PipeChat Digest #4664 - Monday, August 2, 2004 Re: Transnational organists by "Jarle Fagerheim" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Transnational organists by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re: Transnational organists by "Jarle Fagerheim" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Transnational organists by "Jarle Fagerheim" <email@example.com> Re: Organists Declining and the School Programs...Starting a movement? by "v hatch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Larry King's Fanfare to the Tongues of Fire - was "Good Pentecost music f by "Charlie Lester" <email@example.com> why there are no organists by "Raymond H. Clark" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: church music degrees by "Shelley Culver" <email@example.com> Anglican Chant by "James M. Dahlgren" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Church Music Degrees by <Oboe32@aol.com> Sacred Music programs etc by "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Re: Sacred Music programs etc by "Raymond H. Clark" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Good Pentecost music for church organist audition by "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Re: Anglican Chant by "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: church music degrees by "John L. Speller" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Transnational organists From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 00:17:55 +0200 Colin Mitchell wrote: > The language I could doubtless have learned, and I > like snow, ice, slippery roads and huge drops into > fjords a mile below. Even if you'd have learnt the language perfectly, you would have difficulties in the "far-flung corner"s of Telemark. The dialects there are as good as impossible to understand for most native Norwegians... > Don't believe the Norwegians when they tell you it has > mountains! Look at it from a satellite photograph, > and it is as flat as a board. Something to do with it > being an indented penoplane....land that rose up and > got eroded by glaciers.....not a real mountain in > sight. The highest mountain in Norway, "Galdh=F8piggen", is 2469 metres (2-4-6-8 + 1), not very high compared to most other countries. But there are huge areas with lots of mountains 1000-2000 meters high, mostly far away from civilization. > Also, the Norwegians can never get more than "nil > pointe" in the Eurovision Song Contest; and this from > a country which gave us Grieg!!!!!!! You must understand that getting "null poeng" in the Song Contest is one of the greatest honours a Norwegian can possibly receive! - Jarle
(back) Subject: Re: Transnational organists From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:19:31 -0400 On 8/2/04 5:34 PM, "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > I feel sure there must be others around Oslo, Bergen Stavanger which we = do not > know about. > That is definitely true. And I hope that Jarle will tell us a LOT about them. He's familiar with them=3D=3Dbeing quite close to the one at = Stavanger, and not FAR from Bergen or Oslo. Alan
(back) Subject: Re: Transnational organists From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 00:21:24 +0200 Alan Freed wrote: > But Telemark is not an easy commute from Amsterdam! Go by plane from Schiphol to Stavanger, then 6 hours by train to Telemark. Not too bad, really. At least if you like trains :-) (Eventually take a flight from Schiphol to Oslo and then 2 hours on the train, but that makes the trip longer in terms of kilometres. Oslo is east of Telemark, whereas Stavanger is west.) - Jarle
(back) Subject: Re: Transnational organists From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 00:26:05 +0200 Colin Mitchell wrote: > I wonder if Jarle has heard the organ at Trondheim > Cathedral. It is reputed to be a very fine instrument. There are two large organs there. One by Steinmeyer from 1930 of some 100 ranks (used to be 129, but rebuilt and neo-baroqueified in the 60's) in the nave, and one J.J. Wagner from 1742 of 30 ranks in the north trancept, restored ten years ago by J=FCrgen Ahrend. I've played them both -- the Steinmeyer needs a total restoration to its former glory, but the Wagner is perhaps the finest noise-making thing in this whole country. > I feel sure there must be others around Oslo, Bergen > Stavanger which we do not know about. Organs? Yes. PipeChatters? Doubt it. Anyone out there? - Jarle
(back) Subject: Re: Organists Declining and the School Programs...Starting a movement? From: "v hatch" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:34:45 -0500 Yes!!! We do need to think of some action we could take to get CHURCHES to = pour more money--(or at least SOME money) into patronage for young = musicians and other subsidies--such as chipping in to local colleges or colleges = that their denomination supports--to stimulate and sponsor and encourage and strengthen organ study. They do this generously for their priests or pastors or ministers, don't they? And I believe there IS huge money in their coffers..