PipeChat Digest #4009 - Tuesday, September 23, 2003
 
Re: PS on poverty
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: PS on poverty
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Atlantic city, etc.
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Atlantic City
  by "Bill Raty" <billious@billraty.com>
Subject: Re: PS on poverty
  by "Dr. Amy Fleming" <docamy@alltel.net>
Re: PS on poverty
  by "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com>
Re: PS on poverty  (extremely OT)
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
OFF-TOPIC: politics and poverty
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: PS on poverty  (extremely OT)
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
Re: PS on poverty
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
Re: Poverty and pipes
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: PS on poverty From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:19:25 EDT   Bud:   Come on, Reagan was governor nearly 30 years ago, and was president 22 years ago. Besides Military men have the VA hospitals to go to In every major city, cemeteries too. They have out patient care, and Inpatient care, mental health care, $10. co-pay on all generic drugs. My father who's 87 and a WW II vet still qualifies. Don't go around telling people 2/3 of the street people are vets and blame Reagan for it. it just doesn't hold water. All they have to do is show their discharge papers or their old dog tags, and it's a done deal. Reagan as governor doesn't have jurisdiction over the VA. Every man honorably discharged carries a reduced size discharge memo ecased in thick plastic. There's nobody in these United States that needs to be on the street, we have shelters for that, and hot meal kitchens, run by churches and individuals. Those who are, drug addicts, and drunks and people running from the law chose to live this way, but it's not necessary.    
(back) Subject: Re: PS on poverty From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:39:14 -0700   Um, Ron, have you been keeping up with what's HAPPENING to the entire VA support system? It's CRUMBLING, and Bush has made FURTHER cuts.   Reagan as governor (and his Republican successors) DID have jurisdiction over funding of State programs that were supposed to PICK UP those discharged from mental hospitals.   Have you ever WORKED with Vietnam vets? I have. We have something called "Stand Down" every year in Balboa Park here in San Diego, to attempt to GET them into the system. The ones still on the street are so damaged that it's extremely difficult to COMMUNICATE with them. Our back country (and the woods up in Oregon and Washington) are FULL of vets who have become hermits.   And as for the shelters ... LA is X thousand beds SHORT of enough shelter space, and we're talking WOMEN and CHILDREN and FAMILIES displaced by the economic mess we're in, never mind the hard-core mentally ill and the veterans.   I was a social worker for 20 + years in San Diego, and I KNOW what I'm talking about.   Also, if it weren't for a loving family (and NOT for my erstwhile "Christian community" at St. Matt's) *I* would be living in a refrigerator box under a freeway overpass NOW, TODAY. So don't tell ME that it doesn't HAVE to happen to "anybody", because it CAN, and DOES.   Bud   RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > Bud: > > Come on, Reagan was governor nearly 30 years ago, and was president > 22 years ago. Besides Military men have the VA hospitals to go to > In every major city, cemeteries too. They have out patient care, and > Inpatient care, mental health care, $10. co-pay on all generic drugs. > My father who's 87 and a WW II vet still qualifies. Don't go around > telling people 2/3 of the street people are vets and blame Reagan for = it. > it just doesn't hold water. All they have to do is show their discharge > papers or their old dog tags, and it's a done deal. Reagan as governor > doesn't have jurisdiction over the VA. Every man honorably discharged > carries a reduced size discharge memo ecased in thick plastic. There's > nobody in these United States that needs to be on the street, we have > shelters for that, and hot meal kitchens, run by churches and = individuals. > Those who are, drug addicts, and drunks and people running from the > law chose to live this way, but it's not necessary.        
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic city, etc. From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:42:42 EDT   Terrick:   I didn't make political statements, I answered Bud's political statements. Perhaps you didn't read his AM message.   As far as the new Pasi Opus XIV reserve judgement until you are able to go hear it.   I don't go out of my way ever to flame people, but if the errors are = blatant and egregious enough I will set things straight. I don't make a habit of going negative on posts just for the sake of, but when I see agenda based nonsense, who ever does it will hear from me. We don't need to pass on misinformation, put downs, because life is simply too short. The hit and run bombs will be answered.   Is that fair? I'm fair and above board with everyone, and wish to have things remain peaceful. We can disagree, it's only natural when this many minds get together, but being respectful and honest is a good thing too. Shovel in a low blow and I will say something.   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Atlantic City From: "Bill Raty" <billious@billraty.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:47:55 -0700 (PDT)   Colin,   A close friend and co-worker of mine is the great grandson of Charles Seibert Losch. He's told me that the American stock market crash of 1929 occurred midway thru the installation. The contract allowed the convention hall corp to specify additions and modifications that the organbuilder was obliged to install before final remuneration would occur.   The convention corp was bankrupt (or had cash flow problems) because of the crash, and postponed final payout by requesting additions whenever it appeared that the organ was nearing completion. Since Mr. Losch had to pay up front for materials and labor this instrument and contract forced him into bankruptcy.   My own inference as to root cause for grandiosity was that the design of the instrument was by a theorist (Sen. Richards), who was not an organ builder per se. Again by contract.   Interesting to think that one excess (the stock market bubble of the late twenties) led directly or indirectly to another...   I won't argue that 60-70 ranks can pretty much cover the gamut if done properly in most situations.   Cheers,   -Bill Wearing his own tin helmet.   --- Colin Mitchell <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Hello, > > I hate discussing size for the sake of it. > > However, the Atlantic City Midmer-Losh is SO enormous > and SO musically excessive, it is difficult to be > neutral about it. > > -- 8< -- snip 8< -- > > Maybe those who know this instrument might like to > explain the thinking behind it because, for the life > of me, I cannot. > > -- 8< -- more snipped -- 8< -- > > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK (wearing a tin helmet) >     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D    
(back) Subject: Subject: Re: PS on poverty From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <docamy@alltel.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:54:30 -0500   Again from my profession, some wonder the moral acceptability of a person spending several thousands on healthcare for their pet (at a major medical center - not in my neck of the woods mind you <grin>) while people go without healthcare. Well, it's their money and they probably earned it = (not in all cases I'm sure) but what motive is there to work hard if we cannot spend our money on what we want to. And hopefully those same people will have the moral character to donate some of their money as well. While I agree that people who are too ill to work or mentally ill should be taken care of, part of the problem is the loss of the extended family. A sister-in-law has a Downs child that is now in her 20's. While many suggested that she institutionalize her, she chose instead to take care of her at home. In return her entire family has learned compassion and love her dearly. Another person I know of, who is mentally ill, could be = helped tremendously by her family but they all turn away as she is an adult. So = it falls to the government to take care of her when she becomes unstable. My point is that families should take care of each other instead of relying = on government. I see a lot of folks around here that pull disability when = they could be working some type of job, maybe not what they want but it would still be a job, but it is easier to sit home and get disability. One even asked me if I would pay them under the table! Pipe organs!! (on topic) To support the arts especially in times of depression is uplifting and encouraging to all. It is a necessary part of our culture. Bud, you should move to the Ozarks, the country is beautiful, the folks = are friendly, life is at a slower pace, and it is a LOT cheaper to live here. <grin> SDG, Amy    
(back) Subject: Re: PS on poverty From: "M Fox" <ophicleide16@direcway.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:04:27 -0700     ----- Original Message ----- From: RonSeverin@aol.com To: pipechat@pipechat.org Every man honorably discharged carries a reduced size discharge memo ecased in thick plastic.   OK, OK, this is off topic, but what sort of nonsense is this? As an = honorably discharged veteran, I can state authoritatively that the above = is a categorical False Statement.   And even without the "ecased" discharge memo, veterans can wait a long = time before nudging their way into the VA queue.   Al Franken's recent book addresses a real need....   MAF    
(back) Subject: Re: PS on poverty (extremely OT) From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:23:14 EDT   Hello RonSeverin@aol.com,   In reference to your comment:   =E8 Those who are, drug addicts, and drunks =E8 and people running from =E8 thelaw chose to live this way, =E8 but it's not necessary. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   Ron,   I am very surprised and disappointed that you would take such a hard and=20 unforgiving line. =20   Many of the mentally ill justly see "inpatient mental health care" as=20 "incarceration," and wish to keep their independence. They may be too ill t= o work,=20 but they do NOT want to be restrained behind locked doors. And, keep in min= d,=20 even the VA hospitals are facing serious cuts, and there simply are not enou= gh=20 beds for all those who need it. Shelters are generally used by those who=20 are, and I quote, "drug addicts and drunks," and those who are mentally ill=20= are=20 afraid to stay in shelters because of this.   Now, IF the disabled veterans choose to live on the streets rather than a=20 locked, understaffed ward, can you really blame them?   Victoria (also getting "handouts," as I paid a rather high price to survive cancer)    
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC: politics and poverty From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:52:13 -0700   Here's the thing: Orwell's "1984" just arrived a few years late.   Up is down, good is bad, black is white, Doublespeak and the Big Lie are the order of the day in government.   Destroy a country and a society in order to "save" it, for example.   Blaming the VICTIM of abuse is standard procedure for the ABUSER, for another.   "it's THEIR fault; THEY'RE shiftless; THEY'RE druggies; THEY'RE running from the law," etc. etc. etc.   "A rising tide lifts all boats?"   Naw, they just empty their bilges on the rest of us.   But that's not what the GOVERNMENT wants you to believe.   I have something to say about the whole "war on drugs" mess:   NOBODY wants to look at WHY people turn to drugs ... what is SO bad about contemporary society that people WANT to poison their bodies, "turn on and tune out?"   Hopelessness.   Disease.   Poverty.   Oppression.   For starters.   So we spend untold billions on a war that's ALREADY lost.   That's right, folks, LOST.   NOW.   TODAY.   Not tomorrow, or the next day.   TODAY.   The war on drugs is a growth industry; the bureaucracy is self-sustaining.   I live on a main thoroughfare in a lower middle-class neighborhood in San Diego. A black-and-white passes (on average) every ten minutes. Yet I could walk across the street and make a deal in thirty seconds flat, if I wanted to. Any time of the day or night ... 24/7.   Downtown on Market Street, behind the big new shopping mall, it's an open supermarket.   You're not going to win the war until the ROOT CAUSES are extirpated.   It's that simple.   Same with poverty.   Education is the key; so what does the government want to do? Dismantle the free public school system.   Makes sense.   NOT!   Millions of children in America living in poverty, without enough food, and with NO health insurance ... what does the government do?   Talk.   And raise zillions of dollars.   To get themselves re-elected.   So they can talk some more.   Is it any wonder the rate of participation of registered votes is less than 40%?       Bud                
(back) Subject: Re: PS on poverty (extremely OT) From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 01:04:56 -0400   To Bud, Ron et al, First we need to get the kids off the street and under the tutelage = of caring adults. They are our future in the country. Secondly we need = to reach out to those in need and help them with other than money. = Whether rich or poor, most people feel that giving their stipend to a = church or some "official" charity relieves them of responsibility for = their brother.=20 I belong to Big Brothers/Big Sisters.There is no shortage of = caucasian BB/BS but there is an absence of African Americans who are = willing to take on a Little Brother/Sister. We're not talking about = spending money on a kid but that precious commodity called time. I seems = like the old attitude of "I've got mine so you go get yours." Ken Lay on = a smaller basis.=20 Paul ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Myosotis51@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 12:23 AM Subject: Re: PS on poverty (extremely OT)     Hello RonSeverin@aol.com,   In reference to your comment:   =E8 Those who are, drug addicts, and drunks =E8 and people running from =E8 thelaw chose to live this way, =E8 but it's not necessary. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   Ron,   I am very surprised and disappointed that you would take such a hard = and unforgiving line. =20   Many of the mentally ill justly see "inpatient mental health care" as = "incarceration," and wish to keep their independence. They may be too = ill to work, but they do NOT want to be restrained behind locked doors. = And, keep in mind, even the VA hospitals are facing serious cuts, and = there simply are not enough beds for all those who need it. Shelters = are generally used by those who are, and I quote, "drug addicts and = drunks," and those who are mentally ill are afraid to stay in shelters = because of this.   Now, IF the disabled veterans choose to live on the streets rather = than a locked, understaffed ward, can you really blame them?   Victoria (also getting "handouts," as I paid a rather high price to survive = cancer)  
(back) Subject: Re: PS on poverty From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:48:55 -0500   It's most refreshing for me to agree with you on SOMETHING, lately, Bud. It's been a while. :-) I don't even mind--in this one post, and this post only--that your CAP LOCK key can't help but activate on average about = every 10 words. You really should check this out with your local dealer.   Bob Lind (To bring this on topic: you never told me if you have any Griesbacher organ works. His Fant & Fugue in f# might be interesting, = nicht war? ) ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@cox.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 10:39 PM Subject: Re: PS on poverty     > Um, Ron, have you been keeping up with what's HAPPENING to the entire VA > support system? It's CRUMBLING, and Bush has made FURTHER cuts. > > Reagan as governor (and his Republican successors) DID have jurisdiction > over funding of State programs that were supposed to PICK UP those > discharged from mental hospitals. > > Have you ever WORKED with Vietnam vets? I have. We have something called > "Stand Down" every year in Balboa Park here in San Diego, to attempt to > GET them into the system. The ones still on the street are so damaged > that it's extremely difficult to COMMUNICATE with them. Our back country > (and the woods up in Oregon and Washington) are FULL of vets who have > become hermits. > > And as for the shelters ... LA is X thousand beds SHORT of enough > shelter space, and we're talking WOMEN and CHILDREN and FAMILIES > displaced by the economic mess we're in, never mind the hard-core > mentally ill and the veterans. > > I was a social worker for 20 + years in San Diego, and I KNOW what I'm > talking about. > > Also, if it weren't for a loving family (and NOT for my erstwhile > "Christian community" at St. Matt's) *I* would be living in a > refrigerator box under a freeway overpass NOW, TODAY. So don't tell ME > that it doesn't HAVE to happen to "anybody", because it CAN, and DOES. > > Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Poverty and pipes From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:20:06 +0100 (BST)   I don't know what pipe organ craftsmen earn in the US, but in the UK I don't think it's much above the bread line. You can make a living building organs, but it is a precarious one - often more of a vocation than being the pastor of a church. However, all projects employing people will re-distribute wealth. I don't really think organ building employs enough people to impact on the macro economy. Yes - at a personal level it matters, both to those employed and those who commission great works of art - for that is what a pipe organ must aim to be. Some visual artists - those who paint pictures and create sculptures have, and still do, make a good living during their lifetime. But whereas you will find a painting by Monet sold for 50,000,000 dollars, a second hand pipe organ doesn't attract the same amount of cash, in fact it seems to work in the opposite direction - restoring them costs a fortune! Is the ACCH organ worth restoring as a work of art? Where would the money be spent? John Foss.   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Potage Tournemire Money - Profit and Pay   ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk