PipeChat Digest #4463 - Thursday, April 29, 2004 Re: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? by <Hell-Concerts@t-online.de> Re: "fraudulent" and "unethical" organbuilders by "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: "fraudulent" and "unethical" organbuilders by "Richard Schneider" <email@example.com> Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? by "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? by <OrganMD@aol.com> Re: Swinging in Polite Company by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: <Hell-Concerts@t-online.de> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:13:46 +0200 That is new for me! Is that really called a "tripper" system? In my native language this word means something completely different . So I naturally would hesitate to use this word in such serious circles like organists or church musicians :-) Hans-Friedrich Hell -----Original Message----- Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 03:00:44 +0200 Subject: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: RMaryman@aol.com To: email@example.com In a message dated 4/27/2004 10:34:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: what type of combo action was new in 1970? Solid State..right? So the people we work with said that the old type was new in 1970 (i think i have read it asbeing "tripper") was new...ya know...the type where you hold the piston...give it a little shove and the stop "clicks" to set in place. Miss D well, the truth here is that in 1970 solid-state combination systems were in their infancy and NOT reliable by today's standards. Most new consoles being built in 1970 would have either had the "tripper" system (push and hold piston while setting/clearing stops) or the Reisner Remote Combination system (or variations thereof) which was a mechanical nightmare to rehabilitate if they ever got out of adjustment! Wicks also had an electro-mechanical combination system (in use since the mid 1950's) in a remote box, usually co-located with the relay boxes. and there were the switchboard setter systems for all electric consoles made before the advent of reliable solid-state storage systems. Rick in VA
(back) Subject: Re: "fraudulent" and "unethical" organbuilders From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Well thank you Seb And Ms Hines is my mama...please just call me Desiree' We have everything under control, and Im working on it. I relaly did not = come here to ask a list what to do...thebasic question was...should = unethical work warrant AIO and APOBA to "hotlist" companies who do a = hinder to the trade. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
(back) Subject: Re: "fraudulent" and "unethical" organbuilders From: "Richard Schneider" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:04:28 -0500 Desire=E9 wrote: > the basic question was...should unethical work warrant AIO and APOBA > = to "hotlist" companies who do a hinder to the trade.=20 Generally speaking: Organ folks who do shoddy work do not belong to AIO; much less APOBA! Those organizations cannot "sanction" someone who is not part of their membership. =20 There are liability issues involved for an organization to "blacklist" a company "wholesale". AIO has an Ethics Committee that investigates SPECIFIC instances of blata= nt ethics violations, based upon the Ethics guidelines published by that august body. AIO is NOT empowered to go on a "witchhunt" of an organbuilder; especially for things which were done 35 years ago. The Statutes of Limitations would have LONG ago run out! If you have a matter that you believe should be brought before the AIO Ethics Committee with respect to recent work that was not done as represented, and you find the name of this company amongst the AIO Membership, then by all means, send the documentation to the appropriate Executive Secretary, who will, in turn, forward the complaint to the appropriate people. =20 You can contact Howard Maple at: mailto:email@example.com The AIO Website is found at http://www.pipeorgan.org You may find the Ethics page of special interest. Faithfully, G.A. --=20 Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE (217) 944-2527 FAX firstname.lastname@example.org Home Office EMAIL email@example.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS
(back) Subject: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 20:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Yes Andy YES! And my church is very gracious, and easily "had". So, with my being there, = the first organist they have had that know a little something about = organbuilding etc, its been enlightening for everyone. And they are ready = to instigate fund raising on Sept 1 of this year. The thing that bothers = me is that companies like this get over on all kinds of churches...and = when one of us comes in...you know... someone who is trained as an = organist, knows the lingo, "is in the life" as builder, organist, or both, = we survey things and have a sour taste afterwords. Andy Lawrence <email@example.com> wrote: Don't worry, Desiree', we're with you on this! It really does sound like you are dealing with one of many organs that was dealt with badly. In = fact, the way you have described it, it sounds like not only did he (or they?) make temporary fixes and call it a restoration, but worse, actually did a rebuild with additions and changes, without thinking of longevity. He actually had the organ apart, giving opportunity to fix it right, but instead put it back together piecemeal. Stepping back, though, in the grand scheme of things, I see a lot of = organs get replaced (either by an electronic or another pipe organ) because of = the high cost of restoring the old, when the old really could have gotten by = for a long time with a few repairs. Sure, if money were no object, you'd restore every organ from top to bottom and be done with it, or replace = with new if the old is not suitable. Not all budgets allow for it. I think the main problem in this one case (and it happens all the time), that makes it = shady and wasteful, is that the effort and money required for a real restoration was spent, and yet the real restoration wasn't done. When I do = things to try to postpone a full restoration, the idea is to avoid major = and costly disassembly. This buys the congregation time to save for the major restoration later, and allows them to enjoy the organ in the meantime. = It's basic economics... the longer you can postpone spending money, the better off you are... there's an official term for this but its been a while = since I've taken an economics course! Theoretically you can invest the money now = in something that appreciates (and organs do not appreciate) instead of spending it, and have more later. Of course, this assumes your investment can beat inflation. Historically and statistically, it usually does. Also, = everything has a lifespan, and the sooner you replace your old pair of sneakers, the sooner you'll have to replace it again. Same goes for organs. If a restoration will last 60 years, and you can postpone that restoration 20 years, that second restoration is 80 years away instead of 60. But if you have to take the organ all apart, you might as well fix everything before putting it back together. This was not done in this case. He did major work, spent big money, yet left it unrestored. Bad. In saying this I am trusting you that your story is true and unbiased. One thing we never did was answer the original question, which I think = was, is there any recourse? Someone did mention that there may be no legal recourse if there was a contract and it was followed. But do we have a way = of getting bad technicians and builders away from organs? I actually do = not know the answer. Here in the Northeast region of the US, there is a lot of = bickering among organbuilders and technicians, and its hard to sort out = what is a real problem and what is just strong opinion. For example, I know one = restorer who insists on leather nuts on old tracker organs, while I worked = for someone who always replaced them with plastic because you can use a power tool to install them, making the job much less costly in labor. Guy (1) says guy (2) is unscrupulous. Opinion, in my opinion. Both parties have a point. Neither is dead wrong. Will the leather last longer? Maybe. Is the extra hassle worth it? Not sure. But we have had our share of butchers who have left wheezing organs and penniless congregations in their wake. Can anything be done? I don't really know the answer, other than try to get there before they do. One problem is, as someone = mentioned, that most of these people are truly not out to screw people, but really think they can do the job, they love organs and want to save them, but get = in over their head. This can happen to the biggest and best too (Moller, Aeolean-Skinner, name any big one that isn't around any more). This will be my last post on this subject, just wanted to get in a few = final points. I hope I haven't offended anyone as a relative newbie to this room! I look forward to reading more if anyone has more (and different) input. I've enjoyed this discussion, its a topic near and dear to me. I think the issue of the _affordability_ of the pipe organ is key to its future, and its one of my pet issues. Full restorations and replacements are expensive and worth postponing when possible. But bad repairs can be even more expensive. Andy On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT), T.Desiree' Hines wrote > Paul > you said this very eloquently! > I agree whole-heartedly. This is EXACTLY what this company > did...poorly designd the organ to where no one over 200 LBS can get > in to tune or work on it. And they shoved 30 pounds of s&&& into a 3 > pound box. Im sorry, I still think they have done unethical work. > > Its a pipe organ folks...a PIPE ORGAN. And in my opinion, you don't > take cheap ways out looking at the fact that you have to buy milk > and bread tomorrow. Do one job, really well, and move on to the > next...that keeps you in business. Repairing things little by little > and making excuses as to polution in a city ruining leather, parking > thats totally free and off street, and all other blahzay stuff aside, > still, if some of the organ builders saw the work that was done (or > not done) they would be embarrassed. You dont take a pipe...and > glue...a piece of LEATHER TO IT to keep it from wiggling in a > toeboard thats too damned big. Ah, h$$$. I give up. LOL. I > dunno...my teachers have just always taught me that organs are > delicate and special and such harsh treatment ot them is just > uncalled for. > > Desiree' A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Administration: mailto:email@example.com Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
(back) Subject: Re: should fraudulent and unethical companies bare it all? From: <OrganMD@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:18:32 EDT Yes Hans, Tripper is a correct term as also is "hold and set." Both terms describe = the same system. Rocky Mountain Organ Co., Inc. William S (Bill) Hesterman, President We proudly represent Austin Organs, Inc. in the western US.
(back) Subject: Re: Swinging in Polite Company From: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Hmmm... In my younger days, I went to camp for three years... the church we attended on Sunday had a little 7 rank Estey organ (made in 1911) which was rebuilt not too long ago... I remember that for the Postlude, the organist (a woman) swung into Barcarolle, from the Tales of Hoffman by Offenbach... I'm wondering what the member of the list would think when, as I did, they heard that selection played as a postlude? Best wishes to all... Morton Belcher fellow list member... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- RMB10@aol.com wrote: > > I think that there are more out there who WANT to do > it, but think that the > SHOULDN'T do it. Get over it, let your hair down > and have fun....more > organists need to relax and enjoy the instrument. > Congregations would enjoy the organ > a lot more and it might keep some interest piqued > towards the pipe organ and > take some interest away from praise bands. Let the people > hear them swing once in a while--it could bring a > bonus to your paycheck. [snip] > It doesn't have to be every week, just once in a > while....let your hair down, > have some fun. We are all too stuffy. [snip] God gave us > emotions to release, not to > hold in and be stoic. Music is a wonderful way to > let them pour from our souls. > Sometimes we need to be serious and emote with > wonderful music like Vierne > and other times, we need to swing with a romp around > on an old gospel hymn with > some slushy strings, voxes, a tibia or two, and the > trems wailing away! > > Monty Bennett > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover