PipeChat Digest #4954 - Thursday, December 2, 2004 Re: Organists' Ball by "Roy Kersey" <email@example.com> Re: End the manipulation and twisting of truth by "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: How does one inspire lust? by "Garrison Johnson" <email@example.com> Re: Nomenclature by <RMB10@aol.com> Harts of oak by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: How does one inspire lust? by "Margo Dillard" <email@example.com> RE: The Organist's Ball. by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Re: Nomenclature by <Gfc234@aol.com> RE: nomenclature...a particular stop by "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: nomenclature...a particular stop by "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Re: nomenclature...a particular stop by "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: an advert of interest by "Russ Greene" <email@example.com> Re: PipeChat Digest #4953 - 12/02/04 by "Charlie Lester" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: PipeChat Digest #4953 - 12/02/04 by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> pipe organs in chapels of churches by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: an advert of interest by "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Organists' Ball From: "Roy Kersey" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:42:22 +0000 Hello, Distinguished Musicians, I can no longer resist telling . . . I also attended the Organists' = Ball . . . it really was a very small affair, you know that organisits = have small balls . . . because hardly any of them can dance. At the Ball, I saw the Italian Ambassador, Sforzando Piston and the = dashing young Englishman, Toe Stud. Unfortunately, people kept stepping = on Toe Stud, who changed all night. Sforzando kept bursting out rudely = and talking about his German nephew, Rollerschwell. I met a deaf fellow, = Mr. Unison Off who was very nice, but the brothers Bigsy Legacy and Foxy = Legacy argued the whole night. The Ball came to a premature end when = cousins E. Org and Pip Org started brawling and wouldn't stop, as wild = charges and counter-charges filled the air. It was a pitty things had to = end like that, as most of the organists had only come to play and were not = that concerned about E. Org and Pip Org's endless disagreement. Some of = the organists were heard to say the both E. and Pip are prone to misquote = each other and to jump to conclusions. Most of the organists adjourned to the En Chamade Lounge, where the = music was too loud, but the conversation was good. Most of the Principals = were there and got very jolly, all talking at once. It made a wonderful = sound. They are very well-tempered. I hope I get to go to the Organists' Ball again next year. The = problem seems to be that those big fellows Contra Bombarde and Double O. = Wood both want to come and no one has found a chamber big enough for both = of them yet. I ugess the Organists' Ball is like a lot of other things in = life, its hard to get everybody to fit in and sound right. Best Regards, Roy Kersey Organ Enthusiast and Amateur Trumpeter
(back) Subject: Re: End the manipulation and twisting of truth From: "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:13:37 -0500 Seb, I'd have to agree with Colin here. I would like to add that I too think you could adjust your approach for the better. I like your posts = and have defended them on occasion. When you support real pipe organs and = other ideas, you do an excellent job of supporting your argument with facts and good logic. However, when you make your case against what you disagree with, you often resort to sweeping statements, insults, exaggerations, sarcasm and the like. I realize others do this too, but I call it to your = attention because your are the professional (one of them) and should never = let your posts get as ugly as some of yours have. I realize you are responding to some equally ugly posts against you, but this is no excuse. = Besides, I think you often start it, or are the first to "take the bait" when someone says something you disagree with seemingly to get your goat. You don't NEED to resort to all this. Please don't. You have the wisdom and expertise to easily get by without it. Its been getting ugly around here. The reason I'm singling you out is not because I think its your = fault its been happening, but because I think you are in the best position to = end it. Not end debates (that would be no fun) but to end the incivility. I know a story (a true one) of two hardware stores/ lumber yards near me. = When Home Depot came into town, each had a significant reaction to it. = One started complaining bitterly, protesting the situation, making = accusations, and generally feeling bitter about it, and not hiding it at all. The = other one came at it from a positive perspective, embracing the fact that Home Depot was here to stay, and they did what they needed to do to survive. They took better care of their customers than Home Depot ever could, they looked for items that Home Depot didn't carry, kept their quality better than Home Depot, etc, etc. Wouldn't you know, store #1 soon went under, = and the store #2 asked for a loan from the SBA (an agent of whom I heard this story from). The SBA, of course, raised an eyebrow to this idea. Turned out though, that they were so busy that they needed to add on to their facility to keep up. The SBA gave them the loan, and they are thriving today. From what I've seen, you are store #1. Knowledgeable and competent, but bitter and let people know it! Change your attitude now, and you can = avoid their fate, not only for your own business, but for pipe organs in = general. Andy On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:03:41 -0800 (PST), Colin Mitchell wrote > Hello, > > I stand to be corrected, but I have yet to find > evidence of "tens of thousands" queing up to praise > electronic organs. I see little evidence of people on > Pipechat treating organ-builders with condecension or > disgust. > > It is simply not good enough to make sweeping > statements about groups of people and/or individuals, > unless one is able to provide specific evidence. They > would then have the right to reply on the specific > points as charged. > > As for truth, that is always in the eyes of the > beholder. > > If I were to ask whether Sebastian "still built > dreadful organs" and demand that he answer yes, or no, > there is no answer which would save him from the > musical gallows. Would that be "truth?" > > (Of course, I haven't a clue what a Gluck organ sounds > like, and they may indeed be excellent). > > It is my view, that the best managers, educators and > leaders, when taking people to task, always make > people feel better for it. It is also my view, that > the very worst managers, educators and leaders, are > those who either draw attention to themselves by > declaring their superiority, or who treat people as > fools. > > "Man, first know thyself." > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > --- TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > > > Is it really insulting to repeat what tens of > > thousands of organ-players say? > > > > I was dealing with the truth..... > > organists...... > > express(ing) open contempt for pipe organ builders > and > > those with an interest in the > > history of the instrument. > > > > > > Is it not the depths of hypocrisy etc...... > > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: RE: How does one inspire lust? From: "Garrison Johnson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:22:46 -0500 The quotation is "Like as a hart." The hart being a deer. Jennie Mae & Garry J. The Johnsons 1913 Rockcreek Lane Flint MI 48507-2274 voice (810)233-7094 fax (810)233-7599 -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf Of Colin Mitchell Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 11:17 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: How does one inspire lust? Hello, I think the word should have been "desire"......you know....as in, "Like as the heart, desireth the water brook." Lusting after a water-brook is called narcissism. Lusting after organ pipes is deeply disturbing! A very concerned, Colin Mitchell UK --- noel jones <email@example.com> wrote: > What's your opinion on what it takes to inspire lust > in the heart for a > particular instrument... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Administration: mailto:email@example.com List-Subscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> List-Digest: <mailto:email@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: Nomenclature From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:54:29 EST Regarding nomenclature, there are rules of thumb, but at the same time, = many organists and organ builders just throw all caution to the wind and just = do as they please when they come up with stoplists. In the new organ for my church, I named the stops depending on the construction...if it was an English/American type stop, it got an English = name. If it was a French inspired stop, it got a French name. If it was an Italian = stop, it got an Italian name. However, I don't understand why people just randomly will call manual 4' Principal stops "Octave" when there is no 8' Principal in the division or = Pedal 8' Octave stops when there is no 16' Principal. What is it the Octave = for--the unison Flute? I also don't understand the obscure spellings of some stops--I have seen "Trumpette" on an organ before. It's a nice "Franglais" concoction. Even = on the organ at my church, I have a "Trompet en Chamade" A Dutch/French combination...interesting blend. Yet, on the knob in another division, it = is listed as Trompette en Chamade. On all the dedication brochures, it is listed with = this double spelling, so I know it's not supposed to be an error...it's just a = quirk of the instrument I play each and every week. The randomization of names on unit stops is always hysterical...I love it when a unit Gedeckt has names such as 16' Bourdon, 8' Gedeckt, 4' Flute Harmonique (??? Where'd that come from!), 2 2/3' Quinte, 2' Block Flute = (another open metal flute name!), 1 3/5' Tierce. One stop, playing six pitches, yet two = of them a CLEARLY open metal pipe names, and the two mutations, would often = be assumed to be metal pipes, too, when not a unified Tibia rank. I wish = that builders and organists would be clearer in naming what the stop truly is. = IF the stop is an Erzahler, label it as such. Don't list it as Dulciana. They = are different. The other thing that absolutely grates on my last nerve is the = new thing of calling a Resultant a "Faux Bourdon." A fauxbourdon is not a = pedal stop, it's a type of harmonization. I know that builders are trying to be = cute, by calling the 32' stop "faux" but if you pull it on, does the = organists harmony suddenly swtich all around, and the melody suddenly go to the = tenor when singing hymns and the other parts above it, or if singing chant suddenly swtich to simple three part