PipeChat Digest #4459 - Wednesday, April 28, 2004
 
RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all?
  by "Wm. G. Chapman" <wchapmn@attglobal.net>
Pipe Organ looking for a new home X-Posted
  by "Charlie Jack" <Charlie@Jack.NET>
A question about Proulx
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
RE: A question about Proulx
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all?
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: A question about Proulx
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Handel's Messiah
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all?
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Handel's Messiah
  by "Blair Anderson" <bda@shaw.ca>
Fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: Fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: wedding: United Church of Christ
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
RE: A question about Proulx
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all?
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "Wm. G. Chapman" <wchapmn@attglobal.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:25:40 -0400   Desiree': =20 I presume that you are saying that the business people at the church had = no sense whatsoever and were fools when they considered the work and the potential workers? Just what was the scope of work? What makes you think that the problem was spending too much instead of spending too little? =20 The "dealer" would be wise to remember that if he can't say anything = nice he should not say anything at all. And, personally, I would find someone = else to deal with if the only way he can get the work is by throwing mud. Remember: The person who is out in front is the one with arrows in his = back.   =20 Just my .002 worth, =20 Wm. G. Chapman West Point, NY   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of T.Desiree' Hines Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 8:36 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all?     Hey people... Of course some know that I have bit.... about the organ at my church = since I got the job.=20 OK=20 The organ is getting worse and I have found out some very disturbing = things about the company and their relationship with my church: like charging $23,000 to releather 7 stops. 7 STOPS! Thats a lot of damned money for 7...old...stops!=20 =20 Also in our discovery as I work with our local Rodgers dealer on getting = a Ruffatti/Rodgers,we found out that this company has been sued...and that = 4 other churches have have very faulty experience with this company.=20 =20 question: Should AIO, APOBA and the liking "defrock" and badge these types of companies with Scarlet O's for such fraudulent practices? =20 Lady Desiree'=20       _____ =20   Do you Yahoo!? Win <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/hotjobs/hotjobs_mail_signatu= re_ footer_textlink/evt=3D23983/*http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careerm= akeov er> a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs=20      
(back) Subject: Pipe Organ looking for a new home X-Posted From: "Charlie Jack" <Charlie@Jack.NET> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:58:43 -0400   The following pipe organ is looking for a new home. It is in a church that has been purchased by a developer who will convert it to condominiums. The organ has to go. He had listed it through the Organ Clearing House at $16,000.00 but had no serious takers at that price. He is now offering the instrument for free providing the taker remove it from the church.   Builder: Roy Carlson (Boston) circa 1902 rebuilt circa 1960.   Action: EP, Three manuals and pedal in detached console. I believe the chests are Pittman with direct electric offsets but don't hold me to it.   Approximate size: 30' W x 20' high by 7' deep. Has non playing facade pipes.   Swell: 8' Gedeckt 8' Gamba 8' Gamba Celeste 4' Prestant III Scharff 16' Fagot 8' Trumpet 4' Hautbois (ext 16') Tremulant 16' Swell to Swell Swell unison off 4' Swell to Swell   Great: 8' Principal 8' Bourdon 4' Octave 2 2/3' Twelfth 2' Fifteenth III Fourniture Tremulant Chimes 16' Great to Great Great unison off 4' Great to Great 16' Swell to Great (other couplers not recorded)   Choir: 8' Viole de Gambe 8' Dolcan 8' Rohrflote (No 13-61 open wood) 2' 2/3 Nazard 2' Piccolo 1 3/5' Tierce Tremulant 16' Choir to Choir Choir Unison Off 4' Choir to Choir 16' Swell to Choir (other couplers not recorded)   Pedal: 32' Resultant 16' Principal 16' Bourdon 16' Lieblich Bourdon (ext. Swell) 8' Octave (ext) 8' Flute (ext) 4' Choral Bass (ext) 2' Principal (ext) 16' Fagot (Swell) Chimes 8' Swell to Pedal 4' Swell to Pedal 8' Great to Pedal 8' Choir to Pedal   The organ seems to be in decent shape and when we visited was playable although it had a few ciphers of couple of which cleared when we cleaned out some dirt and reseated the offending pipe.   I am merely an intermediary here but would be happy to see the instrument find a new home rather than turn into scrap wood and metal. The late Berj Zamkochian played it some years ago for a friend's wedding and stated that it was a fine instrument.   If interested please contact me and I will answer what questions I can and put put you in touch with the developer who can arrange an inspection.   Charlie Jack Charlie@Jack.NET or GomidasOrgan@Comcast.NET (508)-254-5925   -- Charlie Jack Charlie@Jack.NET  
(back) Subject: A question about Proulx From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:46:59 -0500   I noticed that the 1982 Hymnal uses Proulx's Sanctus from his "Community Mass", but I found no references to other service music from this in the Hymnal. Does anyone else use other service music from this and like it? And where would I find the complete service?   Thanks.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com          
(back) Subject: RE: A question about Proulx From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:20:01 -0500   I like the whole thing. GIA http://www.giamusic.com/home.cfm publishes = the "Community Mass" as a separate publication and most, if not all of it, is = in their Worship III hymnal. Not sure if it's in their more "contemporary" hymnals since Proulx isn't a "contemporary" composer although he is certainly a contemporary composer. Depends on what "is" is,,,,,,, I = guess.   michael     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Glenda Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 8:47 PM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: A question about Proulx     I noticed that the 1982 Hymnal uses Proulx's Sanctus from his "Community Mass", but I found no references to other service music from this in the Hymnal. Does anyone else use other service music from this and like it? And where would I find the complete service?   Thanks.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com      
(back) Subject: RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:26:37 -0700 (PDT)   Alright already! Gees...try to come ack regularly and people question my thoughts. lol OK people...I know i know! But let me tell you this. There's a lot..a LOT that they did not do with = the organ at my church. and a lot they did do. Have you ever heard of an = organ bulider getting a toeboard that is too big for the pipes, then = cementing apiece of leather against the bottom of the pipe to keep it = from wiggling? Did any maintainance/rebuild firms in 1970 claim that = capture type (or what ever type that is where you hold the piston and = press "click"the stops to set them) was NEW? Should an organ that was = rebuilt well in 1970 need the swell bellows releathered in 1973? should a = swell that was releathered in 1984 need releathering in 2002? Was'nt = Reisner action old in the 70's? I dunno. Tell me. Have you ever heard of = any organ builders/maintainence persons "creating" tuning slides buy using = pipe metal, bending it around the pipe, and wrapping leather around it if = the pipes were cone tuned before, or if the tuning slides were bad? = should any organ need 11 major repair jobs, in addition to regular work, over the period of 1970-2004 if it was rebuilt in 1970? I = dunno..you tell me. Hell, it may be very ethical what they have done. Im = in the air just trying to find a perch. and as far as your question..yes...the last 2 business managers at the = church were frankly dumba####. Because of them, theres a lot of finances = that the new business manager has cracked a whip at. AND with me being = there...I know good organ building when i hear and see it...and this is = questionable. So...the two of us being new, have been charged to move = forward with getting to the bottom line on what needs to be done. Yes we are in the city, but in a neighboorhood. The company that did the = work is only a 30 minute drive away.   Lady Desiree'   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
(back) Subject: Re: A question about Proulx From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:29:02 EDT   Glenda, Proulx's "Community Mass" is published by GIA. BH SJE    
(back) Subject: Handel's Messiah From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:31:40 -0500   Colin asked about Handel's Messiah being performed originally in a secular venue. Some of you have a lot more music background than I, but I = remember being told (College music apprec?) that his style was considered "too secular" for a church venue at the time he wrote it.   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats    
(back) Subject: RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 19:33:26 -0700 (PDT)   oops what type of combo action was new in 1970? Solid State..right? So the people we work with said that the old type was new in 1970 (i think = i have read it asbeing "tripper") was new...ya know...the type where you = hold the piston...give it a little shove and the stop "clicks" to set in = place.   Miss D   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
