PipeChat Digest #4683 - Saturday, August 7, 2004
 
perpetuating myths
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: perpetuating myths
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: Pastor lays it on the line
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: perpetuating myths
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: perpetuating myths
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Re: perpetuating myths - eorg builders accusations
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Re: OHS 2004 Buffalo - 3rd Full Day - 7-17-04
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
RE: perpetuating myths - eorg builders accusations
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Perpetuating myths -eorg builders
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: Perpetuating myths -eorg builders
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
Re: perpetuating myths
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Digital / Pipe Combinations (input needed)
  by "Jeremy A. Korba" <jkorba@regentpromotions.com>
Re: perpetuating myths
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Organ and ?
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
thanks
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Fanfare for Tongues of Fire?
  by "John Jarvis" <JLJarvis@comcast.net>
RE: Fanfare for Tongues of Fire?
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
Re: Digital / Pipe Combinations (input needed)
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: OHS 2004 Buffalo - 3rd Full Day - 7-17-04
  by "rgunther@cantv.net" <rgunther@cantv.net>
Re: OHS 2004 Buffalo - 3rd Full Day - 7-17-04
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
 

(back) Subject: perpetuating myths From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:05:04 -0700   Someone mentioned the "mega-bucks" required to move and restore a vintage organ.   Yes, moving and restoring the Emmanuel Church Casavant WOULD be a major project, but it is suitable for a large church that would be spending a million dollars or more on a NEW pipe organ. IF the organ IS on ventil chessts, then it probably WOULD require new chests; but in that case it COULD be re-configured for different space requirements. Mention was also made of the need to replace the beautiful and elegant Casavant console. To what purpose? One MIGHT modernize the innards (or not ... Woolsey Hall's mighty Skinner is controlled by the same console and remote combination machines it has always had, and they work FLAWLESSLY), but Farnum provided an amazing number of "modern" registrational aids, if one studies the accessory list carefully.   GOOD organists of his day played big literature with a MINIMUM of registrational aids ... I am frankly of the opinion that present-day organists depend ALL TOO MUCH on the console "toys" and don't spend ENOUGH time learning how to make MUSIC.   That's a particular organ that needs a VERY large church with spacious organ-lofts (which, of course, could be PLANNED for in a new building).   But that's not the main thrust of my remarks.   A twin of the one-manual Hinners I described was recently available from a Lutheran church somewhere in the Frozen North. It was in good condition, having been releathered and the action renewed and adjusted when it was set up in that church (its second home) a number of years ago. The church was offering it for sale because they were expanding their building, and the little organ simply wasn't BIG enough.   I consulted a reputable organ-builder and was given a bid of $30K US to move and set up the organ in California. I don't recall now if the church was willing to donate it, or if they wanted a token payment for the instrument. In any case, no preparations were required at the other end, as our choir loft had the requisite height, width, and depth. Unfortunately, the Vestry decided to go with an electronic substitute instead, a decision supported by my successor as organist. The electronic cost around $50K US, and is too large and too loud for the building, a tall reverberant nave which seats 150 people.   So ... instead of 9-10 stops of high-quality vintage pipework that would have fitted the building almost exactly, they chose 51 "stops" of electronic substitute which gives the congregation a headache. The ORGANIST is entirely pleased with the result.   In the 1970s, we moved and restored an 1898 Koehnken & Grimm in Cincinnati, 2 manuals, 20-something stops, for a cost of less than $5K US ... volunteers did the scut-work; an organ-builder releathered the reservoir and feeders, set up the chassis, and renewed the action. We did most of the rest.   Now, again, that was a particular situation: a local move (across Mt. Adams), two churches of virtually identical size and acoustics ... the Irish church had the organ; the German church had the people; the Archdiocese consolidated the two parishes in the German building, since it was a "pilgrimage" church ... there's a winding stairway from the Ohio River to the top of the mountain that huge crowds of pilgrims climb on their knees every Good Friday.   The re-dedication recital with choir and organists included the Franck Piece Heroique, the Guilmant O Filii et Filiae, the Rossini Inflammatus, and the Sanctus from Gounod's St. Cecelia Mass ... all were played to good effect. The organ has two reeds (Oboe and Vox humana) and no = mixtures.   Another instance: a small two-manual Verschueren electric-action unit organ, which replaced a Baldwin Model 5 (!): the organ was purchased for $2K US from a Catholic church; it cost another $2K US to move it and restore it for a small Episcopal church. The ranks (as I recall) were Rohrfloete, Principal, and Mixture, over two manuals and pedals. It wasn't an "Anglican" organ, by ANY means, but it accompanied the service, and was a HUGE improvement over the Baldwin.   As long as people continue to perpetuate the myth that it costs "mega-bucks" to move and restore vintage pipe organs, churches will continue to buy electronic substitutes, with the blessing of organists who simply can't do without 50+ "stops."   Bud Clark San Diego CA USA              
(back) Subject: Re: perpetuating myths From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 12:38:18 EDT   In a message dated 8/7/2004 11:11:14 AM Central Daylight Time, quilisma@cox.net writes:   As long as people continue to perpetuate the myth that it costs "mega-bucks" to move and restore vintage pipe organs, churches will continue to buy electronic substitutes, with the blessing of organists who simply can't do without 50+ "stops."     Bud-you're right-again! Something to consider-if a large and fine used instrument costs about = 200k to move and set up-I don't consider that mega-bucks at all-infact-that's pennies. Now if we look at Digital X ( I use this name because a few big digital organ companies have thretened friends of mine on the list with lawsuits! = Can you believe that?!?!-What other company can sue people who are = dissatisfied with their product?-imagine if Ford tried to sue every person who bad = mouthed one of their cars!!!) and compare it to the pipe instrument-it will = appear that the digi organ costs mega bucks. The digital manufacturers are = running a scheme-pricing the instruments by rank etc...The wood on the console is = cheap about 98 percent of the time-and the sound just isin't quite there-nor = will it ever be. My favorite scheme is how they sell the speakers for the organ--saying that they manufacture the speakers themselves, and that = they are the only speakers that will make the organ sound right. The truth is that = they probably have JBL, EV, or some other high end manufacturer make the = speakers. Then they sell them at 300 percent profit. In the end-I've heard that = many most digital installations cost over 100,000. What a waste! What a = scheme! gfc   ___________________________________________________________________________= ___ _________ _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ _______________________________ ________________ Gregory Francis Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Avenue # GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile _Home Email: gfc234@aol.com_ (mailto:gfc234@aol.com) _Mobile Email: gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net_ (mailto:gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net)    
(back) Subject: Re: Pastor lays it on the line From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 12:58:58 EDT   >He sounds like a Lutheran Pope! Lucky YOU! I forgot to mention the other edict our pastor has issued regarding the = new sanctuary...there will be no screens in the church, either. He's a techno-phobe. I think that broadcasting things before the service such as = announcements as a PowerPoint presentation or doing a couple minute video = of upcoming events can be done tastefully, but he wants no part of it. I'm not going = to argue, because somewhere down the line people would start trying to start =   sneaking in putting up words to choruses on the screens, then it leads to = other things, and on and on it goes... It works in some places, but when the = whole front wall is going to be taken up with organ cases and the baptistry, = there is really no place a screen could go, so I think we're safe. I'm still shocked that I'm at a Baptist church and have a traditionalist = pastor...wonders will never cease! Monty Bennett Friendship Baptist Church Charlotte, NC  