voicing, the harmony being a fourth and a = sixth below the melody? Call the stop what it is...Resultant or Acoustic Bass. These days with computer controlled engravers, isn't it easy to have a = small "ext." engraved on a knob, or also a "Sw" or "Gt" or whatever, to indicate = a borrow from another division? I played a small 2 manual organ just recently that the 8' Flute on the = Great was borrowed from the Swell. It took a few minutes for me to realize this = because the knob was engraved with a different name. It was Rohrflute on = the Swell and Bourdon on the Great or somethig like that. I was trying to = figure out why I couldn't get the 8' Great flute to carry a solo line over the 8' Strings and 8' Flute on the Swell...well, if I had paid closer attention, = I would have realized the flute was the same stop. Nomenclature can be a big deal when you just have to walk in to play for a = service--when you live with an instrument day in and day out, it's = different. We need to be more consistent as musicians when we are designing organs = and we need to insist that builders be more consistant with what they engrave for = us. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Harts of oak From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 09:54:33 -0800 (PST) Hello, Well my deers, I did know the difference! Wordplay can be much more fun. Doe, a deer, a female deer, Ray, a fish that swims the sea, M.E. a programme we all know, (etc etc) Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- Garrison Johnson <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > The quotation is "Like as a hart." The hart being a > deer. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: How does one inspire lust? From: "Margo Dillard" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:56:11 -0600 er - except that that would be "like as the hart" - as in deer - Lusting after/desiiring a water brook would be thirst. I don't think deer have much interest in looking at their reflections.... Colin Mitchell wrote: > Hello, > > I think the word should have been "desire"......you > know....as in, "Like as the heart, desireth the water > brook." > > Lusting after a water-brook is called narcissism. > > Lusting after organ pipes is deeply disturbing! > > A very concerned, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > > --- noel jones <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > > >>What's your opinion on what it takes to inspire lust >>in the heart for a >>particular instrument... > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > http://my.yahoo.com > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:email@example.com> > List-Digest: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:email@example.com> > > -- Dr. Margo Dillard Organist, FUMC, Lewisville, TX Musical Feast Choral Society Dillard Piano & Organ Studio
(back) Subject: RE: The Organist's Ball. From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 07:02:50 +1300 >Will Light Coventry UK Do you get the tapers going in your church? Here, I sometimes find they Won't Light. Ross
(back) Subject: Re: Nomenclature From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:59:16 EST In a message dated 12/2/04 11:55:26 AM, RMB10@aol.com writes: > by calling the 32' stop "faux" but if you pull it on, does the organists > harmony suddenly swtich all around, and the melody suddenly go to the = tenor > when > singing hymns and the other parts above it, > now -that all depends, doesn't it? LOLOL :) Gregory Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile firstname.lastname@example.org email@example.com
(back) Subject: RE: nomenclature...a particular stop From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:28:01 -0800 (PST) Does anyone mind explaining the reed stop, Bassoon/Hautbois? One assumes = that it is a hybrid stop. What is unique about them? One source discloses that on some instruments, it is one rank that has one = voice at the bass, and another voice at the treble. However, that may have = been discredited. Enlighten. TDH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page =96 Try My Yahoo!
(back) Subject: RE: nomenclature...a particular stop From: "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:38:26 -0500 I'll leave the details to someone who knows more, but this much I know: = it does refer to a difference from bass to treble (bass being the bassoon = (I'm not sure of spelling off the top of my head)). Hopefully the transition = is smooth, but I've seen some not-so-smooth ones. Andy (simultaneously attempting to introduce the use of embedded parenthetical phrases to writing) ;) On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:28:01 -0800 (PST), T.Desiree' Hines wrote > Does anyone mind explaining the reed stop, Bassoon/Hautbois? One > assumes that it is a hybrid stop. What is unique about them? One > source discloses that on some instruments, it is one rank that has > one voice at the bass, and another voice at the treble. However, > that may have been discredited. > > Enlighten. > > TDH > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > All your favorites on one personal page =96 Try My Yahoo! A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: Re: nomenclature...a particular stop From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:46:05 -0600 Hello, Desiree: =20 All that you said about the reed stop, Bassoon/Hautbois . . . =20 Then you have to deal with the stops by that or similar=20 names that are imitative of the orchestral instrument; not=20 the typical voicing of the pipes. Each builder that=20 puts these stops into the organ may be reaching for the=20 chorus that was common in the Baroque era when, for instance,=20 the ensemble would be composed of two dozen Oboes and=20 Bassoons. I was told that this was typical orchestration=20 for Handel programs done outdoors. At least it made a=20 loud sound. <grins> =20 Bassoon (the proper name for the orchestral instrument=20 today) may be confused for a general reed stop also spelled=20 that way, but, with Dutch vowel pronunciation, it might=20 be an English long O sound (classic long O in most=20 languages), not the oo sound, as in oops! =20 Bassoons are among the most lovely reeds, and it is very=20 interesting to hear how different voicers make them work. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: Re: an advert of interest From: "Russ Greene" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 13:49:19 -0600 Hi Colin, I truly wish your economic analysis were even close to fact. Unfortunately, your numbers, grains of rice, dollars, pounds or euros, simply don't make sense. As much as I love pipe organs, there is no way to justify them on a dollar to dollar basis. The only way it can be even suggested that pipe organs are less expensive in the long run is to compare a tiny pipe organ to a largish digital; to assume incredibly short life for the digital and incredibly little maintenance, inexpensive and infrequent rebuilds, etc. for the pipe; and to completely ignore the cost of the extra space required by the pipe and the ongoing cost of heating that extra space and so forth. Of course, if you make the pipe tiny enough, it won't require the extra space I suppose. Justify the pipe organ based on quality, on sheer excellence of tone, on the majesty of sound, even on the wonderful look of a pipe facade. But on a straight cost analysis? You'll lose badly every time and not by a little. You'll crash and burn. TTFN, Russ Greene Organist/Choirmaster for 45 years (vocation) Chartered Accountant, served as Chief Financial Officer of several large international companies (day job) On Nov 30, 2004, at 10:44 AM, Colin Mitchell wrote: > suggesting that the organ now jumps into the > lead economically.
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4953 - 12/02/04 From: "Charlie Lester" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:46:51 -0800 =3D-> But more important that that, to me, is that when one begins to use one system of nomenclature-whatever it is-that one sticks with it completely. Calling out a 8' Principal and 4' Prestant in the same organ seems inconsistent to me, but I see it in many organs, eclectic or not! <-=3D A stop name should reflect both the nature and its "cultural heritage." Speaking only of U.S. instruments since that's the scope of my exposure, it's not uncommon to find organs with a mixture of stops from the French, German, British, American, Italian heritage. And what's the big problem with that?! "Vanity stops" notwithstanding (E.g. the "Miriam Flopbottom Lovely Chimes" named after the donor), the name on the knob should correspond to the pipes on the chest. I don't see anything wrong with a multi-lingual stop list as long as it's accurate and honest. In the case of "Prestant," that does seem to be a misunderstood stop to a certain degree. Correctly and historically (going all the way back to Dom B=E9dos), it refers to a 4' Principal (*) some of whose pipes are in the casework fa=E7ade. This goes along with the Montres at various pitches. On a French organ, a Prestant is -not- the same as an Octave; nor a Montre the same as a Diapason or Principal. --- * in the manuals that is - a Pedal Prestant would be at 8 foot. It is sometimes spelled Pr=E9stant but I don't know if that is accurate or just more silly "window dressing." --- It would be absurd to build an organ with French reeds and label them with American nomenclature. An Hautbois is not the same as an Oboe or Fagot; a Trompette is not the same as a Cornopean or Trompeta; a Gambe [in the Cavaill=E9 Coll tradition at least] is not a Gamba. And so on. This is not rocket science. Granted, it does get messy when builders misspell stop names or don't understand the historical meaning of stop names and use them indiscriminately, just to make up a fancy stop list for off-the-shelf organ supply-house goods. But this goes far beyond organs, of course. It's a direct byproduct of Madison Avenue. Take a look at "personal care" products. If you're shopping for "underarm de-armament," which label would be more appealing? "Stink-B-Gon," or "L=E8s A=EEss=EBll=EAs D=E8s Fl=E9=FBrs" ?! [I've seen some hilarious misuses of accented characters on such products - this is not nearly the exaggeration it may seem!] ~ C
(back) Subject: RE: PipeChat Digest #4953 - 12/02/04 From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:34:34 +1300 >A stop name should reflect both the nature and its "cultural=20 heritage." Speaking only of U.S. instruments since that's=20 the scope of my exposure, it's not uncommon to find organs=20 with a mixture of stops from the French, German, British,=20 American, Italian heritage. And what's the big problem with=20 that?! None. It's part of the fun and the spice of organs. >"Vanity stops" notwithstanding (E.g. the "Miriam Flopbottom=20 Lovely Chimes" named after the donor), the name on the knob=20 should correspond to the pipes on the chest. I don't see=20 anything wrong with a multi-lingual stop list as long as=20 it's accurate and honest. Fair enough, again. >* in the manuals that is - a Pedal Prestant would be at 8=20 foot. It is sometimes spelled Pr=E9stant but I don't know if=20 that is accurate or just more silly "window dressing." "Prestant", I suspect, is not more accurate with an accent. >It would be absurd to build an organ with French reeds and=20 label them with American nomenclature. An Hautbois is not=20 the same as an Oboe or Fagot; a Trompette is not the same as=20 a Cornopean or Trompeta; a Gambe [in the Cavaill=E9 Coll=20 tradition at least] is not a Gamba. And so on. Also true. >But this goes far beyond organs, of course. It's a direct=20 byproduct of Madison Avenue. Take a look at "personal care"=20 products. If you're shopping for "underarm de-armament,"=20 which label would be more appealing? "Stink-B-Gon," or "L=E8s=20 A=EEss=EBll=EAs D=E8s Fl=E9=FBrs" ?! [I've seen some hilarious misuses=20 of accented characters on such products - this is not nearly=20 the exaggeration it may seem!] Och, aye.=20 There are cultural differences, most certainly, in stopnames. For many Americans I've corresponded with over the years, Dulciana and Salicional = are synonymous, yet to British or NZ ears (and also Australian, Canadian and South African, I suspect) the Salicional is a string and the Dulciana = most decidedly is not.=20 As I mentioned a couple of days ago, anyone who knows British organs = would never confuse a Geigen Principal with a Violin Diapason, either. Too, = there is a tonal distinction between Clarabella and Claribel, often not = realised in practice albeit. I also believe there is a tonal difference between Piccolo and Flautina, and between SubBass and Bourdon, and between Oboe = and Hautbois, and between Gedackt and Stopped Diapason, and between Cremona = and Clarinet (and even Clarionet) and Krummhorn and Cromorne. Given all that, though, I rather like the jumble of names that we have = on organs. It doesn't really worry me very much. It's important for = organists to go through all the ranks of the organ they play and try all kinds of combinations, regularly, to see what is there and what is useful and = what is not. My organ teacher said that sometimes, given the quirks of the organ = and the site it is installed in, you'll find a combination that works well = for just an octave and is hideous in the rest of the compass. Then, said my teacher, you find a chorale prelude that needs just those good notes, or improvise a solo on just that little bit occasionally.=20 One of the important aspects of this, of course, is the need for = organists now and again to sit in the congregation and listen to the organ solo, accompanying the congregation, and doing all the tasks required of it. = It's all too easy to hear the organ from the console and forget that what is heard "out there in the nave" is often very different indeed. Some combinations are revolting at the console and wonderful down the church, while others are great at the console but no good from down the church. = We must know, if the organ is to be used well. And all of this applies to both pipe and electronic instruments. End of rant. Ross
(back) Subject: pipe organs in chapels of churches From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 16:39:26 EST Other than Peachtree Road United Methodist Church, Atlanta, GA, do any of = you pipechatters know of churches with 4 manual pipe organs in their chapels? Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: an advert of interest From: "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:08:42 -0500 On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 13:49:19 -0600, Russ Greene wrote > Hi Colin, > > Justify the pipe organ based on quality, on sheer excellence of tone, > on the majesty of sound, even on the wonderful look of a pipe > facade. But on a straight cost analysis? You'll lose badly every > time and not by a little. You'll crash and burn. > > TTFN, > Russ Greene I guess I'd have to agree with this, but I still say the difference in = cost is greatly exaggerated. Proponents of electronic organs do the exact reverse of what you say the pipe organ proponents sometimes do... they = tell us the electronic will never need work, and the pipe organ will need releathering every 20 years and it will cost a million dollars. (Now I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean. Things get exaggerated both directions). Pipe organ people tend to compare the cost of a little 2 manual DE pipe organ to the cost of a custom made 5 manual allthebellsandwhistles digital, while electronic people tend to say their basic models are $25,000 and a typical pipe organ costs a million dollars initially, plus thousands every year in maintentance. Both sides are fudging the numbers to benefit themselves. On a loosely related note (nothing to do with Russ's post, but with some others on this thread), why is it that we say a large church "needs 4 manuals" and a small church "needs just 2 manuals". What on earth does = the number of manuals have to do with how well a pipe or electronic organ can fill a church? In my experience filling a room is about scaling, complete = choruses, etc. More manuals is about variety of tone. Sure, the bigger room is likely to need more ranks, perhaps some bigger stops like some manual 16's and more reeds and the like. I think we forget this = sometimes. More manuals (i.e. divisions) is nice for variety if the music program demands it, but not just because a room is big. Andy A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com