( On the last two points I may be wrong!!!??)Why doesn't = AGO do this --or do they? >From: Gfc234@aol.com >Reply-To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> >To: email@example.com >Subject: Re: Organists Declining and the School Programs...Starting a >movement? >Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 15:09:37 EDT > > >In a message dated 8/2/2004 1:33:44 PM Central Daylight Time, >firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > >Arie V and Andrew Mead had some very good points and thanks so much for >them. >I was on the phone last night with two of my friends/colleagues who are >listers there, and we were also all online chatting together about = stuff. >One >thing that really sets me off is this: The university programs, for the >most >part, are not offering sturdy course work for us which the churches seem = >to >need. Westminster Choir College, the University of Kansas and a few = other >schools > are the only places that offer Sacred Music study where the course work = >is >intense. The University of Washington at Seattle, while not having a = Church >Music degree still has a way where a Sacred Music degree can be = "fashioned" >with adding about 9 hours of classes in Church Music to a BA Degree, = taught >by >Mel Butler. >My beef with the schools that dont do this: they are taking all of our >money >and not teaching us the basics that we need to know. Every decent paying = >job >on the AGO website now has a requirement for things like STRONG choral >conducting, RSCM expertise, very keen skills in Business Administration, >etc. Few >colleges that I have seen have anything where the Organ major is REQUIRED = >to >take intense courses in Choral Conducting and literature, childrens = music, >handbells, a sacred music education class or two, etc. The schools = really >need to encourage their organ departments to add Sacred Music = components, >if not >degree plans to offer us what we need to know. >And stop bi***ing about who's going to teach what. I remember at one >school >where I took some studies, the Handbell choir director got into a tiff >about >not wanting to teach handbell methods to the Church Music majors. After = 3 >weeks of classes, we still did not have an agreement, so they stopped it = >for a >semester. Another of my colleages said he asked a prominent Episcopal >Church >musician to teach him how to work in an RSCM frame, and that musician >refused. > >After the close of the Northwestern University Organ department, I >encourage >us in the field to REALLY get serious about this issue. The only thing >churches are doing is sitting, reading newspaper articles, and saying = very >blacnd >statements such as "Its sad that the organ schools are closing." Yet THE >CHURCHES are not doing ANYTHING about it. They won't step up and say to >the >schools, the AGO, the NPM, NASM to please think about what they are = doing. >If >they don;t say something and become more aggressive, then they will have = to >start with the drums and cymbals...and NOT in a Karg Elert fashion. = Search >committees at churches are made up of too many different people who are >insecure as >to where they want the church to go. Like I said...the church itself is >making us uninterested inworking for them. > > >Desiree: > >I agree with you on most of these points. HOWEVER-a musical education = for >a >good student-who is a good musician-and has good ears-should enable him = to >learn how to direct a handbell group, learn anglican chant, or work out = of >some RSCM style program IN A REALLY SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME. There is only = so > much >a school can teach. I'm sorry-but if you can play and understand a 4 >voice >Bach fugue-you CAN conduct a choir. > >Bud Wrote: >"I can't think of ANY other profession requiring a similar amount of >education and training that would put up with such conditions." > >Well -I can't think of any other profession that is so unwilling to train >new employees-with advanced degrees! Name another profession that = doesn't >start their new employees with one or two weeks of PAID training... = I've >found >that the Catholic and Episcopal denominations are the worst- they >frequently >ask for applicants with 5 or more years of experience in the >denomination-then tell applicants that there are 7 weekend liturgies, 5 >choirs, and 12 >meetings weekly-and the salary is 30k per year, with one week of = vacation >after two > years. It's like there's a caste system in place-one where you can't >break >into a higher level. >GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR > Perhaps this era can be compared with the decline of quality in = church >music during the end French Classical period (grin). The storm pieces >have been >replaced by guitars and drums. HAHAHAHA > >We just have to tell ourselves that everything will work out now-maybe = we >need to start playing Boely every week. > >On second thought-perhaps an independent group-upset pipechatters-can = start >to author letters to the heads of all major denominations stating their >concerns about unfair employment practices.-because the AGO obviously = will >not do >it. >gfc >__________________________________________________________________________= ____ >_________ >_______________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________ >_______________________________ >________________ >Gregory Francis Ceurvorst >1921 Sherman Avenue # GS >Evanston, IL 60201 >847.332.2788 home/fax >708.243.2549 mobile >_Home Email: email@example.com_ (mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org) >_Mobile Email: email@example.com_ >(mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org) > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! = http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
