PipeChat Digest #4413 - Tuesday, April 6, 2004
 
Re: Schlicker at Grace Church at 10th street and Broadway in NYC
  by "Sand Lawn" <glawn@jam.rr.com>
Re: Schlicker at Grace Church at 10th street and Broadway in NYC
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
Re: until total compliance was attained
  by "Richard Hazelip" <rhazelip1@yahoo.com>
Re: Vibrato and Pastoral Care
  by "Richard Huggins" <huggins88@yahoo.com>
fads in organ-building
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Vibrato and Pastoral Care
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: fads in organ-building
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: fads in organ-building
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: "Startling a few people" - Messiaen
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: readings and a chuckle or two
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: fads in organ-building
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Flag near altar (Re: Earth Day)
  by "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
RE: Flag near alter
  by "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Schlicker at Grace Church at 10th street and Broadway in NYC From: "Sand Lawn" <glawn@jam.rr.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:06:21 -0500   Grace Church at on time had an Erben installed in 1830 .. the organ in = the Gallery was later connected to the Roosevelt, #36 installed in the = Chancel in 1878... this work was rebuilt by E.M.Skinner in 1903... much = of the Erben was retained until the Skinner, #707 was installed in 1928 = ....=20   Sand Lawn ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ahremsen40@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Re: Schlicker at Grace Church at 10th street and Broadway in = NYC     Dear Folks,   In my opinion the only good stop in the Schlicker at Grace Church is = the Skinner 32' Open Wood!  
(back) Subject: Re: Schlicker at Grace Church at 10th street and Broadway in NYC From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:13:26 -0700 (PDT)     --- ahremsen40@aol.com wrote: > Dear Folks, > > In my opinion the only good stop in the Schlicker at > Grace Church is the > Skinner 32' Open Wood! The shame of it is that it > replaced a truly wonderful > double Skinner, Chancel and Gallery organs. The same > thing happened at the > Cathedral in Garden City, L.I., N.Y. A noble > Roosevelt was replaced by a truly > gruesome Schlicker, now replaced by a Casavant. > Shameful! > > Allan Remsen > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D     Allan,   Can you comment a bit more for the benefit of the members of our list on why didn't the powers that be "let well enough alone?" Naturally an electropneumatic organ has to be releathered after a period of time... but *why* were these organs that you mentioned replaced by others? I feel sure there must be a reason/some reasons why...     A sincere, inquiring mind would like to know...   Best wishes to all,     Morton Belcher fellow list member.....         __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/  
(back) Subject: Re: until total compliance was attained From: "Richard Hazelip" <rhazelip1@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:15:21 -0700 (PDT)       Charlie Lester <crlester@137.com> wrote:   Including the "other-abled" [P.C. for "handicapped"], one supposes.     In all fairness to the priest, he does allow for sitting reverently for = those who are unable to kneel.---he just really enforces the posture of = reverence during the consecration, even more so than the other priest. = Made a couple of people mad, but that's the way it is.     Richard      
(back) Subject: Re: Vibrato and Pastoral Care From: "Richard Huggins" <huggins88@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 23:31:24 -0500   > Well, Richard, Bud did talk about a course at a Seminary in pastoral = care. I > said that this would be the last thing I would need. I stand by that > statement. Incidentally, I play for the love of it - no salary available = here. > That seems to fit your interpretation.   > Bob Elms.   I didn't note his comment about the seminary course. I guess it seemed incidental to what he went on to talk about. In any event, just so there's no misunderstanding as for my "interpretation": getting paid or not = getting paid does not a ministry make or exclude. (Volunteers probably get an = extra star in their heavenly crown though!) As for pastoral care, the degree to which a given staff member (volunteer or otherwise) goes in that regard is an individual decision, and whatever that decision is it's neither right = or wrong...it just is what it is for that person.   --Richard Huggins    
(back) Subject: fads in organ-building From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:02:18 -0700   Morton wrote:   *why* were these organs that > you mentioned replaced by others? I feel sure there > must be a reason/some reasons why...   They were replaced on account of fashion, mostly because organists couldn't accept instruments on their own terms for what they WERE, rather than kvetching about what they WEREN'T. Some organists are notorious for seizing on the occasion of an older organ needing releathering, etc. as an excuse to get a new organ.   We lost a great chunk of our American organ heritage in the early 20th century when electro-pneumatic and electro-mechanical action first became popular. A few 19th century organs survived with electric pull-downs, but the vast majority went to the dump, pipes and all, to be replaced by "modern" unit organs and orchestral organs.   Then, in the period following WWII, we lost a great many worthy examples of THOSE, both at the hands of G. Donald Harrison AND the germanic neo-baroque enthusiasts.   NOW some of the GOOD examples of G. Donald Harrison's work and the baroque revival are endangered.   And so it goes ...   I continue to be MYSTIFIED at ANGLICAN churches who install germanic organs ... at least Anglican churches that propose to have a halfway traditional Anglican CHORAL program.   N.B. -- tracker is an ACTION, nothing more. MOST of the core of the 19th century Anglican choral repertoire was accompanied on tracker organs, or (later) organs with tubular pneumatic action to slider chests. Both were on moderate wind-pressure, etc. It is entirely possible to build an Anglican service-playing organ with tracker action, or pneumatic-assisted tracker action.   The principal problem with building a tracker organ for the Anglican service is the placement of the console. The British manage with swallows-nests and time-beaters and the rest, but the average American organist-choirmaster needs to be in direct visual contact with his choir. The problem is compounded by a divided chancel and/or a divided organ, though I have played a few where the trackers ran under the chancel to the other side.   Considering the high degree of perfection to which the British brought tubular pneumatic action, and Mander's recent excellent rebuild of a 4m tubular pneumatic organ in the UK, it might be worth considering for divided chancel situations where slider chests and a more (?) responsive action other than electric is desired.   Cheers,   Bud   littlebayus@yahoo.com wrote: > --- ahremsen40@aol.com wrote: > >>Dear Folks, >> >>In my opinion the only good stop in the Schlicker at >>Grace Church is the >>Skinner 32' Open Wood! The shame of it is that it >>replaced a truly wonderful >>double Skinner, Chancel and Gallery organs. The same >>thing happened at the >>Cathedral in Garden City, L.I., N.Y. A noble >>Roosevelt was replaced by a truly >>gruesome Schlicker, now replaced by a Casavant. >>Shameful! >> >>Allan Remsen >>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > Allan, > > Can you comment a bit more for the benefit of the > members of our list on why didn't the powers that be > "let well enough alone?" Naturally an > electropneumatic organ has to be releathered after a > period of time... but *why* were these organs that > you mentioned replaced by others? I feel sure there > must be a reason/some reasons why... > > > A sincere, inquiring mind would like to know... > > Best wishes to all, > > > Morton Belcher > fellow list member..... > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Vibrato and Pastoral Care From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:17:47 -0700   Bob and I seldom agree, and this case is no exception. My POINT was that the organist/choirmaster has a DUTY to have a care about the spiritual well-being of his volunteers AS IT TOUCHES UPON THE MUSIC PROGRAM.   Some examples:   I have never had a rigid rule about allowing or not allowing people to sing on Sunday who miss the week-day rehearsal. That's a PASTORAL consideration, rather than a musical one. A volunteer soprano soloist with five kids simply isn't going to MAKE every rehearsal. Kids get sick.   The firestorm provoked by the discussion of "what to do about vibrato" both here and on Anglican-Music is another example. I have NEVER asked a volunteer to leave one of my choirs, with one exception: a woman who was mentally unbalanced and became verbally abusive during rehearsal. The rest of the choir was quite frightened of her.   The example that provoked the storm was a dear lady, a widow in her 70s, and a professional singer, whose main social outlet WAS the choir ... I promised her that she had a place in the choir as long as I was organist; my successor saw fit to dismiss her (a volunteer singer), WITHOUT considering the PASTORAL implications. And, BTW, she WAS still able to contribute musically.   In the face of a rector who never thanked the choir, or made the slightest attempt to see that they received ashes, had ample time and opportunity to receive Holy Communion, were allowed to venerate the Cross on Good Friday, etc., it was up to ME to see that those things were provided for them by other clergy on staff.   In the face of the same rector, who never made home or hospital calls, it was up to ME to see that either the curate or a priest from the neighboring parish was made aware when one of my choir was ill or in hospital.   Admittedly that was a somewhat unusual situation, although I'm told that situation is a good deal more common than it ought to be.   I made it a point to call every choir member who missed rehearsal OR service, not to fuss at them, but to make sure they were OK ... some were elderly and/or lived alone.   THAT'S what I meant by PASTORAL CARE.   Cheers,   Bud   Richard Huggins wrote:   >>Well, Richard, Bud did talk about a course at a Seminary in pastoral = care. I >>said that this would be the last thing I would need. I stand by that >>statement. Incidentally, I play for the love of it - no salary available = here. >>That seems to fit your interpretation. > > >>Bob Elms. > > > I didn't note his comment about the seminary course. I guess it seemed > incidental to what he went on to talk about. In any event, just so = there's > no misunderstanding as for my "interpretation": getting paid or not = getting > paid does not a ministry make or exclude. (Volunteers probably get an = extra > star in their heavenly crown though!) As for pastoral care, the degree = to > which a given staff member (volunteer or otherwise) goes in that regard = is > an individual decision, and whatever that decision is it's neither right = or > wrong...it just is what it is for that person. > > --Richard Huggins > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: fads in organ-building From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:18:39 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Well, in actual fact, the Anglican tradition managed quite well with Germanic and even German organs, built by Schulze, Hill, Lewis, Brindley & Foster etc etc.   That was in the years approx 1855 to 1890, even though the bigger Swell reeds and climax reeds of Willis were gaining ground in the fashion stakes.   Personally, I can think of very little Anglican music which could not be very well accompanied on a fine Lewis organ such as Southwark Cathedral; and Lewis was building (more or less) Schulze copies.   Regards,     Colin Mitchell UK     --- quilisma@cox.net wrote:   > I continue to be MYSTIFIED at ANGLICAN churches who > install germanic > organs ... at least Anglican churches that propose > to have a halfway > traditional Anglican CHORAL program.     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/  
(back) Subject: Re: fads in organ-building From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:32:37 -0700   Granted, but there are germanic organs, and then there are germanic organs (grin). I daresay Schulze, Hill, Lewis, Brindley & Foster, etc. never built an organ with a breaking-glass Zimbel mixture pitched at 1/4' or 1/8', or a Swell where the only reed was a 1/8-length Schnarrentrichterregal, or a Choir organ based upon a 2' or a 1' = Principal.   Cheers,   Bud   Colin Mitchell wrote:   > Hello, > > Well, in actual fact, the Anglican tradition managed > quite well with Germanic and even German organs, built > by Schulze, Hill, Lewis, Brindley & Foster etc etc. > > That was in the years approx 1855 to 1890, even though > the bigger Swell reeds and climax reeds of Willis were > gaining ground in the fashion stakes. > > Personally, I can think of very little Anglican music > which could not be very well accompanied on a fine > Lewis organ such as Southwark Cathedral; and Lewis was > building (more or less) Schulze copies. > > Regards, > > > Colin Mitchell UK > > > --- quilisma@cox.net wrote: > > >>I continue to be MYSTIFIED at ANGLICAN churches who >>install germanic >>organs ... at least Anglican churches that propose >>to have a halfway >>traditional Anglican CHORAL program. > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: "Startling a few people" - Messiaen From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:24:39 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   Good luck Malcolm!   Take a good book with you, if possible.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- Malcolm Wechsler <manderusa@earthlink.net> wrote: > I am now ready for one > of Paul Jacobs's nine hour marathons, with the > complete Messiaen works, and > I do mean that. That kind of saturation in the style > might be a whole new > and richer experience.     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/  
(back) Subject: Re: readings and a chuckle or two From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 00:32:44 -0600   Hi, Melisma, et al: Making up rhymes and singing them with great gusto, reminds me of one that I heard while a student, . . . about 400 years ago. <grins> "Nothing attracts the mustard from the wiener, quite like slacks fresh from the cleaner." To be sung with a very somber "dark" tone with fat oratorio/operatic vibrato, gliding faintly over the consonants so it comes out sounding something like the "master" doing something or the other. F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Re: fads in organ-building From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 02:18:27 EDT   In a message dated 4/5/2004 11:53:02 PM Central Daylight Time, quilisma@cox.net writes: The problem is compounded by a divided chancel and/or a divided organ, though I have played a few where the trackers ran under the chancel to the other side. Dobson has encountered and overcome this exact situation on two organs in = my neighborhood. The manuals are tracker action, and the pedal, which is on = the opposite side of the chancel, is electric action. Both are wonderful. Check them out: http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/op64_evanston.html     http://www.dobsonorgan.com/html/instruments/op81_kenilworth.html.   Hope everyone's Holy Week and Easter services go well. cheers, gfc     Gregory Ceurvorst M.M. Organ Performance Student Northwestern University Director of Music and Organist St. Peter's U.C.C. Frankfort, IL 847.332.2788 home 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Flag near altar (Re: Earth Day) From: "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:52:25 +0100   Andres,   And can you let me know where (on the web) I might find a copy of this = piece ?   Harry [MusicMan] Grove   -----Original Message----- From: Andr=E9s G=FCnther <agun@telcel.net.ve> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: 04 April 2004 14:19 Subject: RE: Flag near altar (Re: Earth Day)     >Andres Gunther >agun@telcel.net.ve > >In my country we have to play the National Anthem during the Elevation = (at >consecration) in Mass. >This goes back to a Presidential Decree of Gral. Guzman Blanco (who ruled >the country from 1870 to 1888). >Today, this obbligation boiled down to play the Anthem only on High = Holiday >Masses. But it MUST be played. The decree maybe 130 years old- but it = never >was withdrawed.      
(back) Subject: RE: Flag near alter From: "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 09:50:51 +0200   I find the whole idea of displaying a national flag in a place of worship bizarre.   I am neither a US citizen nor a Christian but I thought the US constitution clearly separates church and state, in which case a secular symbol such as the flag would be inappropriate,   I also thought the constitution guarantees freedom of religion, in which case worship can take place without flags since, as far as I know, this freedom is not conditional on the flag being displayed.   What next? A draw knob on the organ to raise the flag (with half draw for funerals)?   Just my 2 euros' worth.   Peter.