PipeChat Digest #4958 - Friday, December 3, 2004 Re: Nomenclature by "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches by <Steskinner@aol.com> Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches by "Keith Zimmerman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches by "Keith Zimmerman" <email@example.com> Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches by "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches by "Travis L. Evans" <email@example.com> Incorrectly named stops by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Theories of relativity by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> stop nomenclature by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Incorrectly named stops by "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) by "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> 4 manual CHAPEL instruments by <RMB10@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Nomenclature From: "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 04:02:24 -0600 Good Morning, Desiree: =20 You asked: =20 > Why have so many organ-builders named stops=20 > inoorrectly? Why put 16 Contre Fagot with=20 > 8 Trompeta if they know it's two different=20 > styles? =20 Maybe this is better understood in the provincial=20 way organ sounds and styles evolved over the past=20 500 years. More than one author of books about=20 organs and organ building has observed that the=20 "way" we build organs is heavily guided by the=20 tradition in which we grew up. We are creatures=20 of habit. Good habits are better applied to the=20 creation of the next organ in our shop. Bad=20 habits show up with poor sounds. =20 If I speak French, and you speak Italian, there=20 is opportunity for both the tradition of your=20 homeland to differ somewhat from what I experienced=20 growing up in my homeland. The architecture of=20 your buildings may be different from our buildings. =20 The style of music in your youth may be different=20 than it was in mine. =20 These differences continue with us today (2004). =20 When a Cajun from south Louisiana cooks red beans=20 and rice, he makes sure it is properly mixed in=20 a gravy. Umm! Good. When a Mexican cooks his=20 red beans, they are different from that which the=20 Cajun fixed, and the rice is dry and spiced=20 differently; not mixed together, and we haven't=20 begun to talk about the myriad of other differences=20 in taste palletes between only these two traditions. =20 Change my preference in red beans and rice? No way! <grins> =20 If you don't mind browsing through Audsley's "The=20 Art of Organbuilding," you will find that the=20 differences in naming stops was a problem on the=20 front burner back in 1906 (98 years ago), and hasn't=20 seemed to improve with increased media to share=20 our ideas and calculations. =20 I find it very helpful to listen to a new organ,=20 one that I have not experienced before, by hearing=20 how each stop was prepared, how they blend in=20 ensembles, how they interact with the acoustical=20 environment, how convenient or inconvenient the=20 console controls the organ, and, then, begin to=20 formulate my understanding of how the organbuilder=20 brought the sounds together. =20 In my opinion, the sound is everything. =20 I find great pleasure in listening to how well=20 the compositions of past masters sound as they=20 are played by different organists with different=20 interpretations (originality in some pieces) on=20 different organs. A Mendelssohn sonota played=20 on the West Point Chapel organ is a different=20 sounding experience from that same score played=20 on a II/20 organ in a chapel that seats only=20 about 150 people. Yet, the same notes were=20 played on both organs. =20 As you expand your horizons, you will collate=20 your experiences, too. Stay alert. Listen=20 with perception. Judge not quickly. The organ=20 is a mystereiously wonderful land of enchantment,=20 always changing with the seasons and each piece=20 of music rendered is a uniquely fresh expression. =20 =20 Keep learning. This may be a problem that was=20 never intended to be standardized. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 06:52:34 EST Of note in this thread is the Grace Brethren Church of Long Beach, CA. = 3/31 1967 Moller in the auditorium, and a 2/5 1967 Moller in the Chapel. It is = the only Grace Brethren church I've heard of with a pipe organ, let alone 2! One of the finest sounding chapel organs is a 2/~12? Ken Simpson in the chapel at First Baptist, LA The church I serve now has a 2/7 Skinner (as in Steve Skinner/OSI), = picture featured on the OSI website. Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA
(back) Subject: Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches From: "Keith Zimmerman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 07:43:26 -0500 Peachtree Road UMC in Atlanta has 3 pipe organs. I can't remember whether or not I read this from the church's website or from the Mander's link. Apparently, their previous 3 manual pipe organ was placed into the chapel when they installed their large 4m Mander tracker. The choir room also has a small pipe organ. Perhaps that one was = originally in the chapel!! What a life!! Keith
(back) Subject: Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches From: "Keith Zimmerman" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 07:46:15 -0500 O well. Steven beat me to the punch line with his posting on Peachtree = Rd. UMC. I guess one should read all the postings before opening one's mouth. I stand corrected in that the previous organ was a 4 manual. I remember = it being a large one from the original posting. I also remember thinking = about the family that had donated most of the cost of the previous organ - how they felt about getting this new one (hardly a generation later, I think) and about having theirs relegated to the chapel. Good day, Keith
(back) Subject: Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches From: "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 07:38:43 -0600 Salem Lutheran Church in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, has a three manual organ = in its chapel too. The chapel has a three-manual 1888 Miller of Lebanon tracker, and the church has a three manual 1925 Skinner. The Miller organ is featured on one of Bruce Stevens' Rheinberger recordings on the Raven label. John Speller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Zimmerman" <email@example.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 6:43 AM Subject: Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches > Peachtree Road UMC in Atlanta has 3 pipe organs. I can't remember = whether > or not I read this from the church's website or from the Mander's link. > Apparently, their previous 3 manual pipe organ was placed into the = chapel > when they installed their large 4m Mander tracker.
(back) Subject: Re: pipe organs in chapels of churches From: "Travis L. Evans" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 07:57:02 -0600 Peachtree has 3 organs, as previously stated the Mander (IV/92) the = Shantz (IV/71) and the Moller (2/4). During my visit, I only had time to play = the Mander. Travis
(back) Subject: Incorrectly named stops From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:04:56 EST A. The church organist wanted a particular stop list, and the church = trustees were committed to a smaller budget, so the builder did what was necessary = to get the contract signed? B. The builder had certain ranks already in his inventory, and the church = wanted the organ installed yesterday? C. As every politician knows, "shading" the facts is an established policy = in business. Caveat emptor! ? Stan Krider In a message dated 12/03/2004 5:02:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, T.Desiree' = Hines asks: Why have so many organ-builders named stops incorrectly? Why put 16 Contre Fagot with 8 Trompeta if they know it's two different styles?
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:27:39 EST Any organization or individual serious about investing in a pipe organ = gets proposals from four to six organbuilders, narrows it down to two or three, = and makes a decision. All bids come with prices. There is really no guarantee that everybody on a chat list has = commissioned an organ in the last 24 months, so organbuilding clients do not ask a = group of strangers to speculate what the price might be. Remember, too, that = quoting a price on a decade-old imported organ is not an accurate barometer, either, = not just because of time passed, but also because of the complete destruction = of the American dollar in the past few years. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City ..
(back) Subject: Re: Theories of relativity From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 09:42:20 -0500 At 06:59 PM 2004-12-02 -0600, you wrote: >At 6:19 PM -0500 12/2/04, Arie Vandenberg wrote: >> >>Trackers cost on average $25,000 per stop so a 20 stop instrument would = >>cost $500,000 >>Electro-pneumatic pipe organ - average $20,000 per stop - so the >>instrument would cost $400,000 >>Electronic organ average $1,000 per stop plus console - so figure in the = >>neighbourhood of $50,000 >> >>These are fairly reliable figures. I have heard of tracker builders = that >>charge well over $30,000 per stop. Also in general expensive small >>specification electronic organs are rare, so this would be a custom high = >>end price. > >Arie > >I wish people won't quote all sorts of outlandish figures for pipe = organs, >it is just another "tool" that eorg sales people use for "scare tactics" >to push their product. > >Yes, maybe a specific organ cost $500,000 and has 20 stops but what else >does it have? What kind of fancy facade and/or case does it have? How >many full length 16' stops does it have and if they are in the facade are = >they Tin? All of these factors will raise the cost of an organ. It = could >be that the same size instrument in a plain case and maybe with polished >zinc facade pipes will cost less. > >The same with an EP organ, one specific organ might have worked out to >$20,000 a rank based on the price that someone told someone else that >their organ cost. But again, that same instrument could maybe also come >in at $15,000 a rank because of a difference set of parameters regarding >the installation. > >And also maybe the "total" price that someone quotes also includes = various >renovation work done by the specific church to house the new organ. And >let's face it, there are people out there that exaggerate the amount that = >their church paid for the new instrument. > >I don't think anyone can quote an "average" price per rank for any organ >builder in this country. There are way too many variables between >builders and between various organs by the same builder. It could be and = >can be that a builder using all new materials might have to charge >something that works out to XX dollars per rank and the same builder >reusing "experienced" materials from a previous organ charges YY dollars >per rank for that organ. And there is probably a wide gulf between XX = and YY. > >Let's avoid these blanket statements as it does a disservice to many pipe = >organ builders. > >David David, I suppose my great sin here was that I was trying to give away "TOP = SECRET" information to the world. That is right, the purchaser of a pipe organ must be sworn to secrecy, as to how much was paid for the organ. = Potential organ buyers must not know in advance how much a new good pipe organ costs. Maybe the old idiom "if you have to ask for the price, you can't afford it" is valid here. The figures I quoted are for quotations from pipe organ builders that I have actually looked at. These builders are known in the industry, as quality builders, and the installs were fairly straight forward. Maybe, you or some other builders could actually state what you got for some of your latest contracts for "all new organs". Or you can at least tell me if my average for a good 20 stop organ is high or low. Obviously I must have hit the "high sensitivity" piston. Arie V. P.S. I am fully aware that it is hard to give absolute prices on an installed pipe organ, as there may be long distances involved, historical research, construction on site, special features etc. But surely AIO or APOBA has statistics on these things.
(back) Subject: stop nomenclature From: "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 07:32:24 -0800 I have a somewhat different take on it. Organs in other countries have their stop-names in the language of that country, for the most part. Within that, one may have baroque, romantic, etc. SOUNDS. If one is mixing British, French, German, and Italian SOUNDS in an American organ, one probably should NOT be (grin). I think it would be far better to do as the 19th century American builders did (or Bach, for that matter), and spell out the details and sounds in some detail in the contract itself, rather than by the use of a polylingual stop-list, thus: GREAT ORGAN - unenclosed, sixty-one keys, from CC to c in alt 16' Bourdon - stopped metal 1-12, metal chimney flute 13-49, open metal 50-61 - mezzo-forte, quick in speech, for continuo-playing 8' Open Diapason - in the facade; basses of good, thick, rolled zinc; noble in intonation, generous in scale, like Mr. Hook's Open Diapason in St. Fritheswithe's-By-The-Freeway 8' Doppel Flute - open wood, of generous scale 8' Gamba - of spotted metal, medium-scale, like Mr. Johnson's Gamba in St. Gertrude's-by-the-Gas-Station 8' Dulciana - of good English tin, soft and delicate and so forth. Reeds might be specified 8' Trumpet - French shallots, like Mr. Roosevelt's in the Presbyterian church 16' Trombone - full-length wooden resonators, like Mr. Johnson's in the Unitarian meeting-house Now, granted, it is a subjective thing to judge whether or not the builder fulfills the description, once the organ is built, but it's at least a starting point. If I read "Trumpet - French shallots," then I know MORE-OR-LESS what to expect, having heard Mr. Roosevelt's in the Presbyterian church. Contrariwise, calling a stop "Trompette Harmonique" doesn't necessarily mean it will be a French trumpet, or even have harmonic-length resonator. It SHOULD, but SOME builders will simply put it on the knob because it looks good. Here's a thing: most organists know very little about pipe organ building. Some pride themselves on their lack of knowledge ... "I don't care as long as it PLAYS." Such organists should NEVER be turned loose to negotiate a contract without a reputable consultant to ride herd on them, or a VERY reputable builder to shepherd them through the process. Otherwise, one is likely to end up with a minestrone of said organist's favorite stops, without any reference to the literature OR the function of the organ in the liturgy. Granted, there are not many academic courses in organ-building for organists. It just happened I was at Oberlin during the period of great expansion in the organ department, and helped unpack the first wave of Flentrops. Thereafter I attached myself to John Leek at the HIP whenever I wasn't in class, watching, playing gofer, unwrapping pipes, asking questions, and generally making a pest of myself. To his everlasting credit, John put up with me ... he seemed genuinely pleased that someone wanted to know what made them tick. I spent one summer in the Swell chamber of the Jewish Temple in Dallas, watching Marvin Judy clean and re-curve the reeds, picking his brain and yacking away a mile a minute about all things organistic. An instructor's attempt to explain the composition of mixtures in organ class in Cincinnati would have been funny, if it hadn't been so ... what? ... tragic? (chuckle) The vast majority were at sea without a rudder from the moment their eyes glazed over at the word "Blokwerk" and STAYED that way. No, I'm not saying that organists should specify the composition and breaks of the mixtures; that is for the master organ-builder. But the organist should AT LEAST know WHAT mixtures are, what they're supposed to DO, and WHY they're made the way they are. I did have a lively discussion with one builder about the Swell mixture in one organ I was consultant for ... we had two different ideas as to what it was to DO .... once THAT was settled, we were in agreement, and he designed a mixture to DO it. I keep coming back to SIZE ... time and again, I have looked at stop-lists of British organs after listening to them, and said, "he got THAT sound out of THAT stop-list? AMAZING!" And I'm sure John Speller will tell you that there are just as many British churches with dry acoustics as there are American. An organ doesn't have to be BIG, it just has to have the RIGHT stops, VOICED, SCALED, and WINDED correctly. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:26:11 -0600 No, I think it is more complicated than that. Partly it is a matter of = fashion whether you call the 8' an Open Diapason, Principal, Prinzipal, = Montre, etc. In the 1960's when neobaroque organs were fashionable, it = was pretty much standard to call the 8 ft. stop a Principal, or (if you = were an EXTREME neobaroque enthusiast) Prinzipal. Today, with a = romantic revival underway, the pendulum has swung more back in favor of = Open Diapason, although some denominations, such as Lutherans with their = German heritage, who still tend to prefer the Principal designation. = This was even true in the nineteenth century, when certain Hook & = Hastings organs, for example, that were intended for some Lutheran = churches, etc., would call the 8 ft. stop Principal. =20 At another level, however, a traditional German Principal, a traditional = English Open Diapason and a traditional French Montre do actually sound = different. The Open Diapason tends to be broader and richer, the Montre = more massive, than the Principal. It is possible that you might want = stops of these different intonations on an instrument. In some cases = this is because of a desire to have an eclectic instrument capable of = the authentic performance of different styles of organ music. I am not = sure that anyone would do this today, but back in 1967 the Hill, Norman = & Beard organ in the Royal College of Organists in London has Great and = Positive divisions that were in the North German style and a Swell that = was in the French style. The scaling, voicing and naming of the stops = reflected this. Even today a builder might use a French style Trumpet = with parallel shallots on the Swell (for a more harmonically developed = sound suitable for enclosure in the swellbox) and a richer English style = Trumpet with tapered shallots on the Great Organ. These could quite = properly be referred to as Trompette and Trumpet. It's also bit like college degrees. Some colleges (like Harvard) like = to name all their degrees in Latin such as A.B., A.M., Ph.D., M.D. = Others (like Oxford) like to name everything in English, such as B.A., = M.A., D.Phil., D.M. Most colleges mix and match with B.A., M.A., Ph.D., = M.D., etc. Similarly some builders like to name everything in English, = even down to Spindle Flute for Spillfl=F6te and Night Horn for = Nachthorn, while others like to name them in German or French, or a = mixture of all three. Sometimes even the same stop is named in more = than one language. German would be Lieblich Bordun, but how often do we = see Lieblich Bourdon, a mixture of German and French? Sometimes we see = Rohrfl=F6te and sometimes Rohr Flute. A lot of old Mollers have Vox = Celeste, which is a mixture of the French Voix C=E9leste and the Latin = Vox Colestis. I have even seen a stop called Fl=F6te =E0 Bec, although = I must say this was on an instrument where the builder clearly did not = know what he was doing! Good builders could sometimes do this sort of = thing too. The great eighteenth-century organbuilder David Tannenberg = persistently misnamed the 2 ft. Super Octave as "Suboctav". Henry = Willis persistently spelt Salicional "Salcional."=20 Even in the same language we see variants due to local dialects. Is it = Gedeckt or Gedackt? Principal or Prinzipal? Octave or Octav or Oktave = or Oktav? It depended which part of Germany you were from. Sometimes = the language changes. The strong aorist Stopt Diapason is grammatically = correct, but the weak aorist Stopped Diapason has now almost universally = replaced it. Oboe is German, but the correct English term Hautboy has = almost completely disappeared, both so far as the orchestral instrument = and the organ stop are concerned. So I think it is chacun =E0 son gout, and I don't think it generally has = a lot to do with whether the organ builder is a good one or a bad one. John Speller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wuxuzusu@aol.com=20 To: firstname.lastname@example.org=20 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:04 AM Subject: Incorrectly named stops A. The church organist wanted a particular stop list, and the church = trustees were committed to a smaller budget, so the builder did what was = necessary to get the contract signed? B. The builder had certain ranks already in his inventory, and the = church wanted the organ installed yesterday? C. As every politician knows, "shading" the facts is an established = policy in business. Caveat emptor! ? Stan Krider In a message dated 12/03/2004 5:02:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, = T.Desiree' Hines asks: Why have so many organ-builders named stops incorrectly? =20 Why put 16 Contre Fagot with 8 Trompeta if they know it's two = different styles?
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:31:07 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) Remember, too, that quoting a > price on a decade-old imported organ is not an accurate barometer, = either, not > just because of time passed, but also because of the complete = destruction of > the American dollar in the past few years. As a matter of interest, where is everyone on this issue? Some organbuilders import a lot of stuff from Europe, others hardly anything. How is this affecting people as a whole? British, German and Italian organbuilders who export of instruments to North America must presumably = be suffering too. Does anyone have a handle on this? John Speller
(back) Subject: 4 manual CHAPEL instruments From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:33:11 EST There may be confusion here...my question is, other than the 4 manual = Schantz organ in the Chapel of Peachtree Road United Methodist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, and the Aeolian organ in Pasadena Presbyterian, Pasadean, CA, = what other churches have 4 manual pipe organs in their chapels. By Chapel, I mean = the smaller worship space, separate from the main worship area. Chapel may be = a word used here in the United States to denote the smaller worship space, = as opposed to the the main Sanctuary. I know lots of churches have 4 manual instruments, at least here in the US. I play one every week...I am not = interested in those, they are a dime a dozen. Specifically, I am interested in finding churches who have 4 manual instruments in their secondary worship areas. I've gotten lots of emails telling me about 4 manual organs, and while I appreciate those, it's just not the information I'm looking for. Thanks! Monty Bennett