PipeChat Digest #4458 - Tuesday, April 27, 2004
 
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: wedding: United Church of Christ
  by "brade" <beveland@millsauto.com>
Re: wedding: United Church of Christ
  by "brade" <beveland@millsauto.com>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Friday, April 30: Simon Preston in Delaware
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
RE: wedding: United Church of Christ
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
hey Yall...a note of invite
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Fisk Organ at Lausanne Cathedral, First CD
  by "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
[LONG] A few organs in the Ozarks foothills and Delta plains, part 3 of 3
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: [LONG] A few organs in the Ozark foothills and Delta plains,	part 2 o
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all?
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:13:12 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   This is all terribly worthy and religious, but I wonder why it is, that Handel wrote "Messiah" for performance in theatres/secular venues rather than churches?   It has often been said that "Messiah" has gained more converts than all the sermons ever written; and I tend to agree with that statement.   Professional musicians, like (presumably) professional mediums, are able to switch on to the "spirit" of a performance, sing/play and depart to the bar afterwards!   How do we judge what is an "offering" and what is a "non-offering?"   Is it the quality of the performance, or something else?   Please enlighten us!   My guess is, that in a recording, we are listening to an alien acoustic being modified by an equally alien acoustic; often through dubious audio.   Would the same not apply to a Beethoven Symphony heard on a beach radio?   One thing I can tell you......   When Benjamin Britten conducted the recording of the Bach, St.John Passion, and invited the then wonderful "Wandsworth Boy's Choir" to be part of the recording session, during the interval, there were lumps of young choristers weeping together in the cloisters....and these were not church choristers.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       --- Noel Stoutenburg <mjolnir@ticnet.com> wrote: > Alan Freed wrote: > > > I think the only thing we can sacrifice is > something that is ours in > > the first place   > I have come to hold the position that the biggest > impediment with the > use of recordings in worship stems most often that > the recordings are > not made with the intention of an offering. Because > of the fact that > when the choir of St. Paul's Cathedral (London, UK) > made their marvelous > set of recordings of nearly the entire Psalter, they > were doing so with > the intention of making the recording, not with the > intention of making > the offering     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover  
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:39:58 -0400   on 4/27/04 10:13 AM, Colin Mitchell at cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk wrote:   > > > How do we judge what is an "offering" and what is a > "non-offering?"   See Alan Freed's post. Basically, you can't sacrifice (or offer) what = isn't yours. It was not a distinction between venues (concert hall or church) = but between live and recorded music in a worship service.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:47:32 -0400   On 4/27/04 10:13 AM, "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:   > Is it the quality of the performance, or something else?   I'd say it's not the quality. But it IS something else. More later.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:24:07 -0400   On 4/27/04 10:13 AM, "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:   > Hello, > > This is all terribly worthy and religious, but I wonder why it is, that = Handel > wrote "Messiah" for performance in theatres/secular venues rather than > churches?   I'm not sure whether it's all that "religious," but maybe. I think it's just "human." The poor kid from a poor family who swipes a potted plant = to give to his mother on Mother's Day might be criticized for "giving a gift that is not his to give." But. . . . (Oh, ethical dilemmas!)   "Why . . . Handel"? Born in Bonn, I suppose he was (at least nominally) a Lutheran. Maybe he didn't want to favor either the Anglicans or the nonconformists? Or they wouldn't let him charge a few crowns' admission = at a church? (As Randy says, I don't think the venue is a matter of much import.) > > It has often been said that "Messiah" has gained more converts than all = the > sermons ever written; and I tend to agree with that statement.   And I wouldn't "fight you" on that. But I doubt it. There HAVE been some pretty effective preachers. But there's been some pretty effective MUSIC too! (It IS presumptuous, but I'll bet that even you, Colin, would "like" the preaching of the guy I hear each Sunday. NOT what you'd even CALL preaching, I suspect.) > > Professional musicians, like (presumably) professional mediums, are able = to > switch on to the "spirit" of a performance, sing/play and depart to the = bar > afterwards!   Yeah, yeah! And preachers too! > > How do we judge what is an "offering" and what is a "non-offering?"   No answer yet, but, to work on it: Consider the lady who dropped two = copper coins in the bucket and was praised by Jesus for giving more than all the fat cats had put in there.   Consider the Little Drummer Boy, who had nothing to offer to the BVM or whomever. And realized he could offer his (poor?) drum-playing.   Or any of the old stories, like the French one about the juggler, who had nothing to offer, but wanted to offer SOMETHING. So he went to the shrine or whatever, and juggled. It was the "BEST THING" he had; he offered it. = I think that may be "key" to defining not only "offering" but "very worthy offering." > > Is it the quality of the performance, or something else? > > Please enlighten us!   Hey, who can do that? (See above.) > > My guess is that in a recording, we are listening to an alien acoustic = being > modified by an equally alien acoustic; often through dubious audio. > > Would the same not apply to a Beethoven Symphony heard on a beach radio? > Just got an interruption; I'll get back again.   Alan      
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:43:24 -0400   On 4/27/04 10:13 AM, "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:   > One thing I can tell you...... >=20 > When Benjamin Britten conducted the recording of the Bach, St.John Passio= n, > and invited the then wonderful "Wandsworth Boy's Choir" to be part of the > recording session, during the interval, there were lumps of young chorist= ers > weeping together in the cloisters....and these were not church choristers= .. >=20 A cynic might accuse Sir Benjamin of emotional abuse of the kids.   Don=B9t think that being church choristers or not has much to do with it. Genuinely churchy folks bawl in church too=8Bquite a bit. And probably more from effect of music than anything else.   What I THINK you=B9re illustrating is that moments of surpassing beauty (or horror?) can be immensely affecting. If I got that right, then I certainly agree with you. It=B9s just =B3human.=B2   Or perhaps you=B9re suggesting that the boys became conscious of the fact tha= t this music was beyond just =B3pretty music,=B2 but was, in some vague way, =B3worship,=B2 =B3sung to God.=B2 And that THAT awareness was somehow very affecting, TOO. Could happen.   Alan      
(back) Subject: Re: wedding: United Church of Christ From: "brade" <beveland@millsauto.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:34:04 -0500   Having worked in the UCC denomination for three years now, I would venture to guess that the church has no formal "written" policy regarding the = issue. I believe these issues are decided at the congregational level and there = is no broad written policy for the denomination.   The church I play for did not have a policy years ago but that was quickly rectified. I believe the policy has one of those..."final decision to be made by the pastor" lines in it.   Sounds like you need a policy change right after this wedding. Good luck!    
(back) Subject: Re: wedding: United Church of Christ From: "brade" <beveland@millsauto.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:35:58 -0500   Re: wedding: United Church of ChristI have played for several same sex = weddings and have found them to be VERY traditional. Lots of music with = all the pomp and circumstance.  
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:30:44 -0400   On 4/27/04 10:13 AM, "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:   > My guess is, that in a recording, we are listening to an alien acoustic = being > modified by an equally alien acoustic; often through dubious audio. > > Would the same not apply to a Beethoven Symphony heard on a beach radio? > > One thing I can tell you...... > > When Benjamin Britten conducted the recording of the Bach, St.John = Passion, > and invited the then wonderful "Wandsworth Boy's Choir" to be part of = the > recording session, during the interval, there were lumps of young = choristers > weeping together in the cloisters....and these were not church = choristers. > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > > > --- Noel Stoutenburg <mjolnir@ticnet.com> wrote: >> Alan Freed wrote: >> >>> I think the only thing we can sacrifice is >> something that is ours in >>> the first place > >> I have come to hold the position that the biggest >> impediment with the >> use of recordings in worship stems most often that >> the recordings are >> not made with the intention of an offering. Because >> of the fact that >> when the choir of St. Paul's Cathedral (London, UK) >> made their marvelous >> set of recordings of nearly the entire Psalter, they >> were doing so with >> the intention of making the recording, not with the >> intention of making >> the offering    
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:53:30 -0400   On 4/27/04 2:30 PM, "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> wrote:   > On 4/27/04 10:13 AM, "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > >> My guess is, that in a recording, we are listening to an alien acoustic = being >> modified by   OOOOps! Above accidentally sent, when it should've been dumped. Sorry.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:56:42 -0500   Colin Mitchell wrote:   >How do we judge what is an "offering" and what is a >"non-offering?" > > >Is it the quality of the performance, or something >else? > >Please enlighten us! > For me it is the intention of the those singing what was recorded. Consider on the one had, the recording of a regular church service includes a choir singing Stanford's Anthem "The Lord is my Shepherd", and some rather good examples of prayers by the officiant. In my view, this is an offering because those involved intended it to be one. The same music, and the same prayers recorded for other purposes, raising money for a choir trip for examples, or as didactic information for a colloquy on extemporaneous prayer, are intended as something else here.   And I concede that the world is not segregated as I seem to suggest it to be; doubtless many voluntaries have been played and sermons preached because there had to be a sermon or voluntary, and not with the intention that it needed to be an offering, and in like manner, that musicians have had the intention of making an offering when they produced a commercial recording. I submit these are worthy candidates to replace the electronic vs. pipes business that comes up here every now and again.   I should also note that it is my sincere belief that it is well within the power of the Holy Spirit to take anything anyone does, whether or not that person is a believer, and with no regard for what the intention was of the musician or preacher at the time (or any other person, for that matter) and use that for his own ends, just as the Holy Spirit used the actions of the kings of Babylon, when they took Judah into captivity, as his agents. So, too, the Holy Spirit can use a recording of Messiah to convert a soul. Still, I don't consider that sufficient reason to use a recording of Messiah in a church service.   ns    
(back) Subject: Friday, April 30: Simon Preston in Delaware From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:00:10 -0400   According to a poster received a few days ago:   Simon Preston will give a recital Friday, April 30, 7:30 p.m. at   Christ Church, Christiana Hundred, Greenville, Delaware. = www.christchurchde.org   $10 donation at the door.   For further information, call (302) 655-3379.   This is a suburban church just north or northwest of Wilmington, posh = and charming but not large. One would best arrive early to be sure of = a seat.   The organ is a generous three-manual Brombaugh, mechanical action but of = eclectic design. Even though the building's acoustics (dryish) and the = organ's location (pipework divided on both sides of the chancel, = terraced console among the cantoris choir stalls, organist facing south) = may not be musically or logistically ideal, it makes a clean, dramatic, = and robust sound.      
(back) Subject: RE: wedding: United Church of Christ From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:48:14 -0500   What - no bickering and tantrums?   =20   ________________________________   From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of brade Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:36 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: wedding: United Church of Christ   =20   I have played for several same sex weddings and have found them to be VERY traditional. Lots of music with all the pomp and circumstance.      
(back) Subject: hey Yall...a note of invite From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:16:24 -0700 (PDT)   Sunday May 16th 2004 at 4:00 PM the choir of THEE First Baptist = Congregational Church in Chicago will be celebrating its annivearsary. Its = a big celebration and a big organ...the famous Kimball. The theme for the = celebration will be Music by Black Composers Alive and Living in Chicago. = They have chosen my Organ compositions and I wil be among the guests of = honor. Also will be Keith Hampton, another wonderful Chicago Organist and = his choral Music, Lena McLin, Director of Choral Activities at Chicago's = Kenwood Academy and someone else who I cant remember. The mix wil be = choral, organ, and voice solo I believe, and very ecclectic, from high = church to "greazy gospel", but all the music will be by...well...see = above. If anyone is in town come see it. Art Griffin Jr is the organist and a = damned good one at that. Grad of Concordia River Forest and also organist = at St Malachy's church...a building from 1892...with a wonderful Rodgers = 957 (yes its wonderful!!...purists ...put a sock in it)...Byzyntine = architecture, 60 foot high ceilings, solid marble, 7 seconds rebverb. I = record there a lot. Its heaven!     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
(back) Subject: Fisk Organ at Lausanne Cathedral, First CD From: "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:42:30 -0400   The first recording of the new C. B. Fisk organ at the Cathedral in Lausanne, Switzerland, is now available on the opening page at http://www.ohscatalog.org. The organ is the first to have been built in = the U. S. for a European cathedral, and its resources include five manuals and 124 ranks of pipes, three ranks of which are at 32' pitch.    
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:15:34 +0100   Is it one way of defining 'good' or 'true' art ?   That it contains that element of being able to 'move' the viewer / = listener, irrespective of their culture or creed; be it - and I use musical = examples, although we could equally talk about other forms of artistic expression - = a 'religious' work being performed by an agnostic (the Red Army Choir = singing Cwm Rhonda), or someone from a different period of history (myself playing Bach), or someone from a different culture (Yo-yo Mar playing Elgar), or listening to an instrument which you have never heard of before, or a = singer in a different language.... the list goes on.   As for enlightenment ! Here ? On the Internet ?   Harry [MusicMan] Grove _______________ -----Original Message----- From: Noel Stoutenburg <mjolnir@ticnet.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: 27 April 2004 19:46 Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise     >Colin Mitchell wrote: > >>Is it the quality of the performance, or something >>else? >    
(back) Subject: Re: Genuine sacrifice of praise From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:39:13 -0400   On 4/27/04 6:15 PM, "MusicMan" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> wrote:   > Is it one way of defining 'good' or 'true' art ? > > That it contains that element of being able to 'move' the viewer / = listener, > irrespective of their culture or creed; be it - and I use musical = examples, > although we could equally talk about other forms of artistic expression = -   I'm thinking, Harry; I'm thinking. Superb questions, and excellent examples.   I'm inclined to be a bit uncertain. Sounds a bit too "subjective" for me.   But I'm re-reading (for the ninth time?) your first major sentence = (above).   I think I need an "overnight" (or so) on this. I'm truly a rather superficial thinker, and you've asked a rather profound question. Or so.   Alan    
(back) Subject: [LONG] A few organs in the Ozarks foothills and Delta plains, part 3 of 3 From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:27:18 -0500   A few organs in the Ozark foothills and Delta plains Part 3 of 3     The next morning I prepared for church, had breakfast, and stopped for gas. Here my adventures continued, for within the few minutes it took to pump gas I lost my gas credit card. After a frantic search for five minutes, I called Rick, and feeling very blonde (which I am), asked him (more like groveled) to cancel it ASAP.   Then I attended my first service at a liturgical Baptist church. The service resembled more a stripped (less readings, no creeds) and streamlined ELCA service than an Episcopal one (I say this because I have spent some time lately in an ELCA church and found a closer resemblance to that service). They had retained the traditional congregational responses.   The pastor, C. Welton Gaddy, spends his weekdays in Washington, D.C., as head of an organization that lobbies for separation between Church and State. He was an interesting man, and I enjoyed talking with him. The flowers on the altar were to die for, and I wanted to clone Keith, the guy I dubbed "the altar guild from hell". The congregation all seemed dedicated and friendly, and I truly enjoyed meeting and worshipping with them. It was obvious that Sand and his congregation shared a mutual love for each other.   One of the recent threads has discussed the competition of the prelude with the congregational chatter. I must say that Sand's church has come up with a satisfactory solution. Sand played two preludes, and the minister came up to the front and sat silently during them, setting an example by his quiet meditation. Then he stood and made announcements before the actual introit by servers and choir. There were no distracting conversations while I listened to Sand play "Sing Praise to God, who Reigns Above" by Emma Lou Diemer, and 'Partita on "Marching to Zion"' by Jon Spong. I was instantly transported back to Zion National Park, of which I think every time I hear that song.   The service consisted of:   Preludes Greetings Call to worship Processional hymn Scripture Voluntary or quiet music (in lieu of gradual) Pastoral prayer Hymn Gospel with preface Choir anthem Sermon Presentation of communion with equivalent of a Sursam Corda Eucharistic and Lord's Prayer Communion with anthem Response by congregation Hymn Commission and blessing Postlude   I enjoyed the postlude, but do not remember what it was. I was already in the throes of sadness that my mini-vacation was about to be over. All too soon it was time for me to drive back to Little Rock so that I could fly home. But my challenges were not over, for I topped a hill in Bastrop, Louisiana, and met a cop with a radar gun. I knew I was in deep kimchee. Fishing out my Florida driver's license, my insurance card and rental car agreement for the Arkansas vehicle, I awaited in miserable silence as the ticket was written. I was told I was given a break, but "75 in a 65 zone" still costs $190.50. Needless to say, I immediately discovered how to use the cruise control on the Nissan Altima for the remainder of the trip, and will lobby the legislature to up the Florida speeding tickets (just kidding). I knew Rick would ground me and forbid any more trips alone involving rental cars.   