PipeChat Digest #4716 - Wednesday, August 25, 2004
 
Re: Experience with copyrights
  by "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net>
Re: OK, now it's personal
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
"What's an AGO chapter without "snoots?"
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Re: OK, now it's personal
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Experience with copyrights
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Experience with copyrights
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Experience with copyrights
  by "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>
Re: Experience with copyrights
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
Re: Experience with copyrights
  by <ComposerTX@aol.com>
matchmaking opportunity
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
Re: Experience with copyrights
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Experience with copyrights
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Walcker double pedalboard
  by "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca>
Re: OK, now it's personal
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Re: "What's an AGO chapter without "snoots?"
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
french fun!
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
RE: matchmaking opportunity
  by "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com>
Re: Experience with copyrights
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Experience with copyrights From: "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:52:08 -0500   In my Methodist church, we experienced the pressure to "be like = everybody else" and go the Praise Music route. We avoid canned music as = policy, but that is a whole nother subject. The best compromise (that's = right, I said compromise) we have found is to use the new hymnal = supplement published by the Methodist Church, and only that book. It has = a better quality of music than some of what is being done, it is well = arranged (in a piano-style "Accompaniment" volume, and a "Simplified" = volume that the organ can play as written, and which includes the tune, = making piano-organ performance easy), and it is our denomination's = accepted form of this kind of music. It isn't the whole answer (which = probably would require musical "re-education camps"), but it puts the = brakes on the extremes that would drive our more musical members away. = Take a look at The Praise We Sing supplement, unless you think your = pastor would be willing to reject the whole move to the supposed "Praise = Music" with the copyright arguement. Kip Smith in = Missouri ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Larry Wheelock=20 To: PipeChat ; Pipe Related Topics Organs and=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 9:30 PM Subject: Experience with copyrights     I have just been informed that our congregation will have a guest = speaker in September who has requested some type of (unknown) "Praise = Band" music. The alternative she suggests is that she can play a CD of = the music she wants during the worship.   I asked the pastor to inquire what she wished to emphasize with such = musc -- perhaps we can accomplish her goals with music more familiar to = us. I asked that she be informed that A. We do not have a "Praise Band, = and B. We do not do very much of that sort of music BY CHOICE.   I have told the pastor that we must have all the details of the exact = CD and selections to be used so that we can obtain Copyright permission = to play the CD in public worship. Does anyone in this group have = experience in dealing with commercial record companies about such = permissions. We have frequently obtained permissions for reprints, etc, = but in the past, when I have told people wishing to use 'canned" music = that they had to arrange copyright permission, they have (up 'til now) = abandoned the idea.=20   What experiences have you had?     Larry Wheelock Director of Music Ministries Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, Wisconsin musicdirector@kenwood-umc.org
(back) Subject: Re: OK, now it's personal From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:14:59 -0400   Dear Bud, I don't know who your senator is from your area but I would be on him like stink on you know what. You don't deserve to be treated that way and that;s what senators are for. Despite what they believe they are on this earth for. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> To: <undisclosed-recipients:> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:40 PM Subject: OK, now it's personal     > Barring a miracle, we will be homeless as of Sept. 1, because, according > to the Bush regime, we do not qualify as a "family" for federal rental > assistance. > > I have no idea what we're going to do. > > I'll try and salvage my books and the computer, though I won't have > anyplace to put them except in the back of the pickup truck. > > We'll have to walk away from the furniture and the organ (no cash value, > but it plays well enough to practice on ... if I don't practice, I won't > know whether I'm ABLE to play, or WANT to play). > > My Social Security disability claim is still on appeal ... that will > take the better part of a year at best. > > I have a place to go (friends in Ohio) ... I have no idea how I'd GET > there ... but I won't leave Burgie alone, and he can't do winters in > Ohio because he has emphysema. > > I'd hoped to sell enough copies of the St. Matthew Passion to stave off > disaster for at least another month while we searched for other > resources, but that didn't happen. > > So there you have it. > > Bud > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 7/16/2004    
(back) Subject: "What's an AGO chapter without "snoots?" From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:20:26 -0700   Scoot Foppiano said,   =3D-> [snip ] .... [W]hat's an AGO chapter without "snoots?" They're half = the fun (and generally some of the better musicians!) LOL <-=3D     I've found, over the years, that quite the opposite is often true. By and = large, the snootier the organist, the less the talent - experience - = knowledge.   Artificial - contrived - exaggerated "snootery" frequently is an emotional = crutch devised to disguise an inferiority complex [whether stemming from = actual or imagined inferiority is beside the point], or to conceal a lack = of experience or education.   It's textbook 1st-year psychology: "I'll make myself feel [and appear to = be] bigger-better-grander by diminishing everyone else through = pseudo-snobbery."   Organists (and, indeed, people in general) who are secure with themselves, = comfortable with their education and accomplishments, satisfied with their = talents, are generally the LEAST snooty among us. Julia Child, May God = Rest Her Soul, comes to mind.   Snootiness is the converse of humility.   ~ C        
(back) Subject: Re: OK, now it's personal From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:23:30 -0700   Both my Senators (Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein) are Democrats, as is my Representative (Susan Davis); they HAVE been MOST helpful with my Social Security appeal. But I hesitate to presume on their generosity about this ... I have to contact someone and find out if State anti-discrimination laws shield people in California from discriminatory Federal laws, but I doubt it. In SOME cases the States are allowed to establish different standards (California's State disability laws are a good deal more stringent than the Federal Americans With Disabilities Act, for instance), but given the present regime, I doubt such protections extend to "non-traditional" families.   Cheers,   Bud   Paul Valtos wrote:   > Dear Bud, > I don't know who your senator is from your area but I would be on = him > like stink on you know what. You don't deserve to be treated that way = and > that;s what senators are for. Despite what they believe they are on this > earth for. > Paul > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> > To: <undisclosed-recipients:> > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:40 PM > Subject: OK, now it's personal > > > >>Barring a miracle, we will be homeless as of Sept. 1, because, according >>to the Bush regime, we do not qualify as a "family" for federal rental >>assistance. >> >>I have no idea what we're going to do. >> >>I'll try and salvage my books and the computer, though I won't have >>anyplace to put them except in the back of the pickup truck. >> >>We'll have to walk away from the furniture and the organ (no cash value, >>but it plays well enough to practice on ... if I don't practice, I won't >>know whether I'm ABLE to play, or WANT to play). >> >>My Social Security disability claim is still on appeal ... that will >>take the better part of a year at best. >> >>I have a place to go (friends in Ohio) ... I have no idea how I'd GET >>there ... but I won't leave Burgie alone, and he can't do winters in >>Ohio because he has emphysema. >> >>I'd hoped to sell enough copies of the St. Matthew Passion to stave off >>disaster for at least another month while we searched for other >>resources, but that didn't happen. >> >>So there you have it. >> >>Bud >> >> >> >>****************************************************************** >>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >>List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >>List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >> > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 7/16/2004 > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Experience with copyrights From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:24:50 -0700   Um, I think ANY public playing of recorded copyright music is covered by ASCAP rules. Best to contact them.   