(back) Subject: Re: Handel's Messiah From: "Blair Anderson" <bda@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 22:22:57 -0500   On 4/27/04 9:31 PM, "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> wrote:   > Colin asked about Handel's Messiah being performed originally in a secula= r > venue. Some of you have a lot more music background than I, but I rememb= er > being told (College music apprec?) that his style was considered "too > secular" for a church venue at the time he wrote it.   Gentle ListFolk:   There was a great deal of controversy surrounding Handel's choral works at the time, particularly from The Church of England for what they considered his notorious practice of writing biblical dramas such as "Esther" and "Israel in Egypt" to be performed in secular theatres, not in churches.   In 1741, on the brink of being sent to debtor's prison, he received first a libretto from his good friend Charles Jensen and then a commission from a Dublin charity foundation to compose a work for a benefit performance. He completed the entire 260 pages in only 24 days! It is important to note tha= t the work is not "The Messiah" but just "Messiah".   "Messiah" premiered on April 13, 1742 as a charitable benefit, raising 400 pounds and freeing 142 men from debtor's prison - a remarkable event at the time.=A0 A year later, Handel staged "Messiah" in London. Controversy emanating from the Church of England continued to plague Handel, yet the King of England attended the London performance. As the first notes of the triumphant "Hallelujah Chorus" rang out, the King rose.=A0 Following the roya= l protocol, the entire audience stood too, initiating a tradition that has lasted more than two centuries.   Handel was a deeply religious and spiritual man, generous with his sometime= s meagre resources. It is quoted that Handel didn't care where "Messiah" was performed was long as the performances raised money for charities and charitable purposes.   CHEERS! Blair...   _________________________________________ "The above message is not fault-tolerant and is not designed, manufactured or intended for use or resale as on-line control equipment in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communication systems, or air traffic control machines in which the failure of the message could lead directly to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage."    
(back) Subject: Fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:10:22 -0500   "T.Desiree' Hines" wrote:   > There's a lot..a LOT that they did not do with the organ at my > church. and a lot they did do.   Anything beyond emergency or routine maintenance and/or tuning should be reduced to a contract that spells out what is to be done, how it is to be done so that there is something verifiable. From what I'm reading, this was not done. Not your fault, but apparently, as you say, the past Business Managers needed a few lessons in contract negotiation.   An ethical organbuilder will OFFER a contract without having to be ASKED for one.   > Have you ever heard of an organ bulider getting a toeboard > that is too big for the pipes, then cementing apiece of leather against = the bottom of the > pipe to keep it from wiggling?   It sounds as though different ranks of pipes may have been substituted in place of whatever was originally there. In the 1970's there was a "craze" to "baroque-ize" instruments by substituting small-scaled, high-pitched ranks in place of ponderous old stops.   A professional job would have involved re-racking the pipes and at least gasketing on a new Toeboard that would have had the correct-sized holes.   > Did any maintainance/rebuild firms in 1970 claim that > capture type (or what ever type that is where you hold the piston and = press "click"the > stops to set them) was NEW?   New to the church in any event. Perhaps they were trying to indicate that the existing system was going to be replaced with something new, and not that the technology itself was something new. . . It doesn't sound as though there was a clearly or concisely-written contract.   > Should an organ that was rebuilt well in 1970 need the swell > bellows releathered in 1973? should a swell that was releathered in 1984 = need releathering > in 2002?   In a country church, provided it was done correctly; prolly not. In Chicago, given the pollution situation; then prolly yes! One factor is = how heavily an instrument gets used. I'm sure you'd have no way of knowing that, unless someone put an "hour meter" on the blower (not a bad idea at all, actually!) Another factor was that leather that was available back at that point was not nearly as well-tanned as what is available today. Some leather, as a matter of fact, was tanned in SEWAGE! This was a MAJOR issue for ALL Organbuilders, which led to "experimental" substitutes like "Perflex" (which also utterly failed and had to be replaced VERY shortly after installation!); as well as some serious research on leather tanning methods by Harley Piltingsruud that culminated in the wholesale reintroduction of chrome tanning methods to leather for organbuilding use.   > Have you ever heard of any organ builders/maintainence persons = "creating" tuning slides buy using pipe metal, > bending it around the pipe, and wrapping leather around it if the pipes = were cone tuned > before, or if the tuning slides were bad?   Many things are done in a pinch. I've seen Tomato Soup Cans pressed into service, but if a professional project was done where the pipes were removed from the instrument, cleaned, straightened and properly conserved, they would be fitted with new tuning slides properly fitted and look as though they've always been there.   should any organ need 11 major repair jobs, in > addition to regular work, over the period of 1970-2004 if it was rebuilt = in 1970? I > dunno..you tell me.   Older instrument in major metropolitan areas can present their own set of challenges, but the wildcard here is whether or not a comprehensive "re-build" has actually been done or simply a patchwork of repair jobs on an "as-needed" basis. From the descriptions you've indicated, I'd say it was the latter.   > Hell, it may be very ethical what they have done. Im in the air just > trying to find a perch.   There's really still not enough information upon which to base a categorical answer, but the descriptions you've offered suggest that whatever work was done was not necessarily done to the highest standards = of organbuilding practice. This is why contracts which spell-out the details and descriptions of the work to be performed are so important for everyone's protection.   > Yes we are in the city, but in a neighboorhood. The company that did the = work is only a > 30 minute drive away.   The real question is: does this church have off-street parking? I = recently looked at a job in Chicago and we had all we could do to get our rig (an F-350 SD 4 door pickup) parked ANYwhere within walking-distance of the place. I shudder to imagine what will happen when we bring our 24' van truck up to cart off the organ for renovation! We'll prolly have to close the street with the aid and abetment of the Chicago Police Department! It's not the DISTANCE from the shop that's so much of an issue as much as it is the conditions immediately surrounding the church.   I hope you can sort this all out satisfactorily. Do ask several builders to evaluate the instrument and look for similarities in what they report = to you. If someone says something ENTIRELY out of the norm, especially if the price is dirt-cheap, be VERY suspicious of a "low-ball" tactic to get a foot in the door. Today, we all buy time and for organbuilders, it is = VERY expensive. IT cannot be helped, given the very real coats of things like overhead, fuel, insurance, etc.   Faithfully,   G.A. -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE (217) 944-2527 FAX arpschneider@starband.net Home Office EMAIL arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS  
(back) Subject: Re: Fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:46:01 -0700 (PDT)   Yup...we have a huge parking lot thats on site....not even a parking meter = around, nor permit parking. 2 people are comign to do evaluations soon     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
(back) Subject: Re: wedding: United Church of Christ From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 01:30:08 EDT   Hello pstorandt@okcu.edu,     In reference to your comment: What =E2=80=93 no bickering and tantrums?=20       From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of brad= e Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:36 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: wedding: United Church of Christ=20 I have played for several same sex weddings and have found them to be VERY=20 traditional. Lots of music with all the pomp and circumstance Nope. That's for AFTER the wedding. <grin>   Victoria    
(back) Subject: RE: A question about Proulx From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 00:29:27 -0500   It is in the Catholic Community Hymnal, in the Service Music Section. This hymnal mixes traditional and contemporary music. One of my favorite Masses is Setting II from this hymnal which is by Steven Janco.   Alicia Zeilenga       -----Original Message----- From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 21:20:01 -0500 Subject: RE: A question about Proulx   > I like the whole thing. GIA http://www.giamusic.com/home.cfm publishes > the > "Community Mass" as a separate publication and most, if not all of it, > is in > their Worship III hymnal. Not sure if it's in their more > "contemporary" > hymnals since Proulx isn't a "contemporary" composer although he is > certainly a contemporary composer. Depends on what "is" is,,,,,,, I > guess. > > michael > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Glenda > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 8:47 PM > To: 'PipeChat' > Subject: A question about Proulx > > > I noticed that the 1982 Hymnal uses Proulx's Sanctus from his > "Community > Mass", but I found no references to other service music from this in > the > Hymnal. Does anyone else use other service music from this and like > it? > And where would