. The = Choir soundboard was frequently behind the Great soundboard, with the action to = the Swell department having a long tracker run between the chests. If the organ were = up against a back wall, either the Great or Choir usually had its tuning = access obstructed by this vertical tracker run. Typical Choir divisions on a large scale consisted of a narrow = diapason, an open wood flute, and one more strings; at 4', usually only a flute, but =   occasionally a Fugara; a piccolo of sorts (tapered or not, harmonic or = not) and a Clarinet. A considerable number of Choir Clarinets before 1890 had 1-12 = on a separate knob, built as a Bassoon Bass. On two-manual instruments, Johnson would place a Bell Clarinet (occasionally only to Tenor C) on the Great.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: RE: Atlantic City From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:30:12 -0500     Bad move - St. John the Divine won't / can't even maintain the organ(s) = they have.   Michael - who has way too many certificates recognizing contributions to restore Op. 150a       -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:03:55 -0700   Except for (possibly) the various antiphonal divisions, probably none, because of the heroic scales, wind-pressures, and voicing of the pipes for that ENORMOUS room.   If Atlantic City doesn't WANT it, they should give it to St. John the Divine in NYC (chuckle).        
(back) Subject: Re: Voice Question From: "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:34:35 -0500   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: RE: Atlantic City Organs and the hungry From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:35:21 -0500   Perhaps I'm wrong but I had assumed that most of the money spent to = restore any organ would contribute to keeping organ builders paid and in business. While I am neither an organ builder nor do I play one on TV, I think = that's a good thing.   Michael       -----Original Message-----
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City Organs and the hungry From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:27:34 EDT   lots-o-snips of much socio-politico discussion   Now my next question, to keep all this on topic, What has this got to do with raising funds to rebuild an organ or two?   even more snips      
(back) Subject: RE: American Choir Divisions From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:36:05 -0400   Sebastian Gluck explains:   > A considerable number of Choir Clarinets before 1890 had 1-12 on a=20 separate knob, built as a Bassoon Bass.   Why would anyone be interested in just the lowest 12 notes? So that you = could couple choir to pedal and play them there, while the bulk of the = choir compass had a softer registration? =20   The very first organ I ever touched, as a nine-year-old, had a 16' = "Bourdon Treble" and "Bourdon Bass" functioning similarly-- but no one = ever explained the purpose of this division, especially inasmuch as the = rank was probably borrowed on the pedal division anyway (I didn't know = enough in those days to check). =20   If that were the rationale, I could understand it in the case of a 16' = stop, but I have trouble imagining a situation in which one would want = the lowest octave of an 8' clarinet in the pedal while leaving a soft = registration on the choir.