(back) Subject: Larry King's Fanfare to the Tongues of Fire - was "Good Pentecost music for church organist audition" From: "Charlie Lester" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:51:17 -0700 > From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:36:30 EDT Well, if you are up for a challenge ... why not go more modern with Larry King's Fanfare to the Tongues of Fire. < Yes, that would be a GREAT piece (one of my favorite organ works in fact), IF the organ has an FFFFF solo reed, and IF you don't mind the idea of blowing the wigs off the heads of the little old ladies [of both genders!] on the audition committee... Personally, I think a more subdued - or "mainline" - piece would be in order for an audition. Save the fireworks for after (presuming) you get the gig. Too bad it's not an evangelical church; you could do something on that *marvelous* hymn "Pentecostal Power." (eh, Monty?!) ~ C
(back) Subject: why there are no organists From: "Raymond H. Clark" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:07:48 -0700 Some thoughts: 1. I agree that a conservatory education didn't prepare me to be a church musician. I was accepted at Oberlin as a church music major; when I arrived (!), they informed me that there was no longer a church music program (!!), and that I would be an organ performance major (!!!). Had I known that, I would have gone elsewhere, but I was already THERE. 2. OTOH, the thorough grounding in music theory and music history from Oberlin has stood me in good stead throughout my life ... right through graduate school I didn't have to open a book (chuckle). 3. I agree with those who say that a good musician can learn to do about ANYTHING. I'd never conducted an orchestra OR a professional choir until I came to Old St. Mary's. I learned by doing, and my fellow students from Cincinnati College-Conservatory were tolerant and helpful ... in the process we played and sang a LOT of music and had a LOT of fun. 4. Where ALL my colleges fell down was in the all-important area of SERVICE-PLAYING and ACCOMPANYING. Fortunately, from the 7th grade through the 11th grade I'd had a skilled DMA in choral conducting for a choirmaster, and an equally skilled chorus teacher in school; my senior year, I had a rector who'd studied organ with Tertius Noble. But I didn't learn those skills in college; I learned them by trooping around the country and listening to organists, and by Fr. Sturrup demonstrating them for me. 5. The Anglicans in the USA have no one but themselves to blame if the tradition disappears. With the closing of the RSCM residential course in England, there's NO place to go to learn the tradition, and the custom of having organ scholars, apprentices, and articled pupils isn't observed to any great extent in the USA. What's NEEDED is a collegiate choral foundation along the lines of the former St. Michael's College, Tenbury ... a residential choir of men and boys in a college setting, with a fine chapel, a fine organ, and a fine library. Oh, and a fine FACULTY ... Lord only KNOWS where you'd get THAT these days ... impoverished English organists, I guess (chuckle). There are Episcopal colleges in this country that COULD have a church music program; they don't. I've managed to avoid most of the liturgical and musical chaos in the Episcopal church by playing for Latin Masses in the RC church, or conservative Rite I parishes in the Episcopal church, but I've watched from the sidelines as church after church slid down the slippery slope to pan-protestant potpourri music ... I don't RECOGNIZE the service-lists some of of my colleagues post ... they certainly don't look like Anglican service-lists to ME, with VERY few exceptions, and all but one of THOSE are out of the country: The Ascension in Chicago, St. Michael's in Cape Town, SA, Christ Church St. Lawrence in Sydney, OZ, St. Mary Magdalene in Toronto, etc. In my day, the liturgy was FIXED, whether it was high-church or low-church; if high-church, you did thus-and-such; if low-church, you did thus-and-such; but in ANY case, you did GOOD music, and you did it CONSISTENTLY. That's no longer the case, at least not with the Anglicans. I remember auditioning for a job right after the Hymnal 1982 came out .... I was asked to sight-read some syncopated mess of a "song" that I wouldn't have chosen to accompany a bar-room brawl. I could DO it, and I DID it, but I thought to myself, "If this is the kind of music they want, I don't want this job." I asked them if they actually SANG this hymn. They said "yes." I didn't take the job. I don't have a solution to offer. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: church music degrees From: "Shelley Culver" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:35:21 -0400 I will take classes that cover everything on your list. Music Technology: Software, webpages, html, etc, etc. Church Music Administration: Skills for interacting, conflict management (this was also covered in the required freshman seminar class!), financial management Church Music for Youth: Interacting, financial management, contemporary music Worship & Hymnology: Contemporary music. I think the program at Westminster is pretty good and prepares you for a job. Shelley >>> Terrick@webtv.net 08/02/04 4:52 PM >>> Besides some of the obvious courses that should be taught, there are also some it would be wise to include: - working with software for music writing - skills for interacting with people - conflict management - financial management of music program - working with "contemporary Christian music" ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Administration: mailto:email@example.com List-Subscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> List-Digest: <mailto:email@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Anglican Chant From: "James M. Dahlgren" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Listers, I disagree that one can learn Anglican Chant =93in a really short amount of time.