PipeChat Digest #4460 - Wednesday, April 28, 2004 When building/rebuilding an organ by "Stephanie Gilgut" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: wedding: United Church of Christ by "brade" <email@example.com> Re: Pipe Organ looking for a new home X-Posted by "John Vanderlee" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Caveat Emptor vs. Barnes' 'Contemporary American Organ'; was "Fraudulent. by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re: Handel's Messiah by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE:Fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Re: Handel's Messiah by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? by "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? by "Paul Valtos" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? by "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: When building/rebuilding an organ From: "Stephanie Gilgut" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:49:03 -0400 A little more on this subject... It's best to go with a known, good builder. The one who takes care of your instrument is best, if you feel they are qualified. I don't recommend comparison shopping, unless you really know organs. I say this, because let's take for example, you have three organ builders submit proposals. You get them, and they describe 3 different organs, at perhaps way different prices. Why? Well builder A re-used some of the pipework, will build all new DE chests, skipped the wind system. Builder B gutted it, tossed it, and made it all new. Builder C made the chests DE, releather the reservoirs, added 3 ranks, changed that squawking old vox duck call for a new shiny trumpet. You really need to compare apples to apples here, or really know what your being offered. In another type of misleading case to the un-initiated is unit Vs straight ranks. Many unitized organs have lots of unit ranks speaking at many pitches, and borrowing so that there are lots of stop tabs, but few real pipes. This clearly would impact the price. What the pipework is, will affect it. Is that 32' real, or a resultant? Major difference. Last, in this prime example is the home organ I am building. 2 M/P, 21 stop tabs, 15 thumb pistons, 8 toe. The catch? 2 ranks of pipes - a unit flute, and an extended string, for 170 pipes. It sounds like a lot until you see there are hardly any pipes. (Yes, I will have midi out for a someday expansion) All but 2 of the stop tabs will actually affect the pipes. The other two are for humor value. When I get the new Carey Organ web pages finished, the spec will be online. Ask questions and learn. All the pistons, displays, and such look pretty, but you really wanna know what's under the hood/behind the facade. 8) Happy Spring, Steph -- Stephanie Gilgut email@example.com firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Re: wedding: United Church of Christ From: "brade" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:09:33 -0500 Re: wedding: United Church of ChristNo bridal tempers that I saw. That = must have been taken care of in pastoral counseling. :) What - no bickering and tantrums?
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ looking for a new home X-Posted From: "John Vanderlee" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:59:34 -0700 > The following pipe organ is looking for a new home. People, PLEASE, PLEASE.... This is not the first time I noticed on items being available...... LOCATION.....???? If it is in Portland Oregon i.e. no interst to me. Newark, New Jersey..possibly... That is not to minimize the work of those who help to find homes for these orphans, but we need to know WHERE? John V ( who might have been in error himself and missed he obvious maybe?)
(back) Subject: Caveat Emptor vs. Barnes' 'Contemporary American Organ'; was "Fraudulent..." From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:33:48 EDT Releathering 7 stops? Is that seven ranks of pipes at 61, 73 85 or 97 pipe = per rank? What type of action is involved? One pipe in the average organ = has at least two leather pouch and pneumatic actions. There are also at least one = valve stem with two leather/felt pieces for each pipe. Let's see, 61 pipes = times 7 stops (assuming ranks was inferred here), disassembling the chests... = (etc., etc.,etc.) I'd say this could have been a good deal for the church. If the work was done on site, it becomes an even better deal as on-site = work is often more difficult than taking the work back to the shop. If this were seven stop pistons on the console which was easily accessible = and in an open warm room, the church got taken to the cleaners. If this were a Wicks with electric action, ...(shouldn't those who own = such expensive pipe organs be more familiar with what htey own? ) To answer Desiree's final question, ignorance is no excuse. Every church's = board of trustees ought to own a copy of Barnes "Contemporary American = Organ" to acquaint themselves with the workings of their pipe organ. Musically, Stan Krider In a message dated 04/28/2004 5:02:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Desiree writes: Hey people... Of course some know that I have bit.... about the organ at my church since = I got the job. OK The organ is getting worse and I have found out some very disturbing = things about the company and their relationship with my church: like charging $23,000 to releather 7 stops. 7 STOPS! Thats a lot of damned money for 7...old...stops! Also in our discovery as I work with our local Rodgers dealer on getting a Ruffatti/Rodgers,we found out that this company has been sued...and that 4 other churches have have very faulty experience with this company. question: Should AIO, APOBA and the liking "defrock" and badge these types of companies with Scarlet O's for such fraudulent practices?