I remembered little of the return trip, except that but for stopping a complete stranger and fellow traveler in airport security I would never have found my terminal at Dallas/Fort Worth. I made it to ground and home sometime before midnight, and fell unconscious in my own bed, sleeping through most of the next day.   Thanks to all who made this delightful trip possible - I enjoyed everything but the faulty door, the missing gas card and the speeding ticket. A special thanks to Joe, Wayne, David, Tim, Jorge, Bryan, Ken and Joey of Nichols & Simpson; Sand Lawn for taking good care of me in Monroe; Jim Maase, Phil Bordeleau, and Charles Eve who granted us access to the organs and met with us; Travis Evans who patiently bore my playing; the good-looking stranger at the American Airlines terminal at Dallas/Fort Worth that pointed me to the Delta terminal; and Rick for not ragging me too badly about acting like a blonde and getting into so much trouble.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com Rule #4 for lawyers: A lack of due diligence on your part does not create an emergency on my part.        
(back) Subject: Re: [LONG] A few organs in the Ozark foothills and Delta plains, part 2 of 3 From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:39:12 -0400   On 4/25/04 8:59 PM, "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> wrote:   > All my chartreuse is linen,   Well, surely there's at least one that comes in a bottle?   Alan    
(back) Subject: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:36:17 -0700 (PDT)   Hey people... Of course some know that I have bit.... about the organ at my church since = I got the job. OK The organ is getting worse and I have found out some very disturbing = things about the company and their relationship with my church: like = charging $23,000 to releather 7 stops. 7 STOPS! Thats a lot of damned = money for 7...old...stops! Also in our discovery as I work with our local Rodgers dealer on getting a = Ruffatti/Rodgers,we found out that this company has been sued...and that 4 = other churches have have very faulty experience with this company. question: Should AIO, APOBA and the liking "defrock" and badge these types of = companies with Scarlet O's for such fraudulent practices? Lady Desiree'   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
(back) Subject: Fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:12:21 -0500   "T.Desiree' Hines" wrote: > The organ is getting worse and I have found out some very disturbing > things about the company and their relationship with my church: like > charging $23,000 to releather 7 stops. 7 STOPS! Thats a lot of damned > money for 7...old...stops!   Let's play "Devil's Advocate" here and ask some questions:   1) Did the aforementioned company have a contract with the church and did it specify how much for the work?   2) Is there anything unusual about the installation that makes access to = do the work difficult?   3) Are conditions of access to the church difficult? Like, does parking have to be paid for (this IS an in-town Chicago church, right?)   4) Is the result satisfactory? IOW: is the repaired Windchests performing correctly? > Also in our discovery as I work with our local Rodgers dealer on getting > a Ruffatti/Rodgers,we found out that this company has been sued...and > that 4 other churches have have very faulty experience with this = company.   Sorry, but I would take NOTHING that a competitor says as "Gospel", especially one that is connected with a pipeless company. That's called "posturing" (making someone else look good at someone else's expense!) > question: > Should AIO, APOBA a nd the liking "defrock" and badge these types of > companies with Scarlet O's for such fraudulent practices?   If the company said they were going to charge "X" amount to do a job, and the church agreed to the company doing the the job for "X" amount, and the job was done, correctly for "X" amount, there is no fraud. Even if "X" = was a million dollars, that's NOT the issue. The issue from a LEGAL = standpoint is if the church got what they contracted for for the price for which it was contracted. There's TOO many unanswered questions here.   Faithfully,   G.A.   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE (217) 944-2527 FAX arpschneider@starband.net Home Office EMAIL arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS