PipeChat Digest #4008 - Monday, September 22, 2003 pre-reformation English organs by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Atlantic City Organs by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Re: Organs, the poor, the hungry by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Arghhh by "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Re: voice question by "catspaw" <email@example.com> Re: Voice Question by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Gillian Weir's program by "Glenda" <email@example.com> Atlantic city, etc. by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Re: Good Mornin by "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: PS on poverty by "firman1" <email@example.com> RE: Liturgical preaching by "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> Re: PS on poverty by <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Atlantic city, etc. by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Re: Atlantic city, etc. by <email@example.com> Re: Atlantic city, etc. by "David Scribner" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Atlantic city, etc. by "David Scribner" <email@example.com> Re: Atlantic city organ by "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: pre-reformation English organs From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:43:19 -0700 David Baker wrote: > I apologize for my digression into off-topic-ness. Perhaps it will > bring it back if I ask whether there were proper (whatever you wish to > make of the word) organs in England at the time of Cranmer or before. I = > suspect that if there were, they were rather primitive by our standards; = > I seem to recall that even at the time of Mendelssohn english > organ-building was not as well developed as continental european. Depends on what you mean by "developed" ... liturgical organ-playing in Britain had reached the stage of high art before the Reformation, but as it was mostly improvised (not unlike the French in the 19th and 20th centuries), there isn't as much written-down literature as we'd wish. Like the organ in Italy, the organ in pre-Reformation England "alternated" with the choir in the chants, and made preludes and postludes before and after the chant. Congregational singing, if there was any, was a cappella, as it still was in GERMANY, even as late as Bach's time. So there was no necessity for the organs to FILL the large cathedrals and churches. Many (again, like Italy) had several small organs associated with particular altars, or the feast-days of particular Saints, or, in one case, an organ that was only played when certain Church Fathers were read at Mattins. It must be remembered that the large pedal organs of Northern Germany, Scandinavia, and the Low Countries were the EXCEPTION. France, Spain, Italy, England, Portugal ... all had either none (England), a few 8-4 melody stops for slow-moving chant melodies (France) or a handful of large bass pipes for pedal points (Spain, Portugal, Italy), the former controlled by large wooden "mushrooms" sticking up through the floor. Another point: organ-building in England had to begin again virtually from scratch after the Puritan Interregnum ... Cromwell and his Roundheads demolished virtually every organ in England ... a few may have survived in out-of-the-way places, and I think one or two were taken down and hidden, but most were destroyed. It was necessary at the Restoration to send to Germany for organbuilders (Schulze, Snetzler), as the English ones had died or fled to parts unknown. At the first services in the restored Chapel Royal, both the parts of the trebles AND the organ had to be taken by cornetts and vielles, as there were no boys trained to sing, and no organ to play upon. At a > minimum the pedal divisions weren't much to speak of. Quite true, and English organists were unusually conservative concerning their introduction. One (I think at the Abbey) when the builder suggested introducing it, sputtered, "My good sir, I shall not dance upon a GRIDIRON," or words to that effect (grin). It was Mendelssohn's wish to play Bach, aided and abetted by S.S. Wesley and the development of the "Willis-Wesley" radiating concave pedal-board, that finally brought about the introduction of pedals and pedal organs in the 19th century. With a few exceptions, English organs to this day are smaller, but it must be remembered that the British Isles is the only country where, as a NATION, the full cathedral and collegiate CHORAL services have been maintained. Other countries may have grand cathedral organs, but virtually NONE have fine choirs (think St. Peter's in Rome) or the DAILY round of sung services you find in England. So ... the primary job of the English organ from the early 19th century onward has been ACCOMPANYING. British organists invariably turned to composing for the CHOIR, rather than the solo instrument. There still, in the Year of Grace 2003, isn't as large a body of solo literature for the organ by British composers as there is by the French, or the Germans. History being > impossibly boring to me, usually, I've never bothered to investigate the = > question, so perhaps others can supply an answer, and comment on whether = > the "reformation" was influenced by, or had an influence on, organs of > the time. > > Carrying the question forward to America, my impression is that most > American builders of revolutionary times also didn't build much in the > way of pedal divisions (who were they, by the way? Appleton?). They followed the English model of one or two large-scale 16' stops. The couplers were relied upon if more was needed. There are exceptions: the large Hooks at Holy Cross Cathedral, Boston and Immaculate Conception, Boston; the 3-manual Koehnken & Grimm in Isaac M. Wise (Plum Street) Temple in Cincinnati has an unusually large and complete pedal division, up to and including Pedal reeds at 16-8-4. I seem > to recall that even Ernest Skinner, himself, thought large pedal > divisions not worth the expense (or maybe it was his customers). E.M. Skinner was a genius, but he would put an organ ANYWHERE for enough money (chuckle) ... so I suspect you're right. The > 102-year old Hook & Hastings I play on has only 3 pedal stops: 16' > Bourdon and Diapaison and 8' Violoncello (!). No duplexing, even when > the switching system was updated (according to Barbara Owen, this is one = > of H&H's first electric action organs). Interestingly enough, the pedal = > lines come through nicely when coupled with the swell & choir. Which is undoubtedly what Frank Hastings intended (grin). > > Another question: this organ's choir division is UNenclosed. Was that > typical of Hook & Hastings? Hook continued to build in the older, conservative style right up to the end. Some attribute their demise to that fact. As I recall, they never abandoned slider chests, or tracker action (at least for small organs). I used to play a 3m Hook of 30-something stops from 1900 in Cincinnati that was original electric action ... in all things it was indistinguisable from a tracker, except that where the trackers would have dived under the floor to go back to the organ-case from the detached console, there was an electric contact rail. EVERYTHING else .... stoplist, layout, etc. was IDENTICAL to a tracker from a general earlier. ENCLOSED Choir organs ... hmmm ... I don't really know ... none of the surviving three-manual TRACKERS I've played had them. By the 19th century, the Chaire Organ had migrated from the gallery rail to the interior of the main organ case and been mistranslated into "Choir" Organ, but I'm not sure when the Choir boxes appeared. Certainly Skinner and Austin never built an UNenclosed Choir (to my knowledge), so it'd be around the turn of the 20th century, but, as I said, Hook clung to the old ways well into the 1920s. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City Organs From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:43:57 -0400 > if there is $100, 000, 000 being made available, I would wish it = to be spent on a much more worthy cause.=20 Good evening all, I don't disagree with your thoughts at all. I don't think any of us = approve of starvation. I would only respectfully point out that there = is an abundance of food in this country, arguably enough to feed = everyone and then some, and yet somehow it doesn't seem to make it to = everyone's tables... Could that be the sole responsibility of organ = folk? Perhaps. Never-the-less many of us organ folk pay our tithes, = gift to ministries among other things. I will not speculate on the = motivation for your comment, but I can assure you we are not heartless = bastards. = -Nate = "The ducking apprentice"
(back) Subject: Re: Organs, the poor, the hungry From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:48:51 EDT Do you want to boost the economy without playing partisan politics? Commission an AMERICAN pipe organ. Americans really are building the most scholarly, interesting, = vibrant, musically satisfying, and beautifully crafted instruments these days, = despite how so many people go out of their way to find bad examples. As long as we're stuck in a rut, thinking than anything from overseas = is better, especially since it's cheap now that America has hit another depression, money WILL flow out of the country. Keep the money here, = commission an instrument of which you can be proud, and you won't feel guilty for = feeding foreign stomachs and economies. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City
(back) Subject: Arghhh From: "Bigaquarium" <Bigaquarium@netzero.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:16:14 -0400 Hi all. I had a not-so-good day today. It's a new organ to us and I must have re-rolled about 120 mangled scrolls. There were trimmings from the tops = of pipes littered all over the chamber. Shading blocks were missing from = some of the big open wood pipes. The wiring was a rat's nest. Wire clippings and bits were all over the floor from the last re-build 15 YEARS AGO. The swell motor was sprung to close the shutters and hardly worked at all. A = 2' principal was added in place of a 8' celeste without re/racking or packing the racks. You can guess how the pipes looked. The organ was "goosed" up in a little modest church where the salicional and dulciana on the organ were more than enough to fill the hall with octave couplers. I had to re-solder union joints that were very badly soldered. The organ was up to about A-443 (mind you this was originally A-435 back in the day). So I re-pitched it to A=3D440. Because the organ was at A-443 the previous = tuner must have ripped most of the scrolls (well they could hardly be called scrolls at the time) wide open. The melodia was completely unshaded. And the 2 big 16' ranks were perfectly in tune when we dropped it to 440 = because no one ever bothered to tune them sharp before. A heavily unified chest (added much later) with a reed and mixture have been disabled because the reed resonators broke/bent down and crushed the mixture. Ah yes and the cone-tuned trebles looked like they were tuned with a meat tenderizer. Why do I mention all of these hideous things? Well, for one, it makes = me feel a heck of a lot better about being an apprentice. And also as an encouragement to you real pro's on this list that you are doing the right thing. And also as a warning that there is someone out there right now doing this sort of stuff to organs. I'm happy to say that many of the little problems have been fixed and further plans for the organ are materializing. -Nate "The very very tired apprentice"
(back) Subject: Re: voice question From: "catspaw" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:24:00 -0400 Speaking as a singer, there's vibrato and there's VIBRATO. When I'm = singing well, on the breath and with good but not forced support, there's a = natural vibrato that comes, I assume, from the larynx alternately relaxing and tensing, sort of pulsing. It's not forced or unnatural. When I want to darken the tone and use more chest resonance, the vibrato changes (widens some) and feels different but the pitch remains steady. High head tones = are different again and much straighter. Singing with an absolutely straight tone for me requires a more "nasal" placement, much more breath and is generally harder. Just my experience of course, different voices will = feel different things. However, someone mentioned Marilyn Horne singing Turandot? I don't think that's right. Maybe Semiramide? If it is Turandot, what role and how can = I get a recording. She is one of my favorites. Catspaw, choral singer and occasional soloist
(back) Subject: Re: Voice Question From: "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:57:09 -0500 Hi, Ray: You wrote: > Marilyn Horne is a mezzo with tremendous range and flexibility. > In her prime the vibrato was very quick. She is known for her > singing of Handel and Rossini roles, and Bizet's Carmen in > particular. Turindot is a dramatic soprano role which Marilyn > is not. Then, the evening performance on TV that I watched was not Marilyn Horn. Now I wonder who the woman was that I remember as being Marilyn Horn. <grins> Maybe I will wake up in the wee hours and put the name and face together. That's what creative subliminal night rest is all about. <grins> F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: Gillian Weir's program From: "Glenda" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:50:21 -0500 What she played Sunday night: Sonata Eroica - Jongen Sonata in C major - Schnizer Introduction, Passacaglia, and Fugue - Willan Suite Carmelite - Francaix Legendes S175/2: St. Francois de Paule merchant sur les flots - Liszt/arr. Rogg Five Dances: The Primitives, At the Ballet, and Everyone Dance - Hampton Variations on a Noel - Dupre Trois Preludes Hambourgeois: Hamburger Totentanz - Bovet Organ: First United Methodist, Pensacola Pensacola AGO site has not been updated since last year, so stoplist is not available on line. I'm sure someone else is much more qualified that I am to comment on her performances while stateside - it was nice. Glenda Sutton firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Atlantic city, etc. From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:26:18 -0500 (CDT) Dearest Ron, don't make "socio-politco" statements about the poor of the world choosing to live that way and I won't make edicts either...deal? I'm all for organs in dual temperaments and lavish specifications; just questioning whether churches are the institutions for them. Good grief, I'm not advocating less business for pipe organ builders! It would be brilliant to use people from the area to rebuild Atlantic City as St John the Divine has to work on the cathedral. The real question someone else brought up is whether the hall is used or going to be in the future. Does anyone know? When would the organ be heard? Can you imagine the cost of turning on the lights in that place? I would think there would need to be a hefty endowment fund.
(back) Subject: Re: Good Mornin From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:30:50 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Good Mornin > Hello, > > That must be heart-breaking for those who have strived > to get the ACCH instrument making music again. > > This organ is so famous, has anyone ever thought of a > WORLWIDE appeal for funds? > > It may be an instrument which is total anathema to > everything which I believe about organ design, but it > is such a unique period piece and so completely OTT, I > for one would contribute. America is rather ahead of Europe in reacting against the baroque revival, and though the ACCH instrument may have been out of fashion in the 1960's, it is increasingly in fashion again. So it is not anathema but a = wonderful instrument. Before the recent construction work which has done so much damage to the organ, there was a restoration plan in place which proposed = to raise several million dollars and to effect a complete restoration of the instrument over a period of about thirty years. This would probably have been achievable. The recent damage, however, has made this goal unattainable. I think I read somewhere that a lawsuit has been brought against the contractors who did the damage for $11,000,000. This would be about =A37,500,000 in U.K. terms. From what I understand the damage to = be, however, I do not think that that such sum would be anything like = adequate. It might be enough to restore the electrics, but there is also a lot of damage to the chests, pipework, etc., some of which would require complete replacement. One might in fact be looking at something nearer = $100,000,000 for a complete restoration, and even if such a sum could be found it is difficult to comprehend how the manpower could be found to accomplish it within any reasonable time, or even within a century or so. I hope I am wrong about this, but it seems to me that the problem is just too enormous for a restoration of the instrument to be feasible any more. John Speller
(back) Subject: Re: PS on poverty From: "firman1" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:35:10 -0500 There are far too many "handouts" in our country already . If a person is WILLING to work , finding a job won't be difficult . Remember... " The = poor shall ALWAYS be with us " . I certainly don't want MY tax dollars going to another entitlement imposed on us by the likes of Ted Kennedy and Tom Dachle, BOTH of whom are NOT members of the Republican party . I'd much rather see millions going to the rebuilding of pipe organs than to support those who won't support themselves. B.A.F.
(back) Subject: RE: Liturgical preaching From: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:47:51 -0400 David, I'm not saying that all clergy in non liturgical denominations are poor preachers, but I think your two examples are not the best ones=2E These g= uys were at the cathedral and St=2E Thomas Church which means that they are no= t your average priests=2E They are obivously exceptional at what they do or= they wouldn't be where they are=2E =20 Andrew Original Message: ----------------- From: David Baker dbaker@lawyers=2Ecom Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:05:34 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Liturgical preaching Welcome back, Bud=2E I respectfully disagree about preaching in=20 liturgical churches=2E I was raised Presbyterian, but chose the=20 episcopal church as an adult in large part because of the=20 extraordinary preaching of the Rev=2E Canon Edward N=2E West, sometime=20 sub-Dean of The Cathedral (I'm sure you know which one)=2E Later, as a=20= member of St=2E Thomas Fifth Avenue, I frequently got to hear the Rev=2E=20= John G=2EB=2E Andrew preach=2E Both of these fine priests knew how to=20 preach directly and to the point, efficiently but distinctly, and=20 their published sermons are a continuing source of inspiration=2E I=20 think it would be better to say that ordination should not be=20 presumed to equal ability in the preaching department; some clergy,=20 no doubt, don't like to preach and know they aren't good=2E They=20 shouldn't be forced by custom to do so=2E A liturgy without preaching=20 would strike me as odd, however=2E My two cents=2E David Baker "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E
(back) Subject: Re: PS on poverty From: <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:58:58 -0700 Oh Lord, here we go again. FYI, 2/3 of our homeless in CA are mentally ill and shell-shocked veterans, and unable to work. They were turned out on the streets by the redoubtable Ronnie Ray-Gun when he was governor. Just TRY living on a minimum wage job in California with a family. It simply can't be done. It can BARELY be done with all of us on welfare, food stamps, or SSI. And I CAN'T work, after two strokes and two heart attacks. So don't generalize. Bud Clark firman1 wrote: > There are far too many "handouts" in our country already . If a person = is > WILLING to work , finding a job won't be difficult . Remember... " The = poor > shall ALWAYS be with us " . I certainly don't want MY tax dollars going = to > another entitlement imposed on us by the likes of Ted Kennedy and Tom > Dachle, BOTH of whom are NOT members of the Republican party . I'd much > rather see millions going to the rebuilding of pipe organs than to = support > those who won't support themselves. B.A.F. > >
(back) Subject: RE: Atlantic city, etc. From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:59:31 -0400 > whether the hall is used or going to be in the future. Does anyone know? When would the organ be heard? Can you imagine the cost of turning on the lights in that place? I would think there would need to be a hefty endowment fund. I used to hope every year that one of the finalists for the Miss America = contest would be an organist, who for her talent performance would sit = down at that seven-manual console and tear the place to pieces with a = riveting rendition of something like Alain's Litanies. That would keep = the hoi-polloi interested in our instrument for a couple years, I should = think. But the pageant isn't even held there anymore, is it?
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic city, etc. From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:10:57 -0700 Aw, come on, y'all! This is "can-do America" ... turn somebody like Thompson-Allen loose to be czar over the whole project; farm out the smaller work that can be moved to responsible organ-builders around the country (WORK!); assemble a crew to run the on-site shop, and JUST DO IT! We've funded a LOT sillier projects in this country for a LOT more money. The whole thing would cost less than ONE B-1 bomber. Cheers, Bud Emmons, Paul wrote: >>whether the hall is used or > > going to be in the future. Does anyone know? When would the organ be > heard? Can you imagine the cost of turning on the lights in that place? > I would think there would need to be a hefty endowment fund. > > I used to hope every year that one of the finalists for the Miss America = contest would be an organist, who for her talent performance would sit = down at that seven-manual console and tear the place to pieces with a = riveting rendition of something like Alain's Litanies. That would keep = the hoi-polloi interested in our instrument for a couple years, I should = think. But the pageant isn't even held there anymore, is it? > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com > > >
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic city, etc. From: "David Scribner" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:17:06 -0500 > >It would be brilliant to use people from the area to rebuild Atlantic >City as St John the Divine has to work on the cathedral. The >real question someone else brought up is whether the hall is used or >going to be in the future. Does anyone know? When would the organ be >heard? Can you imagine the cost of turning on the lights in that place? >I would think there would need to be a hefty endowment fund. The Hall just went through a multi-year renovation. the Convention Hall for Atlantic City is now across town from the BOARDWALK HALL. Conventions don't really use the ""old" Convention Hall any more yet i think things like the Miss America Pageant are still held there. Although the seating has been redone and the capacity has been reduced the total volume of the Hall is still the same. This renovation is what caused all the "damage" to the organ - the dust, etc that got into it even though the chambers were blocked off. And, yes, to answer one of the questions posed recently, nothing on the left side of the Auditorium can work currently since the relay had to be removed as part of the redoing of the seating areas. The relay for that side was in a room under the old seating - with the change in the seating that room had to be removed - therefore the relay had to be removed. As I remember it was stored in the Organ Workshop behind the Stage Right Chamber. David "Retired" Director of Communications - ACCHOS
(back) Subject: RE: Atlantic city, etc. From: "David Scribner" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:27:33 -0500 > >I used to hope every year that one of the finalists for the Miss >America contest would be an organist, who for her talent performance >would sit down at that seven-manual console and tear the place to >pieces with a riveting rendition of something like Alain's Litanies. >That would keep the hoi-polloi interested in our instrument for a >couple years, I should think. But the pageant isn't even held there >anymore, is it? It is still held in BOARDWALK HALL - at least according to the Miss America Web Site. it was held there this past weekend David
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic city organ From: "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:35:07 -0400 Brilliant Bruce! Great job using the poverty thing to speak out against electrics=2E I never thought of it that way, but true, electrics put peop= le out of work because not as much labor is needed=2E Andrew=20 Original Message: ----------------- Wrom: UNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYO Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:24:33 -0400 To: pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Subject: Re: Atlantic city organ Bob said: <<Whilst I can understand your sentiments regarding the upkeep of the Atlantic City organs, if there is $100, 000, 000 being made available, I would wish it to be spent on a much more worthy cause=2E>> Come on, Bob=2E It's not like this is the last $100,000,000 in the world= =2E Yes, think of all the poor, hungry people that could be fed with this mone= y=2E But, also, think of the poor hungry people in THIS country who would benef= it from this infusion of money into our own economy=2E Those people would, = in turn, be able to donate to help others=2E But, at the same time, a grea= t treasure of organ building and historical landmark would be preserved for future generations=2E This is the essence of stewardship=2E People need to think about the repercussions of coating their homes with never-ever-need-maintenance siding=2E Think of all of those people who are being put out of work bec= ause a machine has made this wonderful product=2E Gee=2E=2E=2E=2E the same si= tuation seems to fit for electroid instruthingaments! gosh!!! ;-) Scritchies and Haruffarrroooo-bow-ha-wow=2E=2E=2E Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at HowlingAcres http://members=2Etripod=2Ecom/Brucon502 Help Some Animals Free: http://tinyurl=2Ecom/2j5i and http://pets=2Ecare2=2Ecom/welcome?w=3D308025421 Get paid to shop cheap: http://bdawg=2Efreestoreclub=2Ecom/ and http://www=2Esmartmall=2Ebiz?717886 "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www=2Epipechat=2Eorg List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat=2Eorg Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat=2Eorg Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat=2Eorg -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E