(back) Subject: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:45:32 -0400 On 4/27/04 10:26 PM, "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > The company that did the work is only a 30-minute drive away. By pick-up or van, I suppose. So they still have to park. When the Paragallo people work on the organ at St. Patrick=B9s Cathedral, they park right on the (small but adequate) plaza by the front steps of the cathedral= .. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Handel's Messiah From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:49:59 -0400 On 4/27/04 10:31 PM, "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > style was considered "too secular" for a church venue at the time he = wrote it. Dennis, you're probably remembering it just right. At the very least, his style was not fit for "liturgical" use (any more than that of Haydn, = Mozart, and even some Bach). Alan
(back) Subject: RE:Fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:58:08 EDT Greetings Desiree, The best suggestion I can add to this discussion is that you or the church = purchase a copy of Barnes' "Contemporary American Organ" and make sure = that the trustees or whomever is/are responsible for organ maintenance and care = read it often (everytime any problem pops up). I am sure you are familiar with Barnes' work. It is invaluable in the organ builders' trade. I work for a pipe organ company, yet I am a fan of the electronic = instruments when they better suit the situation in which the church finds itself. = Except for the famous Fats Waller, no (I may be wrong, however) church organist = can make pipes swing the way the Hammond organ can. Don't get rid of a pipe organ on the say-so of an electronic competitor. = Do it only on the basis of the church's long term worship needs. All this IMHO! Musically, Stan Krider In a message dated 04/28/2004 5:02:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, email@example.com writes: Yup...we have a huge parking lot thats on site....not even a parking meter = around, nor permit parking. 2 people are comign to do evaluations soon
(back) Subject: Re: Handel's Messiah From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:03:07 -0400 On 4/27/04 11:22 PM, "Blair Anderson" <email@example.com> wrote: > the King of England attended the London performance. As the first notes o= f the > triumphant "Hallelujah Chorus" rang out, the King rose.=A0 Following the ro= yal > protocol, the entire audience stood too, initiating a tradition that has > lasted more than two centuries. I've been itching to ask; now's the time. I think George II was 59 at the time. Any truth to the scurrilous report that he stood simply to step out to the loo for a moment? (The royal box would certainly have had a W.C. only a few feet away.) Or was he cued by a royal chamberlain, "This is the biggie!" =20 Alan
(back) Subject: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 10:17:01 -0400 On 4/28/04 1:51 AM, "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> wrote: > As the "devils advocate" said (sorry, I've forgotten who you are), That was Richard Schneider ("Arp") in somewhat central Illinois. Alan
(back) Subject: RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Andy said: Don't get me wrong, Desiree, I'm sort of getting on a general soapbox, not = so much reacting to your specific situation. I really do think you have identified a problem here, mainly because it sounds like temporary repairs = have been made, for the cost of real restoration. If this is _truly_ the case, you have an unethical organ technician. Desiree' says: Yes this is all very true. The company seems to have done this at the = other churches as well: doing a half-a&& job and calling it full work. And = the two builders that have been here in the last 2 weeks say that they = should be reprimanded for unethical work in extremes. The thing is, they = did all of this stuff, like the leather around the tuning slides, in 1970 = and have called it long term. SO, since im knowledgeable and an organist, = these things have come to light with everyone, and the church continues to = say "thats why we hired you!" And thats just the thing...its not only our = church...its 4 other churches as well that have brought this companies = work to attention. Lady D --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
(back) Subject: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "Paul Valtos" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:11:41 -0400 Dear Andy et al, One of the most surprising things I discovered when working around pipe organs was the absence of 'Value engineering." That is when the = product is built so that you have to remove a million parts to replace a ten cent item. American auto engineers used to be famous in their ability to build cars where it was relatively easy to work on the moving parts. Not anymore but SAE seems to have forgotten that principle. Organ builders never had = it. I assume, not having seen the innards of new builds that it is still done the old way. Why is an organ designed in such a way where it is darn near impossible to tune it. Why is an organ designed in a way that you need to remove the entire top of a reservoir or air chamber to repair a crack? = Being an Aero Engineer, I have seen more crazy designs in organs that do not = make sense except to fatten the wallets of the builder or his successor. If the pipe organ manufacturers want to stay in business, they will have to go = the modular route and, except for those orgnaizations with the gazillions of money, forget the custom innards of pipe organs. If the footprint can't handle all the wind supply, then go vertically rather than shoehorn ten pounds of **** in a 5 pound box. I believe that they do that in Europe = from what I see of designs in the Blue Book of Organs. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: RE: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? > This is a good discussion. I'm glad to hear someone playing devils advocate > here. It _does_ sound like there have been some questionable things = going > on. Mainly, taking advantage of an unknowledgeable customer. But I = don't > really see anything inherently wrong with most of what has been done, except > it sounds like there may have been dishonesty about what was done and > therefore prices. The thing is, if money grew on trees we would restore > every organ from top to bottom as soon as it started showing signs of = wear > and tear. However, money does not grow on trees and therefore sometimes you > have to do things to get by and sometimes you can put off a restoration for > many years quite inexpensively. The problem is when you do things that are > irreversible, like using modern "yellow" glue where animal glues ought = to be > used, etc. And one must not charge as much money for a temporary repair as > a permanent one! > > For example, I am guilty of putting duct tape between opened sponsils on old > tracker organs to stop a cipher. A cheap, temporary repair? Sure. But the > alternative? Taking the whole friggin organ apart and retabling the chest. > If you have to put on a new piece of duct tape every time you tune for = 30 > years, it possibly could still be cheaper than retabling. I'm not = saying > this is always the way to go. But should always be a consideration. > Depends on many variables, such as the condition of the rest of the = organ, > whether the organ fits the musical needs of the church and may get replaced > someday, etc. But I sure don't charge $20,000 for a piece of duct tape, or > call it a restoration. > > To touch closer to home, if I am restoring an organ and money is tight = (or > even if it isn't... just because money isn't tight doesn't mean you = should > go throwing it around) and the bellows isn't too buried, and it looks = like > it might last 3 more years, I suggest to the congregation to wait. Of > course, if you have to remove half the organ to get to it, better do it > during the restoration. > > I do not really see anything wrong with leather patches on the feet of pipes > to adapt them to a toeboard, if done carefully. Theoretically should = save > money over a new toeboard. Especially if the toeboard is not easily removed > from the chest. If the toeboards are not separate, you would have to = take > the whole chest back to the shop to make the change. BIG BUCKS! = Problem is > when you cut a corner, but charge as much money as if you didn't cut the > corner, and don't inform the church of what you are doing. Of course, = tis a > shame that so many nice strings were turned into screeching upperwork, = but > hey, everyone was doing it. (upperwork is good, but not the screeching > kind). > > Over and over I see things from both sides, and both sides are often a > little bit right. As the "devils advocate" said (sorry, I've forgotten who > you are), it sounds like we could have some questionable practices going on > here. The many thousands of dollar releathering job does sound suspicious! > But then... did the pouchboards need work? Replacement? I have built = new > replacement skinner pouchboards and pitman rails (old ones were water > damaged), and let me tell you, when doing them in small batches from > measurements of old ones (as opposed to a factory mass-production > situation), you get into the 5 digits fast! Holy cow, that was a pain = in > the neck. Etc, etc. Really does depend on what was agreed upon, and = what > damage was discovered. > > I just can't help but be another devils advocate because so many times I see > an organ replaced for gazillions of dollars because they got a quote of > gazillions of dollars to have the old one fully restored, when a little > leather here and there and other minor repairs could have put off the > restoration another 20 years. And so the people in the church will > say "organs are SO expensive to maintain!!" and soon everyone gives up = on > the idea that pipe organs have any kind of longevity. But you do the > latter, and you get labeled unethical by the guy who _does_ restore it = 20 > years later. Can't win! > > Don't get me wrong, Desiree, I'm sort of getting on a general soapbox, = not > so much reacting to your specific situation. I really do think you have > identified a problem here, mainly because it sounds like temporary = repairs > have been made, for the cost of real restoration. If this is _truly_ = the > case, you have an unethical organ technician. As someone said, if he = did in > the contract what he said he would do, he did nothing illegal. However, = I > think it could still be construed as unethical (maybe not in the legal > sense) even if the church agreed, if they were not properly informed of > their options and what they were really getting. It is this sort of > technician that ultimately leads to making the electronic organ saleman rich. > > Andy > > > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service > PO Box 111 > Burlington, VT 05402 > (802)578-3936 > Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Administration: mailto:email@example.com > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > >
(back) Subject: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Sigh..gasp... Yall...my church...is near Midway airport.,..and has its own, massive = parking lot...no cost. none...nada...zilch. From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs