PipeChat Digest #4953 - Thursday, December 2, 2004
 
Re: an advert of interest
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
RE: The Organist's Ball.
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
RE: nomenclature(was11 yr old "child prodigy")
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
RE: The Organist's Ball.
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
RE: The Organist's Ball.
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
RE: The Organist's Ball.
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
RE: nomenclature(was11 yr old "child prodigy")
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
How does one inspire lust?
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Re: Organ Repertoire
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
Re: End the manipulation and twisting of truth
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Organ Repertoire
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: How does one inspire lust?
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: nomenclature(was11 yr old "child prodigy")
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: an advert of interest From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 09:25:15 -0600   Hello, Nathan, et al: =20 You bring up some challenging ideas.   > Firstly, this whole issue of my using the=20 > word "advert" is absolutely silly. =20 Ah, yes! My language arts teachers during=20 my school days were fond of saying that the=20 ultimate objective of the English language=20 is to communicate in straight-forward, simple=20 declarative sentences. =20 > Perhaps builders should start giving discounts=20 > to Churches that replace electronics with their=20 > pipe organs. Perhaps there should be a foundation=20 > that offers matching grants to any Church replacing=20 > an electronic with a pipe organ.=20 =20 In the logical progress of achievement of excellency,=20 replacing E-orgs with pipe organs would be reasonable. =20 =20 However, in a relativism society, not all excellency=20 is equal. During the summer of 1954, I was a music=20 specialist appointed by the Baptist General Convention=20 of Texas to conduct "Church Music Schools" in Texas. =20 It was great fun, and I was amazed at how much talent=20 I found in rural settings and small towns. However,=20 none of those schools had organs. We did everyting=20 from a piano. Moving a small church group with about=20 40 people attending our schools from "I'll Fly Away,=20 O Lordy," to a reasonable setting in four-part harmony=20 typical of Felix Christiansen's "Beautiful Savior" was=20 progress. I suspect that many on this list would think=20 that such work was curious, at best, and wonder why we=20 wasted our energies on such poorly depraved cultures.=20 <grins> =20 Our Director had in mind to teach Church Music and get=20 the "Stamps-Baxter" music out of our worship styles. =20 He wanted us to instill an appreciation for a higher=20 form/style of music that focused our attention on God,=20 Himself, . . . which we agreed would be progressive=20 in our rural small church cultures. =20 At coffee time, we would talk among ourselves (leaders=20 of the Church Music Schools) as what we might leave=20 with these small churches that would be progressive in=20 musical expression. We emphasized learning the great=20 hymns of the Church, and that would put everything=20 else in perspective, including tuning the pianos at=20 least once a year, and (maybe) installing an organ=20 if the church could afford one. =20 Oh, . . . !!! The Hammond was the recommended organ=20 of choice because it stayed in tune and required no=20 maintenance. So, our ultimate objectives of a pipe=20 organ in these small churches would now (in 2004) be=20 considered a misguided progression. <grins> =20 Your perspective based in 2004 is proper. We should=20 be aware of the great tradition of hymnody expressed=20 on typical instruments of the era which inspired the=20 writing of most of our hymns. No contest on that=20 score. =20 > The problem is that people are indeed easily swayed=20 > by what they see and hear. Many people, not through=20 > any fault of their own, do not have the same=20 > sensitivities and knowledge as pipe organ people do.=20 > This has been proven time and time again as hundreds=20 > of pipe organs have been lost, destroyed, hopelessly=20 > slaughtered through unsympathetic modifications, or=20 > even had their pipes smashed by speaker cabinets. =20 Oh, yeah!!! Let me think a moment. This is a notorious=20 practice of at least one of our E-org manufacturers, and=20 the glee experienced during the setup of that brand of=20 organ never seems to make sense to me. We have to=20 isolate one particular manufacturer to pick on that=20 practice, however, and we don't want to do that as we=20 keep the playing field level. =20 If I go to a doctor and ask why my chest is congested,=20 he could give me the technical descriptions in medical=20 language, and I would probably miss the diagnosis. =20 However, if he says, "Your blood vessels are clogged=20 and you need them cleaned out to provide sufficient=20 air through your lungs. We fix it, or you will die." =20 =20 Oversimplification explanations are in order when=20 educating prospects, ". . . because they lack the=20 sensitivities and knowledge" that pipe organ people=20 do. I find it unthinkable that we leave the people=20 more confused after our explanations that they were=20 before we "helped" them with our sensitivities and=20 knowledge. One person who had listened to an organ=20 presentation (verbal proposal for a competitor) told=20 me, later, that he was impressed with the display=20 of knowledge expressed by the organ builder, but=20 was convinced that the pipe organ solution for his=20 church was overly complex for singing gospel songs=20 and hymns (which was about 80 percent of their=20 music style), . . . and they rejected the proposal. =20 We must find ways to connect our experience with=20 the understandings of those commissioned by the=20 churches to select suitable pipe organs. =20 > Let us examine the portion that concerns a certain=20 > concert hall that charges $6,000 fees to support=20 > the organ. =20 Well, it doesn't take a lot of high math to calculate=20 expense. If we get what we pay for, then we need to=20 know what expenses go with it to keep it in proper=20 playing condition. =20 Many years ago, it was easily obtainable information=20 that the Morman Tabernacle organ had a crew of 10 men=20 who went through the organ as time permitted to keep=20 it tuned, regulated, and the action(s) functioning=20 properly. That was a large organ. The Mormans were=20 pleased to have it, and willing to pay to keep it in=20 good condition. How much is the expense of 10 service=20 technicians anually? . . . even at church-based rates? =20 Go figure. That expense is rarely presented to the=20 church organ selection committee. Of course not. =20 As I wrote a couple of days ago, the organ in my own=20 church has to be tuned four times per year to stay=20 close to playability, and that speaks only of playing=20 in tune; not realted maintenance. That level of=20 expense was not considered in the purchase agreement. =20 > What if a builder, electronic or not, had no=20 > problem with ripping out a Toledo Holy Rosary=20 > Skinner . . . ? * * * Do you not think some=20 > builder would do it? It's already happened many=20 > times to many organs. =20 Surely, no pipe organ builder would do something like=20 that (. . . tongue firmly in cheek. . . ), would they? =20 =20 As for having large overhead expense levels, that is=20 the essence of good management. Look at what Delta=20 Airlines is doing at Dallas-Fort Worth International=20 Airport. They are reducing overhead expense, and=20 7000 jobs will be lost in the next few months, but=20 they are doing what has to be done to stay in business. =20 Too many pipe organ companies could not manage their=20 affairs well enough to stay "in business." =20 At this point, maybe we should look at the essence=20 of the pipe organ builder's reason for being in=20 business. Or, . . .better yet, let's not go there,=20 for we may find that the love of the instrument=20 led the builder into business, but when that man=20 died, so did the business for it had no basis to=20 carry on into the future. "Where there is no=20 vision, the people perish," someone much wiser=20 than I said. I am sure it applies to being in=20 business, too. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: RE: The Organist's Ball. From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:29:24 -0000   Mr. & Mrs Anella and their sensitive son Camp Anella!   Will Light Coventry UK      
(back) Subject: RE: nomenclature(was11 yr old "child prodigy") From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 09:30:09 -0600   =20   You've got some good points there, although I think it is appropriate to put=20   a much different priority on precision and correctness on things like stop=20   engravings than what comes out of my mouth in everyday speech.   =20   I think perhaps you're got a point, although I make every effort to place a high priority on my everyday speech, too. Nevertheless:   =20   Incidentally, as far as stop nomenclature goes, except in cases where an     organ is clearly a copy of a particular historic school, I'm a fan of names=20   like Oboe, Trumpet, Stopped Flute, Open Diapason, Chimney Flute, Mixture,=20   Octave, etc, etc.=20   =20   Perhaps if you were building an organ in a French style, this list might look like Hautbois, Trompette, Bourdon, Montre, Flute a'Cheminee, Prestant, etc.   =20   I think, though even your (I suppose you wanted it to be) generic list looks an awful lot like what you might see on Baroque and Classical English organs. So even it is somewhat a copy of a historic school.   =20   But more important that that, to me, is that when one begins to use one system of nomenclature-whatever it is-that one sticks with it completely. Calling out a 8' Principal and 4' Prestant in the same organ seems inconsistent to me, but I see it in many organs, eclectic or not!   =20   Especially on smaller organs where there is but one fully=20   stopped flute, there is no need to call it anything but stopped flute, or if=20   you must, "stopped diapason". This would take away a lot of confusion right=20   there! On larger organs with multiple divisions, you do have the need to=20   have different colors and the names need to be more descriptive of course.   =20   Andy   =20   To a certain degree, I think, but not so that you have confusing an non-consistent nomenclature all in the same organ. I wouldn't have a problem with naming the 4' Octave rank in a large organ the same thing in every division: 4' Octave. Is it necessary to call it 4' Octave in the Great, 4' Principal in the choir, and 4' Geigen in the Swell?   =20   Which brings to mind another question: If a particular organ had an extended Dulciana rank, at 16, 8, 4, pitches, should they all be called "Dulciana," or "Double Dulciana," "Dulciana," and "Dulcet?"   =20   Daniel   =20   =20  
(back) Subject: RE: The Organist's Ball. From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:30:36 -0000   From Ireland, Mr. & Mrs O'Glott and their son Chris O'Glott   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of bobelms Sent: 02 December 2004 13:38 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: The Organist's Ball.   So was Miss Clara Bell BE ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:59 PM Subject: Re: The Organist's Ball.     > Entries for the attendants at the "Organist's Ball" > > Was Prince Ipple there? > > He certainly was! And he brought with him his friends Mr. and Mrs.=20 > Pneumatic > and their daughter Electra Pneumatic! > > "I believe I saw her out in the garden, in the chill of the evening,=20 > talking to the daughter of my old pal, 'Hat-pegs'. > > You know, Chap; Pal Hat-pegs" ................ (keep working at it, = it'll=20 > come). > > Otherwise, go straight to Mornington Crescent. > > Harry Grove > [a.k.a. a musicman - but obviously no comedian] > __________________________________________ > > "Nothing separates the generations more than music. By the time a = child is   > eight or nine, he has developed a passion for his own music that is = even=20 > stronger than his passions for procrastination and weird clothes." > Bill Cosby > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: RE: The Organist's Ball. From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:32:51 -0000   Mr & Mrs Ana and their daughter Dulcie!     Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of bobelms Sent: 02 December 2004 13:38 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: The Organist's Ball.   So was Miss Clara Bell BE ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:59 PM Subject: Re: The Organist's Ball.     > Entries for the attendants at the "Organist's Ball" > > Was Prince Ipple there? > > He certainly was! And he brought with him his friends Mr. and Mrs.=20 > Pneumatic > and their daughter Electra Pneumatic! > > "I believe I saw her out in the garden, in the chill of the evening,=20 > talking to the daughter of my old pal, 'Hat-pegs'. > > You know, Chap; Pal Hat-pegs" ................ (keep working at it, = it'll=20 > come). > > Otherwise, go straight to Mornington Crescent. > > Harry Grove > [a.k.a. a musicman - but obviously no comedian] > __________________________________________ > > "Nothing separates the generations more than music. By the time a = child is   > eight or nine, he has developed a passion for his own music that is = even=20 > stronger than his passions for procrastination and weird clothes." > Bill Cosby > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: RE: The Organist's Ball. From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:35:45 -0000   Mr. and Mrs Icional, and their daughter Sal.   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of bobelms Sent: 02 December 2004 13:38 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: The Organist's Ball.   So was Miss Clara Bell BE ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:59 PM Subject: Re: The Organist's Ball.     > Entries for the attendants at the "Organist's Ball" > > Was Prince Ipple there? > > He certainly was! And he brought with him his friends Mr. and Mrs.=20 > Pneumatic > and their daughter Electra Pneumatic! > > "I believe I saw her out in the garden, in the chill of the evening,=20 > talking to the daughter of my old pal, 'Hat-pegs'. > > You know, Chap; Pal Hat-pegs" ................ (keep working at it, = it'll=20 > come). > > Otherwise, go straight to Mornington Crescent. > > Harry Grove > [a.k.a. a musicman - but obviously no comedian] > __________________________________________ > > "Nothing separates the generations more than music. By the time a = child is   > eight or nine, he has developed a passion for his own music that is = even=20 > stronger than his passions for procrastination and weird clothes." > Bill Cosby > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: RE: nomenclature(was11 yr old "child prodigy") From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:52:38 -0800 (PST)     --- Daniel Hancock <dhancock@brpae.com> wrote:     [snip] > > Which brings to mind another question: If a > particular organ had an > extended Dulciana rank, at 16, 8, 4, pitches, should > they all be called > "Dulciana," or "Double Dulciana," "Dulciana," and > "Dulcet?" > > > > Daniel   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D   Greetings!     I myself would prefer that the various pitches be listed as "Dulciana..." thus indicating that the three pitches were extensions of the same rank...   On my church's former organ, the Swell Gedeckt 16' (Tenor C), 8', 4', 2 2/3', and 2 were all listed as Gedeckt, thus indicating that they all came from the same rank...   At a nearby organ, the Pedal 16' Principal is an extension of the Great Principal... But the independent Pedal 8' rank is also listed as Principal, even though it does not come from the Great Principal... most confusing, unless you are aware of the specific ranks in that organ...   Best wishes to all...     Morton Belcher fellow list member...             > > > > >       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: How does one inspire lust? From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:53:50 -0500   What's your opinion on what it takes to inspire lust in the heart for a particular instrument...   Some committees are out in a buying frenzy, while others are guided by shining light...and organist who lusts after something.   With me I can say I have lusted after the old Casavant console at Madison Avenue Presbyterian, NYC, which felt like sitting at a Rolls Royce; a Schantz K=F6ppelfl=F6te on the Choir at the Kent State University =   Recital Hall, Kent, Ohio; a Geigen Diapason at First Baptist, Eighth Street in Chattanooga, TN.   I'd include in this list organs that are hard to leave...a few minutes of practice become hours...meals are missed,   I'm also talking about affordable objects, so the State Trumpet at St. John Divine and the room it is in do not qualify.   -- noel jones, aago noeljones@frogmusic.com ----------------------------------- 1 877 249-5251 Athens, TN USA   www.frogmusic.com Rodgers Organ Users Group Frog Music Press - Organ and MIDI Music FMP Organ Music Search Service Rodgers Organ Design & Voicing Services      
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Repertoire From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 09:57:54 -0600   No, I don't know that we are ALL so very ignorant of the entire organ repertoire. Many people are. Most people are. But not all.   The entire repertoire would take several lifetimes to study, certainly not just one.   Robert Lind   ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Mitchell <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:56 PM Subject: Re: Organ Repertoire     > You know, we are ALL so very ignorant of the entire > organ repertoire, which could take a lifetime of > study.    
(back) Subject: Re: End the manipulation and twisting of truth From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:03:41 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I stand to be corrected, but I have yet to find evidence of "tens of thousands" queing up to praise electronic organs. I see little evidence of people on Pipechat treating organ-builders with condecension or disgust.   It is simply not good enough to make sweeping statements about groups of people and/or individuals, unless one is able to provide specific evidence. They would then have the right to reply on the specific points as charged.   As for truth, that is always in the eyes of the beholder.   If I were to ask whether Sebastian "still built dreadful organs" and demand that he answer yes, or no, there is no answer which would save him from the musical gallows. Would that be "truth?"   (Of course, I haven't a clue what a Gluck organ sounds like, and they may indeed be excellent).   It is my view, that the best managers, educators and leaders, when taking people to task, always make people feel better for it. It is also my view, that the very worst managers, educators and leaders, are those who either draw attention to themselves by declaring their superiority, or who treat people as fools.   "Man, first know thyself."   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   > Is it really insulting to repeat what tens of > thousands of organ-players say? > > I was dealing with the truth..... > organists...... > express(ing) open contempt for pipe organ builders and > those with an interest in the > history of the instrument. > > > Is it not the depths of hypocrisy etc......     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Repertoire From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:10:49 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Is Mr Lind a Buddhist by any chance?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- Robert Lind <lindr@core.com> wrote:   > No, I don't know that we are ALL so very ignorant of > the entire organ > repertoire. > The entire repertoire would take several lifetimes > to study, certainly not > just one.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: How does one inspire lust? From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:16:48 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I think the word should have been "desire"......you know....as in, "Like as the heart, desireth the water brook."   Lusting after a water-brook is called narcissism.   Lusting after organ pipes is deeply disturbing!   A very concerned,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- noel jones <gedeckt@usit.net> wrote:   > What's your opinion on what it takes to inspire lust > in the heart for a > particular instrument...       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: RE: nomenclature(was11 yr old "child prodigy") From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:36:48 -0500   > Incidentally, as far as stop nomenclature goes, except in cases > where an organ is clearly a copy of a particular historic school, I'm a fan of names > > like Oboe, Trumpet, Stopped Flute, Open Diapason, Chimney Flute, > Mixture, Octave, etc, etc. > > Especially on smaller organs where there is but one fully > > stopped flute, there is no need to call it anything but stopped > flute, or if > > you must, "stopped diapason". This would take away a lot of > confusion right > > there! On larger organs with multiple divisions, you do have the > need to > > have different colors and the names need to be more descriptive of > course. > > Andy > > > To a certain degree, I think, but not so that you have confusing an > non-consistent nomenclature all in the same organ. I wouldn't have a > problem with naming the 4' Octave rank in a large organ the same > thing in every division: 4' Octave. Is it necessary to call it 4' > Octave in the Great, 4' Principal in the choir, and 4' Geigen in the > Swell? > > > Daniel   This is a good point. Perhaps I should extend my opinion to larger organs =   as well. Why shouldn't each 4' Octave be called 4' Octave? Well, = assuming there is an 8' Diapason in the division. It seems to be somewhat standard =   to call the base diapason "Open Diapason" and then the next one "Octave" = (I realize there are other systems too, like "Diapason, Principal, Octave). = So I guess I wouldn't call a choir 4' Principal "octave" unless there was an = 8' Diapason present. Or if 16', double open, or if 4', "principle" (I've = never seen a 4' named "open diapason" even if it is the start of the chorus. = But whatever... this is all beside your point. No need to come up with different names just for the sake of different names. If there's some special reason (the stop really is some historic copy) then fine.   I suppose one thing that made me say what I did is my agreement with = people that borrows and extensions should keep the same name of the stop they = come from. A side effect of this good practice is that if you give separate straight stops the same name, we become suspicious of unification where there isn't any. A good way to alleviate this is for borrowed stops to = have an abbreviation of the division they are borrowed from engraved in the = knob, and extended stops can have "ext" engraved in them. That way, it is = easier to know that if there's no such engraving, two stops with the same name = are indeed independent.   You are correct in assuming I meant my list to be generic. I have no problem with generic organs (not to be confused with "characterless" organs), in fact I tend to prefer them for most situations, which is that you have a small to medium organ that is expected to play all sorts of repertoire. If we don't like the word "generic" maybe we could say "well rounded". :) So I figure, if the organ is "well rounded" there's no need =   for specialized stop names.   Give me an organ with a variety of beautiful sounds that can logically go together in choruses, accompany each other, etc, etc, and I can register just about anything. Not perfectly accurately, perhaps, but musically. Historic examples are a great place to start, but I see no need to copy verbatim for "accuracy's" sake. But if the stop is generic, keep the name =   generic. That's all I'm saying, really.   Andy   A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com