(back) Subject: Re: perpetuating myths From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:16:36 EDT   What is so appalling is that most people just don't want to do any research or work, yet they claim to want the best for themselves, the = music program, and the institution for which they work. "There's a two-manual Hook available that would be perfect for our church, but I heard that it costs $50,000.00 just to releather an old = organ bench, and the vestry will never go for that." "The instrument needs to have some new trackers made, and a friend of mine who used to work for an 'organ tech' says that they don't make wood = that thin any more." "I hear that all organ blowers run on 5-phase, 84-volt current, and I don't think our church has that." Why are people so lazy? Why do they pull figures out of the air, = rather than getting bids? Yet when they DO get bids, I'm always surprised at the =   oddball lists of builders, getting bids from a small Swiss tracker builder = who specializes in Thuringian copies, the local "organ tech," an American = factory builder, and two digital companies, only to get a parishioner's former = college roommate, who repairs household appliances and plays piano, to build = something out of parts. Tales of woe follow, the pile discarded, and a substitute purchased. Another syndrome is that the organist decides, "If I cannot have a = III/70 by Irving Zunk, the greatest organbuilder living or dead in America today, = I just want an electronic." What on EARTH makes people think this way??? Just do some homework, instead of taking wild guesses. There are real organbuilders out there with fine American pipe organs carefully stored = and waiting for new homes. I just got a package in the mail about two = substantial electropneumatic organs, recently restored, available for relocation to = new homes. They are available to be heard in their present locations so that there is = no guesswork. A potential client and their chosen organbuilder could inspect, =   listen, and discuss the possibilities. Really, folks, there are plenty of sources for rebuildable, or simply relocatable pipe organs of ALL sizes. The idea that you can only get a I/4 =   Hinners or a II/6 Moline is patently ridiculous. Deep down, we all KNOW = that. The fear of doing the research, the fear of making a decision, and the = tremendous fear that SOMEBODY will disapprove of the results (and you will always = have your detractors), leads to catastrophic paralysis, bad decisions, and opportunities lost. We create our lives.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..  
(back) Subject: Re: perpetuating myths From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 12:22:47 -0500   Yea Sebastian, you are the man! Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:16 PM Subject: Re: perpetuating myths     > What is so appalling is that most people just don't want to do any > research or work, yet they claim to want the best for themselves, the music program, > and the institution for which they work. > "There's a two-manual Hook available that would be perfect for our > church, but I heard that it costs $50,000.00 just to releather an old organ bench, > and the vestry will never go for that." > "The instrument needs to have some new trackers made, and a friend = of > mine who used to work for an 'organ tech' says that they don't make wood that > thin any more." > "I hear that all organ blowers run on 5-phase, 84-volt current, and = I > don't think our church has that." > Why are people so lazy? Why do they pull figures out of the air, rather > than getting bids? Yet when they DO get bids, I'm always surprised at = the > oddball lists of builders, getting bids from a small Swiss tracker = builder who > specializes in Thuringian copies, the local "organ tech," an American factory > builder, and two digital companies, only to get a parishioner's former college > roommate, who repairs household appliances and plays piano, to build something > out of parts. Tales of woe follow, the pile discarded, and a substitute > purchased. > Another syndrome is that the organist decides, "If I cannot have a III/70 > by Irving Zunk, the greatest organbuilder living or dead in America = today, I > just want an electronic." What on EARTH makes people think this way??? > Just do some homework, instead of taking wild guesses. There are = real > organbuilders out there with fine American pipe organs carefully stored and > waiting for new homes. I just got a package in the mail about two substantial > electropneumatic organs, recently restored, available for relocation to new homes. > They are available to be heard in their present locations so that there = is no > guesswork. A potential client and their chosen organbuilder could = inspect, > listen, and discuss the possibilities. > Really, folks, there are plenty of sources for rebuildable, or = simply > relocatable pipe organs of ALL sizes. The idea that you can only get a = I/4 > Hinners or a II/6 Moline is patently ridiculous. Deep down, we all KNOW that. The > fear of doing the research, the fear of making a decision, and the tremendous > fear that SOMEBODY will disapprove of the results (and you will always have your > detractors), leads to catastrophic paralysis, bad decisions, and > opportunities lost. > We create our lives. > > Sebastian M. Gluck > New York City > http://www.glucknewyork.com/ > > . > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: Re: perpetuating myths - eorg builders accusations From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 13:41:15 -0500     Every so often....in fact, much too often....a posting appears that results in my typing a rather long response that I then end up deleting totally....this is one of them.   Aybody else here on the list with me on this?   noel jones www.frogmusic.com    
(back) Subject: Re: OHS 2004 Buffalo - 3rd Full Day - 7-17-04 From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:53:12 -0400   Hi Chris,   Thanks for that information from the good seats! Bonnie Beth already had clued me in, and also explained what we did at the time of the hymn in Stephen Schnurr's recital, which was simply to sing Bryn Calfaria at 307 = in the 1982 Hymnal with the text that was there - "Lord, enthroned in = heavenly splendor." Bonnie Beth also mentioned that Andrew Scanlon was indeed quite ill through Evensong and his concert, and also through the morning = service, for which he also had responsibilities. A Trouper indeed!   Cheers,   Malcolm   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher J. Howerter" <christophhowerter@sbcglobal.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:01 PM Subject: Re: OHS 2004 Buffalo - 3rd Full Day - 7-17-04     > To clarify who was playing what in the evensong....Andrew 1 played the > voluntaries and hymn accompaniment(s) and whenever Andrew 1 conducted (i.e. > during the service music) Andrew 2 played. > > Cheers, > Chris (who is now rushing off to work)      
(back) Subject: RE: perpetuating myths - eorg builders accusations From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 13:38:17 -0500   Yep.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of noel jones Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 1:41 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: perpetuating myths - eorg builders accusations     Every so often....in fact, much too often....a posting appears that results in my typing a rather long response that I then end up deleting totally....this is one of them.   Aybody else here on the list with me on this?          
(back) Subject: Perpetuating myths -eorg builders From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 13:55:18 -0500   Noel Jones wrote: > Every so often....in fact, much too often....a posting appears that > results in my typing a rather long response that I then end up > deleting totally....this is one of them. > Anybody else here on the list with me on this? Pardon my perhaps calloused observation in response to this, but it seems to me that this would be a terrible waste of time. Wouldn't it be better utilized more constructively in some other pursuit otherwise than to write something, only to turn around and delete it? In any event: as a former pipe builder (e.g.:"insider"!), I can safely say that any organ project can be whatever the customer and builder make of it and extremism on either side ultimately impresses no one. Sincerely, Richard Schneider  
(back) Subject: Re: Perpetuating myths -eorg builders From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 15:05:49 -0400       On 7 Aug 2004 at 13:55, Richard Schneider expounded: > Wouldn't it > be better > utilized more constructively in some other pursuit otherwise > than to write > something, only to turn around and delete it?     Better to delete it sometimes than to post it. Been there, done that.   --Shirley      
(back) Subject: Re: perpetuating myths From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:14:15 EDT   In a message dated 8/7/2004 1:17:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, TubaMagna@aol.com writes:   > We create our lives. > >   in SO many ways at so many times......   then we live with our choices.......   dale in florida  
(back) Subject: Digital / Pipe Combinations (input needed) From: "Jeremy A. Korba" <jkorba@regentpromotions.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:16:08 -0500   Greetings List,   We're looking at many options for our upcoming organ project - from a transplant to just fixing what we have to a digital/pipe combination.   I'm especially interested in hearing first hand experiences you have had with DIGITAL / PIPE combos. We have a 10-rank Wicks organ built in 1965 = that requires major fixes. While we're at it, we're thinking of expanding the pipes and / or digital capability.   PLEASE... provide any input you have - who did you work, what happened, = how the dealings went, your take on the situation, anything "important" you = feel I should know.   As an "inexperienced" organist (only been playing for about 5 years), I = look to you, the members of this list, for some help and guidance.   Thank you!   -Jeremy Korba St. Joseph Catholic Church (812) 589-3886 jkorba@evansville-diocese.org      
(back) Subject: Re: perpetuating myths From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:17:08 EDT   In a message dated 8/7/2004 12:38:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, = Gfc234@aol.com writes:   > What a waste! What a scheme! > >   indeed mr noel i wrote a long one and deleted it.......   dale in florida  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ and ? From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:44:21 -0400   There is an organ part in Wagner's "Der Meistersinger" excerpts arranged for orchestra. I heard recently that the BSO was doing their Sat. morning rehearsal for this piece at Tanglewood and someone had forgotten about the organ, so there was a scurry to get it in shape and find someone to play it, as the regular organist was in Europe. Also a favorite of mine is R. V. Williams "Symphony Antarctica" which has = a major organ part and also uses a wind machine. Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: thanks From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:37:30 -0500   Thanks for all of you who responded back on the topic of re-packing = stopped pipes. Gary    
(back) Subject: Fanfare for Tongues of Fire? From: "John Jarvis" <JLJarvis@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:13:17 -0700   In a recent post, a piece by Larry King (?) called "Fanfare for Tongues = of Fire" was mentioned. I have checked with my usual print music resources = and have come up empty handed. Can someone point me to where I might locate = a review copy of this piece? John      
(back) Subject: RE: Fanfare for Tongues of Fire? From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 17:48:11 -0500   My copy is in a Hinshaw collection- "Majestic Trumpet", HMO-133. On-line dealers (Pepper, Kephart's, etc.) show it in print. You'd never find it = as one of them shows Hancock and the other Wyton as the composer. The = contents:   Hancock Trumpet Flourishes for Christmas King Fanfare to the Tongues of Fire Ossewaarde. Fanfare for Easter day Wyton Palm Sunday   Dunno if that constitutes a review copy.     Michael       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of John Jarvis Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 4:13 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Fanfare for Tongues of Fire?     In a recent post, a piece by Larry King (?) called "Fanfare for Tongues of Fire" was mentioned. I have checked with my usual print music resources = and have come up empty handed. Can someone point me to where I might locate a review copy of this piece?      
(back) Subject: Re: Digital / Pipe Combinations (input needed) From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 19:48:56 EDT   In a message dated 8/7/2004 3:16:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jkorba@regentpromotions.com writes: I'm especially interested in hearing first hand experiences you have had with DIGITAL / PIPE combos. We have a 10-rank Wicks organ built in 1965 = that requires major fixes. While we're at it, we're thinking of expanding the pipes and / or digital capability. I have played a number of pipe/digital and pipe/analog electronics...the pipes are pipes, and the other is NOT...and getting the two to blend and = work cohesively is a rare occurance REGARDLESS of who built what, tho some builders/manufacturers are better than others. I believe that if you want to retain the integrity of the pipe organ, KEEP = it a pipe organ...undo some of the unification with new independant ranks.   Wicks organs are quite durable instruments...I service several that date = back to the mid 1950's that have had an excellent track record of reliability, = tho the mechanical relay units in a couple of those organs are slated to be replaced with new solid-state relay systems in the near future due to contact-finger cancer...the chests themselves have given almost totally = problem free service in all the time I have serviced them as well as the service firm = who provided the maintenance for these organs before I did.   My opinion? skip the digital additions, and revise the organ in a = thoughtful manner with real pipes.   Rick in VA  
(back) Subject: Re: OHS 2004 Buffalo - 3rd Full Day - 7-17-04 From: "rgunther@cantv.net" <rgunther@cantv.net> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:04:33 -0400   I want to thank Malcom in the open for these reviews which show a deep analysis, some lesser known backgrounds, and a careful ellaboration.   Unfortunatedly I miss the 1st full day's review. Could someone please send it over to me?   Thanks in advance. Andres    
(back) Subject: Re: OHS 2004 Buffalo - 3rd Full Day - 7-17-04 From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 19:29:51 -0500   At 8:04 PM -0400 8/7/04, rgunther@cantv.net wrote: > >Unfortunatedly I miss the 1st full day's review. Could someone please = send >it over to me?   Before Andres gets a flood of copies I have sent him Malcolm's review of the first day   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org