Cheers,   Bud   Paul Smith wrote:   > In my Methodist church, we experienced the pressure to "be like > everybody else" and go the Praise Music route. We avoid canned music as > policy, but that is a whole nother subject. The best compromise (that's > right, I said compromise) we have found is to use the new hymnal > supplement published by the Methodist Church, and only that book. It has =   > a better quality of music than some of what is being done, it is well > arranged (in a piano-style "Accompaniment" volume, and a "Simplified" > volume that the organ can play as written, and which includes the tune, > making piano-organ performance easy), and it is our denomination's > accepted form of this kind of music. It isn't the whole answer (which > probably would require musical "re-education camps"), but it puts the > brakes on the extremes that would drive our more musical members away. > Take a look at The Praise We Sing supplement, unless you think your > pastor would be willing to reject the whole move to the supposed "Praise =   > Music" with the copyright arguement. Kip Smith in = Missouri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Wheelock <mailto:llwheels@mac.com> > To: PipeChat <mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org> ; Pipe Related Topics > Organs and <mailto:PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 9:30 PM > Subject: Experience with copyrights > > I have just been informed that our congregation will have a guest > speaker in September who has requested some type of (unknown) > "Praise Band" music. The alternative she suggests is that she can > play a CD of the music she wants during the worship. > > I asked the pastor to inquire what she wished to emphasize with such > musc -- perhaps we can accomplish her goals with music more familiar > to us. I asked that she be informed that A. We do not have a "Praise > Band, and B. We do not do very much of that sort of music BY CHOICE. > > I have told the pastor that we must have all the details of the > exact CD and selections to be used so that we can obtain Copyright > permission to play the CD in public worship. Does anyone in this > group have experience in dealing with commercial record companies > about such permissions. We have frequently obtained permissions for > reprints, etc, but in the past, when I have told people wishing to > use 'canned" music that they had to arrange copyright permission, > they have (up 'til now) abandoned the idea. > > What experiences have you had? > > > Larry Wheelock > Director of Music Ministries > Kenwood United Methodist Church > Milwaukee, Wisconsin > musicdirector@kenwood-umc.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Experience with copyrights From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:50:22 EDT   In a message dated 8/24/2004 10:24:12 PM Central Daylight Time, quilisma@cox.net writes:   I have told the pastor that we must have all the details of the > exact CD and selections to be used so that we can obtain Copyright > permission to play the CD in public worship.     Doesn't purchasing the CD give you the right to play it for as many = people as you please? Since when is it illegal to play a CD for a group of = people? Playing a CD is NOT copying it. Just my thoughts, gfc ___________________________________________________________________________= ___ _________ _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ _______________________________ ________________ Gregory Francis Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Avenue # GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile _Home Email: gfc234@aol.com_ (mailto:gfc234@aol.com) _Mobile Email: gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net_ (mailto:gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net)    
(back) Subject: Experience with copyrights From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:51:26 -0400   Larry and others,   My best friend owns our local radio station, and we've discussed this kind of thing before. I guess churches have unwittingly broken the law for = years without being slapped for it.   Do D.J.'s at a school dance, wedding reception, church social function, = etc. obtain permission from the publishers to play the popular CDs?   My understanding is that there's no problem with playing a recording for a congregation. It "could be" considered a violation if the service is broadcast over radio or TV. That's why we always heard the announcer on = the air say "any rebroadcast of this program is prohibited."   The same thing applies when you put music on your telephone's "hold" = button. Many of us break the law without knowing it when we have a CD player connected to our phone system in order to have music for our customers = while they're on hold. This is "rebroadcasting" of the music. My friend has = his radio station playing on hold at his insurance agency, but he owns the station and has given himself permission.   I think people have not prosecuted televised churches that happened to do this because the audience is fairly "contained" and it generally does not have any adverse effect on the publisher's sales.   I've been in Sunday School class in which the teacher was playing = vignettes from certain movies after which time we would discuss the scenes.   I do not wish the following statement to sound like I'm making any kind of accusation, but . . . in situations like this, are you truly interested in following the law or is something being requested that you really don't = like and would like to find a way to keep it from happening. I admit, I could = be guilty of the same thing.   Sincerely, Keith      
(back) Subject: Re: Experience with copyrights From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:00:21 EDT   In a message dated 8/24/2004 10:51:00 PM Central Daylight Time, Gfc234@aol.com writes: Doesn't purchasing the CD give you the right to play it for as many people = as you please? Since when is it illegal to play a CD for a group of people? Playing a CD is NOT copying it. Just my thoughts, I was amazed, a couple years back, while browsing through organ music = bins in a Kansas City, Missouri retail music store to see, printed on the = inside cover of several newer organ works: "Purchasing this music does not carry = the right to perform this music. Written permission must be sought and = received from the publisher for performance license to be granted." Did I purchase = THEIR music . . . no way!!   Dale G. Rider, M. Sacred Mus., CAGO* Independence, MO  
(back) Subject: Re: Experience with copyrights From: <ComposerTX@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:03:58 EDT   When asked to use music from a CD for a worship service, I ask them to provide the printed music to us, the musicians, and we provide the live = music. As far as a praise band, I wouldn't allow a pastor to choose the = instrumentation for hymns and service music any more than I would allow the pastor to = choose the instrumentation for the Brahms Requiem. Pastors aren't qualified; I am. Danny Ray  
(back) Subject: matchmaking opportunity From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:22:19 -0500   Hey everyone! I'm coming to NYC too, sometime in the next month or two. = My reason is a girl I've met on the internet who lives there (never thought _that_ would happen!) who for some very strange reason actually thinks its =   cool that I play and maintain organs. She even wants to see the inside of =   an organ. SO, I was wondering if anyone presides over an organ in NYC who =   would be willing to let me demo the organ from the console and to let me take her inside to see the inner workings. I met John Randolph when I delivered a truckload of cleaned Skinner pipes to Columbia U a little over = a year ago and may try to get ahold of him too (does anyone know how to get ahold of him?). Manhatten is probably best, location-wise.   It's not necessary for the organ to be huge or any particular style. My limited repertoire can be made to work on any organ (actually I'm of the opinion that there is _very_ little repertoire that can't be played on pretty much any organ, even though I grant that certain organs/repertoire = go better together than others). At least two manuals, a real tonal scheme = (as opposed to an amateur collection of unrelated ranks) of any period, and decent accoustics would be nice. Just the same, it certainly would be fun =   if the organ was large! A tracker would be fun to demo, but then so would =   an EP. I guess a DE wouldn't be that exciting, even though I'm a believer =   in DE. Obviously an electronic is out. I don't mind a digital stop here and there.   Might be best to contact me offlist unless you think what you have to say would interest everyone.   Thanks! Andy     A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Experience with copyrights From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:43:46 -0500   Larry Wheelock wrote:   >I have just been informed that our congregation will have a guest >speaker in September who has requested some type of (unknown) "Praise >Band" music. The alternative she suggests is that she can play a CD of >the music she wants during the worship. > > <snip>   >... We have frequently obtained permissions for reprints, etc, >but in the past, when I have told people wishing to use 'canned" music >that they had to arrange copyright permission, they have (up 'til now) >abandoned the idea. > [NB: I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on the internet. The following reflects my own personal opinion, informed in part by title 17 or the USC.] I wouldn't worry much about this at all. If she is playing from an legitimately purchased copy of whatever CD she wishes to use, it is my opinion that her use of CD's in the service would come under the "fair use" doctrine.  
(back) Subject: Re: Experience with copyrights From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:51:13 -0500   Gregory wrote:   > Doesn't purchasing the CD give you the right to play it for as many > people as you please? Since when is it illegal to play a CD for a > group of people? Playing a CD is NOT copying it. > Just my thoughts,   The fact is, though, that the rights in question here are not copyrights, but mechanical rights. Not that I'm attorney, nor that I play one on the internet, but as I wrote in another post on this thread, IMO, as a one time occurence, in which a speaker is using the CD's as illustrative material, I'm inclined to think that this is coverred under the "fair use doctrine.", unless the service is broadcast or otherwise recorded. Even in that case, though I'd not worry about it too much. I understand the copyright police have been pressed into service, looking for WMDs in Iraq.   ns  
(back) Subject: Walcker double pedalboard From: "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:25:53 -0400   I seem to remember that someone once wanted a picture of the Walcker double pedalboard ...   http://theatreorgans.com/giwro/stuttgart.jpg      
(back) Subject: Re: OK, now it's personal From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:50:19 EDT   In a message dated 8/24/2004 8:38:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, quilisma@cox.net writes: I have no idea what we're going to do. Bud,   How I wish my prayers for you could come with a big, fat check (and I'm = sure you do too!). But, nevertheless, my prayers for you do come with a request =   that your Heavenly Father will send comfort and assurance that YOU do not = have to worry, that He will provide and that.....He will let you see what the provision is. I know this is contrary to the way God usually works, but = it is my prayer for you anyway.     Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA  
(back) Subject: Re: "What's an AGO chapter without "snoots?" From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 03:00:05 EDT   I agree with you. I enjoy the AGO meetings both in Oklahoma City and Ft. Worth. I do not find them snooty, but very friendly. I have been a = member of one in Detroit, El Paso, Oklahoma City and dual membership in Ft. Worth. = I love the workshops and concerts. There is also much to learn from the members. =   Keith went with me to Oklahoma City, and there were some organ builders = who knew him and his reputation. If it weren't for AGO, we wouldn't have the = Magazine TAO, workshops, many of the concerts and to some, help with salary and getting a new job. I have made some lasting frienships in AGO. Lee  
(back) Subject: french fun! From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:16:47 EDT   Found this fun website: _http://www.concertartist.info/organhistory/history/menu15.htm_ (http://www.concertartist.info/organhistory/history/menu15.htm) ___________________________________________________________________________= ___ _________ _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ _______________________________ ________________ Gregory Francis Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Avenue # GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile _Home Email: gfc234@aol.com_ (mailto:gfc234@aol.com) _Mobile Email: gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net_ (mailto:gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net)    
(back) Subject: RE: matchmaking opportunity From: "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@msn.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 03:18:35 -0500   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: Experience with copyrights From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:52:45 +0800   I'm sure your speaker has a good reason for the selection of music. I'd do= my best to find out the titles and adapt them to your church's style. Bull= dozing over your established order and style of worship seems to me a littl= e like inviting an aquaintance over for fellowship and having them show up= on your doorstep with their own easy chair, throw rug and bucket of paint= becuase they might not like the way your home is decorated.   While I would try to accomodate the speaker as best as possible within the= scope of the estabished service, I would not allow him/her to dictate a co= mplete change.   If he/she still insists on using a CD (and your pastor isn't willing to cha= llenge its use) you could offer the use a well underpowered portable player= .. (... but that would be mean.)     ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Wheelock <llwheels@mac.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:30:56 -0500 To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org>,Pipe Related Topics Organs and <PIPORG= -L@listserv.albany.edu> Subject: Experience with copyrights   > I have just been informed that our congregation will have a guest=20 > speaker in September who has requested some type of (unknown) "Praise=20 > Band" music. The alternative she suggests is that she can play a CD of=20 > the music she wants during the worship. >=20 > I asked the pastor to inquire what she wished to emphasize with such=20 > musc -- perhaps we can accomplish her goals with music more familiar=20 > to us. I asked that she be informed that A. We do not have a "Praise=20 > Band, and B. We do not do very much of that sort of music BY CHOICE. >=20 > I have told the pastor that we must have all the details of the exact=20 > CD and selections to be used so that we can obtain Copyright permission= =20 > to play the CD in public worship. Does anyone in this group have=20 > experience in dealing with commercial record companies about such=20 > permissions. We have frequently obtained permissions for reprints, etc,= =20 > but in the past, when I have told people wishing to use 'canned" music=20 > that they had to arrange copyright permission, they have (up 'til now)=20 > abandoned the idea. >=20 > What experiences have you had? >=20 >=20 > Larry Wheelock > Director of Music Ministries > Kenwood United Methodist Church > Milwaukee, Wisconsin musicdirector@kenwood-umc.org     -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm   >