PipeChat Digest #4947 - Wednesday, December 1, 2004
 
"Love Actually" venue?
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Alkmaar wind pressures
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: UGH, let's try that AGAIN
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
speaker longevity
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
RE: Alkmaar wind pressures
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: speaker longevity
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: speaker longevity
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
RE: Organ Repertoire
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
RE: 11 yr old "child prodigy" composer Jay Greenberg  [marginally on-topi
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
What do organists prefer to play?
  by "Ned Benson" <nbenson@stjohnschurch.org>
organs on the coast
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers
  by "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
Re: UGH, let's try that AGAIN
  by "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com>
Improvisation on the theremin [marginally on-topic]
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Re: organs on the coast
  by "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
RE: organs on the coast
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
RE: 11 yr old "child prodigy" composer Jay Greenberg  [marginally on-topi
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
 

(back) Subject: "Love Actually" venue? From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 07:23:06 EST   Speaking of movies, can someone identify the church and organ in the = opening scene of "Love Actually"?  
(back) Subject: Alkmaar wind pressures From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 04:49:27 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I have been able to confirm via Dutch friends, that the wind pressure of the whole instrument at St.Laurens, Alkmaar (Hagabeer/F C Schnitger) is, as I suspected, exactly 76mm....more or less the national standard in Holland for organs of the period.   That's almost exactly 3" wg.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK           __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:47:10 -0500   At 03:26 AM 2004-12-01 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Colin and all, > I think a thirty year life for speakers is wildly optimistic in = most > climates. The foam that supports the outside of the speaker = deteriorates > before then in most cases. I would say twenty years is still a lot. Of =   > course, the speakers can be repaired or reconed, so they don't need to = be > entirely replaced, at least the first time. I don't know whether this > means you are overestimating or underestimating the cost. Surely by > thirty years out the original speakers would be obsolete and need to be > replaced with something state of the art, so I guess that the repair on > the speaker at 15 years does increase the cost some. > Assuming no falling pipes or boneheaded conservators damaging the > tracker, it should go soldiering on . . . >Best Regards, >Roy Kersey   Roy,   Where I am (Toronto, Canada), and being an organ service repair person, I can tell you that there are many speakers in electronic organs that are well over 20 years old. It is true that large cone speakers with foam suspensions, will need to be re-coned in time, but the situation that we have today is that the foam used in the 70s, was not very good, and = usually they were cause of a service call after 20 or 25 years.   We try to avoid foam suspensions, but is not always possible. Most of our =   woofers have a rolled rubber suspension, which is still fine after 20 years, and the ones I have examined, seem as good as new.   It is a truism, that once something gets a bad reputation, that notion takes a long time to die. In the 50s piano manufacturers started using plastics in some parts. It was a disaster, as the plastics aged, got brittle and crumbled, causing no end to troubles with the actions. Today, =   piano salesmen are still selling against plastics. Same with foam suspended speaker drivers. My guess is the new speakers today with foam surrounds, will last a whole lot longer than the stuff made 20 or 30 years =   ago. I would assume they will last longer in adverse climates as well.   Arie V.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263      
(back) Subject: Re: UGH, let's try that AGAIN From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:55:53 -0500   At 07:23 PM 2004-11-30 -0500, you wrote: >erzahler@sbcglobal.net ("Nate") said: "Repeated mockery of my use of a >legitimate word aside, none of this answers my question: Are we going to =   >start >dumping on each others work to get ahead?" > >Okay, here we go: >Yes, "advert" is a legitimate word. >No, it is not a noun. >It is a verb. > >Now, on with the business at hand: >I DID answer your question, so now you can answer some of MINE. > >Where in their marketing campaign literature did Marshall & Ogletree = "knock" >pipe organ builders and their work? In which sentence did they disparage >craftsmanship? In what portion of the presentation did they attack pipe >organs on >musical grounds? While the entire tenor of the marketing campaign may = imply >that their instruments are a better choice, where did they actually SAY >it? What >verbiage actually attacked pipe organs, the art of organbuilding, or any >particular organbuilder? Frankly, these chatlists are FULL of attacks on >pipe organ >builders, so there is no need for Torrence & Yaeger or Marshall & = Ogletree to >purchase two full pages for an attack advertisement. > >Yes, there are a few organists who prefer pipe organs, but most have >repeatedly and proudly stated that they simply don't care, and are happy >with any >substitute so long as it is large, is loud, and has many flashy controls. =   >THAT >should concern us FAR more than a marketing program that asks legitimate >questions -- WITHOUT "knocking" the pipe organ. > >It would be MUCH easier to be angry if it WERE an attack, but they are >spoon-feeding organists exactly what they wish to hear. Pipe organ >builders feel >helpless because organists CHOOSE substitutes. Digital instrument >manufacturers >are successful because of organists. Remember, they have NO control over >peoples' brains, peoples' standards, or the choices they make. > >Sebastian M. Gluck >New York City   Hi,   It would be strange for Marshall & Ogletree to attack pipe organs, as they =   are a large Rodgers dealership, that does pipe electronic work. Not only that, they are also agents for Ruffatti, the Italian pipe organ firm.   Arie V.      
(back) Subject: speaker longevity From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:00:15 -0800   10-15 years in coastal southern California; about the same in the desert; less, if the speakers are placed high up in the church and get "baked." Don't know about the mountains ...   "But my 30-year-old XYZ still has its original speakers, and it plays just FINE."   Well, if you're happy with your XYZ's 30-year-old technology and the sound that it produces, great; I imagine it's probably a home practice organ. I can't think of many churches (aside from those who own Hammonds) that would be satisfied with 30-year-old sound and technology.   Which brings us round to the LONG-TERM cost comparison between wind-blown and digital.   I still have a Trash-80 computer; I don't USE it very much (grin).     Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:14:11 -0500   > > It is a truism, that once something gets a bad reputation, that > notion takes a long time to die. In the 50s piano manufacturers > started using plastics in some parts. It was a disaster, as the > plastics aged, got brittle and crumbled, causing no end to troubles > with the actions. Today, piano salesmen are still selling against > plastics. Same with foam suspended speaker drivers. My guess is > the new speakers today with foam surrounds, will last a whole lot > longer than the stuff made 20 or 30 years ago. I would assume they > will last longer in adverse climates as well. > I have to admit this is very true. This phenomenon certainly applies to electropneumatics in pipe organs (there was bad leather for a while) and = to direct electric action (before diodes).   Andy   A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com    
(back) Subject: RE: Alkmaar wind pressures From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 06:45:04 +1300     >I have been able to confirm via Dutch friends, that the wind pressure of the whole instrument at St.Laurens, Alkmaar (Hagabeer/F C Schnitger) is, as I suspected, exactly 76mm....more or less the national standard in Holland for organs of the period.   OK, I now do a very public grovelling apology to Colin about there being 4.5" wind at Alkmaar. My only defence is that I read this in an organ journal as an unassailable fact and, perhaps stupidly, presumed it was therefore fact.   Is that sufficient obeisance, Colin? May I return to the fold? Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: speaker longevity From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:40:48 -0500   I have two speakers in cabinets that I designed and built in 1954, - so they are 50 years old!   They are Goodmans 12 inch Audium (I think that is what they were called) which I bought at the Goodmans Factory in Wembley, England , and had them match them up so that they were a matched pair. They have a neoprene surround to the speakers, which has stood up all these years without any deterioration.   They are each mounted in a 9 cu.ft. ported cabinet, and have a separate = mid range and tweeter in a small enclosure that stands on the top of the big cabinet.   They survived the crossing of the pond in 1969, and are still performing well every day!   Just my tuppence worth!   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Re: speaker longevity From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:17:41 +0800   Waiting for the Antiques Roadshow to come to town?   Seriously, reedging/reconing isn't that expensive ... without endorsement, = see: http://www.speakerrepair.com/OCSreprc.html and http://www.speakerrepai= r.com/ocsrepairprice.html. Add $29.95 if you do it yourself first and then = send it out to be done right. :-)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Liquescent <quilisma@cox.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: speaker longevity Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:00:15 -0800 =20 > I still have a Trash-80 computer; I don't USE it very much (grin). >=20 > Cheers, > Bud =20 -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: RE: Organ Repertoire From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:22:51 -0500   It sounds as though you want: _Organ Literature, a Comprehensive Survey_ by Corliss Arnold (Scarecrow Press). It is about half index of works by composer, with opus and publication info, and half narrative organized as you wish: by period and national school of composition.   =20   I seem to recall that the second edition is in two volumes, but we don't have it here. After its publication, a reviewer opined that the content is not different enough from the first edition to require updating for most libraries.   =20   =20    