=94 Anglican Chant is much like what Schnable is reputed to have said of Mozart, =93too easy for the young, and too difficult for the old.=94 Church Music, and Anglican Chant in particular starts with words, not with notes. It is very difficult to train =93musicians=94 away from the western metrical/rhythmic traditions ONE, 2, 3 4 ONE, 2, 3, 4 etc. The words must make sense and take priority over the music. It takes lots of hard work to get singers, who are unfamiliar with the tradition, to learn to read the words poetically and make sense of them BEFORE they can begin to sing them, (let alone any instrumentalists who may be in the choir). It is not =93MY SOUL, magnifies the Lord,=94 rather it is =93My soul, (slightly more emphasis) magnifies (=93magnifies=94 should sound as if the very word itself is growing and magnifying) the LORD. Lord is what it is all about, where the emphasis belongs. =93Too easy for the young, too difficult for the old.=94 Being so simple a formula (RN 1-2-3 RN1-2-3-4-5) it takes a choir with almost a Zen Master to simply let the chant in its own simplicity carry the words. I have heard too many =93stars=94 from the big music schools who are excellent musicians, lead an Anglican Chant that makes one wonder; where are the anvils for Il Trovatore? PEACE -James =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "In the end we shall have had enough of cynicism, skepticism and humbug = and we shall all want to live more musically" - Vincent Van Gogh James Milne Dahlgren 225 East 3rd Street, Apartment 7 San Angelo, Texas (325) 212-4343 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
(back) Subject: Church Music Degrees From: <Oboe32@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:58:37 EDT Hey All, I felt it necessary that I chime in on this one, seeing as I just = completed a BM with Church Music. The majority of the universities in the country with = programs that have both Sacred and Music Ed offered are encouraging their students to double, as are many prominent organ teachers. The reason = behind this is that churches are becoming much less discriminate about the credentials = they hold their musicians to. With a diminishing pool, few churches remain to = have stipulations that require a Sacred Music Degree. This is not to say that = there are none, but there are many fewer. Fulltime jobs are popping up in Roman Churches as pastors realize that half-assed music and programs just won't cut it. More and more Roman = parishes are working towards satisfactory music making, and some are even going beyond = that. The Roman Church, along with NPM and the AGO continue to emphasize to its affiliates that music is an investment in good liturgy and the livlihood = of the church. Needless to say, many Roman Clergy are new at the idea of PAYING = for the musicians, organ, and music making. Therefore, they have not defined the lines of good liturgical music, or the practices of the musicians they = employ. Therefore it has come more upon the individual musician to define the = position and what it entails. Westminster Choir College, as well as many other institutions, like = Catholic U. (of course), is seeing an influx of students who have been raised RC = and who wish to continue in the Roman Church. There is also a developing group = of students at WCC who come in Protestant and convert or begin employment in = the Roman Church, as there are more of them. Within these, and many other situations, the clergy, as well as the = musicians who make up the program, are unsure of the duties of the musician beyond "rehearse the choirs and play the organ". It is therefore the scenario = that the musician defines the position by what is necessary. Therefore colleges are = doing what is right, there is exposure to what is out there, the way the = majority work, and the students are left to develop themselves and their programs accordingly. The overall theme of my rambling is that a school can only teach so much. = We as musicians are called to improvise on more than just the bench. The = answers have not always been in books, and our forefathers had to find what worked = and build with what they had. I feel that Sacred Music programs need to be = widely based, yet focus primarily on making music, knowing the voice and organ, = and developing a sound psychology. There is only SO MUCH that can be fit into = the time a student is in school. Too many schools overwhelm their students... = It is far more important to get quality over quantity, a debate we've all = fought on here at one time or another. I live by the beliefs that 15 well voiced = ranks are far better than 95 thin unvoiced ranks, or digital for that matter. = Its all about a quality education over a quantity education, and even further, = you have to do what works for you once you get into the field, every situation = presents different circumstances. Anyway, I'm off to practice, cheers to all! -Pete Isherwood