I find the complete service? > > Thanks. > > Glenda Sutton > gksjd85@direcway.com > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 00:51:19 -0500   This is a good discussion. I'm glad to hear someone playing devils = advocate here. It _does_ sound like there have been some questionable things going =   on. Mainly, taking advantage of an unknowledgeable customer. But I don't =   really see anything inherently wrong with most of what has been done, = except it sounds like there may have been dishonesty about what was done and therefore prices. The thing is, if money grew on trees we would restore every organ from top to bottom as soon as it started showing signs of wear =   and tear. However, money does not grow on trees and therefore sometimes = you have to do things to get by and sometimes you can put off a restoration = for many years quite inexpensively. The problem is when you do things that = are irreversible, like using modern "yellow" glue where animal glues ought to = be used, etc. And one must not charge as much money for a temporary repair = as a permanent one!   For example, I am guilty of putting duct tape between opened sponsils on = old tracker organs to stop a cipher. A cheap, temporary repair? Sure. But = the alternative? Taking the whole friggin organ apart and retabling the = chest. If you have to put on a new piece of duct tape every time you tune for 30 years, it possibly could still be cheaper than retabling. I'm not saying this is always the way to go. But should always be a consideration. Depends on many variables, such as the condition of the rest of the organ, =   whether the organ fits the musical needs of the church and may get = replaced someday, etc. But I sure don't charge $20,000 for a piece of duct tape, = or call it a restoration.   To touch closer to home, if I am restoring an organ and money is tight (or =   even if it isn't... just because money isn't tight doesn't mean you should =   go throwing it around) and the bellows isn't too buried, and it looks like =   it might last 3 more years, I suggest to the congregation to wait. Of course, if you have to remove half the organ to get to it, better do it during the restoration.   I do not really see anything wrong with leather patches on the feet of = pipes to adapt them to a toeboard, if done carefully. Theoretically should save =   money over a new toeboard. Especially if the toeboard is not easily = removed from the chest. If the toeboards are not separate, you would have to take =   the whole chest back to the shop to make the change. BIG BUCKS! Problem = is when you cut a corner, but charge as much money as if you didn't cut the corner, and don't inform the church of what you are doing. Of course, tis = a shame that so many nice strings were turned into screeching upperwork, but =   hey, everyone was doing it. (upperwork is good, but not the screeching kind).   Over and over I see things from both sides, and both sides are often a little bit right. As the "devils advocate" said (sorry, I've forgotten = who you are), it sounds like we could have some questionable practices going = on here. The many thousands of dollar releathering job does sound = suspicious! But then... did the pouchboards need work? Replacement? I have built new =   replacement skinner pouchboards and pitman rails (old ones were water damaged), and let me tell you, when doing them in small batches from measurements of old ones (as opposed to a factory mass-production situation), you get into the 5 digits fast! Holy cow, that was a pain in the neck. Etc, etc. Really does depend on what was agreed upon, and what =   damage was discovered.   I just can't help but be another devils advocate because so many times I = see an organ replaced for gazillions of dollars because they got a quote of gazillions of dollars to have the old one fully restored, when a little leather here and there and other minor repairs could have put off the restoration another 20 years. And so the people in the church will say "organs are SO expensive to maintain!!" and soon everyone gives up on the idea that pipe organs have any kind of longevity. But you do the latter, and you get labeled unethical by the guy who _does_ restore it 20 years later. Can't win!   Don't get me wrong, Desiree, I'm sort of getting on a general soapbox, not =   so much reacting to your specific situation. I really do think you have identified a problem here, mainly because it sounds like temporary repairs =   have been made, for the cost of real restoration. If this is _truly_ the case, you have an unethical organ technician. As someone said, if he did = in the contract what he said he would do, he did nothing illegal. However, I =   think it could still be construed as unethical (maybe not in the legal sense) even if the church agreed, if they were not properly informed of their options and what they were really getting. It is this sort of technician that ultimately leads to making the electronic organ saleman = rich.   Andy     A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com