(back) Subject: Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:32:05 +0800   Bad rap for those 50's/60's plastic jacks. Kawai is using ABS all over it's= piano actions. (Let alone all the plastic that is used to finish the "wood= work" of almost all pianos nowadays.)   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:14:11 -0500   > > It is a truism, that once something gets a bad reputation, that=20 > > notion takes a long time to die. In the 50s piano manufacturers=20 > > started using plastics in some parts. It was a disaster, as the=20 > > plastics aged, got brittle and crumbled, causing no end to=20 > > troubles with the actions. Today, piano salesmen are still=20 > > selling against plastics. Same with foam suspended speaker=20 > > drivers. My guess is the new speakers today with foam surrounds,=20 > > will last a whole lot longer than the stuff made 20 or 30 years=20 > > ago. I would assume they will last longer in adverse climates as=20 > > well. > > > I have to admit this is very true. This phenomenon certainly applies to > electropneumatics in pipe organs (there was bad leather for a while) and = to > direct electric action (before diodes). >=20 > Andy   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: RE: 11 yr old "child prodigy" composer Jay Greenberg [marginally on-topic, x... From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:32:33 -0500   * Master" is a "Mister" diminutive for gentlemen under the age of majority and has nothing to do with the mastery of anything in particular). ;)   =20   =20   =20   > Dear Bill,=20   > I find your comments on the title "Master' bringing back many memories of my birthday cards as a child when they > would be addressed as Master Paul Valtos   =20   So do I, and (to be a little topical) shouldn't we use it ourselves for correspondence with our choristers? But I doubt that a 17-year-old would be addressed as "master" or would feel honored if he were. My understanding is that it applies only up to age 13 or so. Anyone have Amy Vanderbilt or Emily Post handy?   =20   =20   =20    
(back) Subject: What do organists prefer to play? From: "Ned Benson" <nbenson@stjohnschurch.org> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:43:55 -0800   I'm not an organist, but I know more about how the machines work than any organist who's ever played where I've worked.   I believe that 90+% of folks in the pews can't tell the difference between a high-dollar digital instrument and an equivalent cost acoustic pipe instrument. It has been my experience that the 10% who can tell the difference include most choristers and every organist with whom I've worked. Do not discount the importance of the 10% and the organist.   If one goal of a music program is to develop the people's capability in praise of God (and it is for Presbyterians), is there a difference in the potential for pursuing this goal effectively between a digital and an acoustic pipe instrument?   Talented organists are in short supply. It's a "seller's market, esp. in Nevada where we have lots of musicians (casino and club trade) but few churchfolk or church musicians. If a talented organist has a choice of taking a job where s/he'll play a digital, and another job where s/he'll play a good acoustic pipe, which job will s/he more likely take?   How important is the capability, personality, etc. of the organist/choirmaster in the development of a music program?   If the quality of the instrumental sound is important to musicians among members, and they are the ones who can tell the difference between digital and acoustic pipe, which sort of instrument is more likely to draw musician members into active participation in the church's music program?   In my experience these factors favor investing in the acoustic pipe instrument every time. -- Dr. Ned H. Benson St. John's Presbyterian Church 1070 West Plumb Lane Reno, Nevada 89509 http://www.stjohnschurch.org    
(back) Subject: organs on the coast From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:49:45 -0800   The somewhat strange combination of salt air and LOW humidity at certain times of the year, like now (the Santa Ana winds off the desert keep away the onshore flow) does bad things to speakers and electronic/electrical components in San Diego.   Recently there was a large custom 3m Allen (designed by Phelps) on the market locally. It was built in the 1980s. I think somebody finally bought it, but it was going to require a complete overhaul ... speakers, key contacts, relays, etc. It had been in a Lutheran church, and very well cared for. I remember playing it when it was new.   In fairness, pipe organs don't fare much better, except for the 3m Fritts-Richards tracker in All Souls' Church out on Point Loma, which has NO electrical components except the blower. The Schlicker in the military academy chapel at Carlsbad (ON the ocean) suffers from major corrosion of key contacts and reed-pipes; the 1960s Moller console at All Saints' had to be redone, the 1970s Schlicker at Pilgrim Lutheran in Chula Vista had to have new key contacts, etc. etc. etc.   I'd be interested to hear organ-builders' takes on organ maintenance in coastal areas ... I know NYC is notorious, but I understand that to be primarily air pollution.   Cheers,   Bud       Bob Conway wrote:   > I have two speakers in cabinets that I designed and built in 1954, - so > they are 50 years old! > > They are Goodmans 12 inch Audium (I think that is what they were called) =   > which I bought at the Goodmans Factory in Wembley, England , and had > them match them up so that they were a matched pair. They have a > neoprene surround to the speakers, which has stood up all these years > without any deterioration. > > They are each mounted in a 9 cu.ft. ported cabinet, and have a separate > mid range and tweeter in a small enclosure that stands on the top of the =   > big cabinet. > > They survived the crossing of the pond in 1969, and are still performing =   > well every day! > > Just my tuppence worth! > > Bob Conway > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:54:01 -0000   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:32 PM Subject: Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers   [snip] "Bad rap for those 50's/60's plastic jacks. Kawai is using ABS all over = it's piano actions." __________________________   ABS 'used' to mean 'Anti-lock Braking Sysytems' - well, it did, to me - = and most car brochures and adverts I've ever read.   But I can be wrong (on occasions).   Harry Grove (a.k.a. a musicman delighted that pianists can now be brought to a sudden halt) __________________________________   'Give me a laundry list and I'll set it to music.' Gioacchino Antonio Rossini    
(back) Subject: Re: UGH, let's try that AGAIN From: "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:29:42 -0500   At 07:23 PM 30/11/2004 -0500, TubaMagna@aol.com swatted Nathan with: >Okay, here we go: >Yes, "advert" is a legitimate word. >No, it is not a noun.   Yes, it most certainly is a noun. Since daily usage by millions doesn't seem validation enough, I ran a few searches.     From the Merriam-Webster dictionary (at www.m-w.com for anyone who would like to see for themselves):   Main Entry: 2ad=B7vert Pronunciation: 'ad-"v&rt Function: noun chiefly British : ADVERTISEMENT       Similar results also appear in:   Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary Copyright =A9 2003 by Cambridge University Press   The American Heritage=AE Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth = Edition Copyright =A9 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company   WordNet =AE 2.0, =A9 2003 Princeton University              
(back) Subject: Improvisation on the theremin [marginally on-topic] From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:59:31 -0800   Paul Emmons asked,   =3D-> But do people often use the theremin as a vehicle for improvisation? <-=3D     Oh, absolutely. In fact, I'd say the theremin is used as much (if not more) for improvisational performances as it is for written works. The problem is that improvisations on the theremin tend to lean toward what one calls "wabble and woooo" stuff --- atonal, avant garde stylings that are passed off as good music but indeed actually no more than random, haphazard waving-about of one's hands.   The "freedom" of having absolute glissando is too-often used as an excuse to wander out of western tonality and into tonalities that derive from somewhere in the Pl=E9iades! This kind of stuff is loved by the John Cage set of course, and vilified by everyone else -- especially, again, the "great unwashed."   There are, however, also 'legitimate' [e.g., melodic] improvisational uses of the instrument. On some of the studio work I have done, the composer has suggested I play improvised motifs rather than adhere to what he has written out. That does often yield better results, depending on how knowledgeable the composer is about the theremin and how it is played.   ~ C      