(back) Subject: Sacred Music programs etc From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:59:42 -0700 (PDT) The Westminster program is great, but its just about the only one that is = so well organized. There needs to be more options. But the point is this about churches: THEY need to speak out against all = these department closures AND encourage the formation of Sacred Music = degrees in at least one school in all the major cities (for securing a = small job easily), at least one Public University (Westminster AINT = cheap), and more sacred music degrees at the Episcopal and UCC colleges. = The Baptist colleges would not dream of lacking a Church Music degree. As for musicians being locked into one denomination...thats what I DONT = do. Im familiar with LBW, LW, 82, Pres USA, Chalice, UM, and New Century = hymnals. Its the Episcopal and some Catholic Churches that seem to be the = most persnikity about their job descriptions. The other churches just seem = so...wonderful From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Sacred Music programs etc From: "Raymond H. Clark" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:12:50 -0700 Um, I disagree. It takes a lifetime to learn ONE tradition WELL, though there USED to be enough overlap that I could move back and forth between the RC Church and the Anglican Church without much difficulty. Many people have lamented the fact that Anglican churches (some, at least) won't look at someone who isn't a cradle Anglican. Well, lacking any OTHER way to learn it, that's not unreasonable. One simply CANNOT learn it from books alone, or even from college classes. I had the only Latin Mass in Cincinnati in the 1970s ... the College-Conservatory used to send musicology grad students to our High Mass to observe the living tradition of the Chant (we had a professional schola who sang the complete Propers from the Graduale every Sunday) ... they INVARIABLY said, "WOW! We had no IDEA how it all fit TOGETHER!" That's not something you CAN learn from books. Cheers, Bud T.Desiree' Hines wrote: > > > As for musicians being locked into one denomination...thats what I DONT > do. Im familiar with LBW, LW, 82, Pres USA, Chalice, UM, and New Century = > hymnals. Its the Episcopal and some Catholic Churches that seem to be > the most persnikity about their job descriptions. The other churches > just seem so...wonderful > > > > From Desiree' > T. Desiree' Hines > Chicago, IL 60610 > ---------------------------- > For Compositions by Desiree' > Frog Music Press > www.frogmusic.com > ------------------------------- > FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' > http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com >
(back) Subject: Re: Good Pentecost music for church organist audition From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Just pull out the Orglbuchlein and do the Komm Heilige Geist (Spelling?) From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican Chant From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:38:33 -0500 Our church sings Anglican chant extremely well, congregation and choir together. It is very important, of course, to include the pointing and = the chant in the service leaflet if the congregation is to have any hope of following along. Our congregation does it very well -- on the whole = better than some of the less familiar hymns. Incidentally, here it was only introduced five years ago and the choir and congregation had no previous experience of it. In my experience organists and choir directors who are unfamiliar with the tradition of Anglican chant generally have more = problems with it than choirs and congregations. This has been especially apparent = on occasions when we have done ecumenical services with the local ELCA and = UCC churches and have included Anglican chant. Their choirs have taken to it like ducks to water. My advice is to get a few CD's of English Cathedrals singing Anglican chant and to play them ad nauseam until it gets into your blood. John Speller St. Mark's Episcopal Church , St. Louis. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James M. Dahlgren" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: <email@example.com> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: Anglican Chant > Listers, > > I disagree that one can learn Anglican Chant "in a > really short amount of time." Anglican Chant is much > like what Schnable is reputed to have said of Mozart, > "too easy for the young, and too difficult for the > old." Church Music, and Anglican Chant in particular > starts with words, not with notes. It is very > difficult to train "musicians" away from the western > metrical/rhythmic traditions ONE, 2, 3 4 ONE, 2, 3, 4 > etc. The words must make sense and take priority over > the music.
(back) Subject: Re: church music degrees From: "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:39:24 -0500 and Anglican chant. John Speller ----- Original Message ----- From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 3:52 PM Subject: church music degrees > Besides some of the obvious courses that should be taught, there are > also some it would be wise to include: > - working with software for music writing > - skills for interacting with people > - conflict management > - financial management of music program > - working with "contemporary Christian music"