(back) Subject: Re: organs on the coast From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:59:51 -0000   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 6:49 PM Subject: organs on the coast     [snip] > In fairness, pipe organs don't fare much better, except for the 3m > Fritts-Richards tracker in All Souls' Church out on Point Loma, which = has > NO electrical components except the blower. The Schlicker in the = military > academy chapel at Carlsbad (ON the ocean) suffers from major corrosion = of > key contacts and reed-pipes; the 1960s Moller console at All Saints' had =   > to be redone, the 1970s Schlicker at Pilgrim Lutheran in Chula Vista had =   > to have new key contacts, etc. etc. etc.   I live inland and the only reminder of coastal matters are the sea-gulls (Herring Gulls) seen wheeling around the land-fill sites.   Tell me, those of you "who like to be be-side the sea-side" and live in UK =   coastal towns, are you experiencing similar problems with your organs to those outlined above ?   Harry Grove [a.k.a. a land-bound musicman] _______________________________________________   'Too many pieces of music finish too long after they should have ended.' Igor Stravinsky    
(back) Subject: RE: organs on the coast From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:22:11 +1300   >Tell me, those of you "who like to be be-side the sea-side" and live in = UK coastal towns, are you experiencing similar problems with your organs to those outlined above ?   I live in New Zealand, 13000 miles (approx.) from the UK, but I must say I've never heard that being near the sea makes any problems to an organ. I have an electric-action-on-slider-chest pipe organ that for the first 25 years of its life was 200 yards from the beach and is now less than half a mile away. Not the slightest problem.   Wellington Cathedral, about 300 yards from the sea, has never had any problems - and that's a large 4m. Eastbourne Anglican has been going about 40 years, yet that's only 150 yards from the sea - it's a 3rk unit job. I could multiply this list by probably another 45 without little effort - = and none of the organs have had any trouble caused by being near the beach.   FWIW, sea air doesn't really affect phosphor bronze, silver, gold, aluminium, or zinc, or indeed pipe metal.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Grains of Rice for Speakers From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:45:56 -0500   ABS plastic: noun: any of a class of plastics based on Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene copolymers   You are probably most familiar with ABS plastic in your car dashboard, and =   exterior plastic parts, but the stuff is used all over the place.   Andy   > > [snip] > "Bad rap for those 50's/60's plastic jacks. Kawai is using ABS all > over it's piano actions." __________________________ > > ABS 'used' to mean 'Anti-lock Braking Sysytems' - well, it did, to > me - and most car brochures and adverts I've ever read. > > But I can be wrong (on occasions). > > Harry Grove   A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com  
(back) Subject: RE: 11 yr old "child prodigy" composer Jay Greenberg [marginally on-topic, x... From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:54:01 -0500   We'd better go back to using "thee", "thou", and "ye" in everyday speech too, I suppose! English, like any language, is dynamic, and it changes in =   different directions in different English speaking countries, again like = any other language. We do not have to feel obligated to use obsolete language =   or language that is used in another country just because that's the way it "used to be"!! I'll stick with what IS instead of what WAS thanks!   Andy     On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:32:33 -0500, Emmons, Paul wrote > * Master" is a "Mister" diminutive for gentlemen under the age > of majority and has nothing to do with the mastery of anything in > particular). ;) > > > > Dear Bill, > > > I find your comments on the title "Master' bringing back many > memories of my birthday cards as a child when they > would be addressed > as Master Paul Valtos > > > > So do I, and (to be a little topical) shouldn't we use it ourselves for > correspondence with our choristers? But I doubt that a 17-year-old > would be addressed as "master" or would feel honored if he were. My > understanding is that it applies only up to age 13 or so. Anyone > have Amy Vanderbilt or Emily Post handy?       A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com