PipeChat Digest #4959 - Friday, December 3, 2004
 
RE: Incorrectly named stops
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Re: 4 manual CHAPEL instruments
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity)
  by "Phillip Schlueter" <pschlueter@adelphia.net>
Re: Pipe Organ Pricing
  by "Roy Kersey" <rkersey@tds.net>
Re: stop nomenclature
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Theories of relativity
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
Re: stop nomenclature
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Incorrectly named stops
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Pipe Organ Pricing
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity)
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: How does one inspire lust?
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Incorrectly named stops
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
RE: Incorrectly named stops
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Incorrectly named stops
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: stop nomenclature
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
RE: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity)
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
RE: Incorrectly named stops
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Incorrectly named stops From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:39:37 -0600   Oboe is German, but the correct English term Hautboy has almost completely disappeared, both so far as the orchestral instrument and the organ stop are concerned.   =20   John Speller   =20   =20   The following website suggests that "Hoboe" is German, and "Oboe" is Italian.   =20   "Encyclopedia of Organ Stops"   http://www.organstops.org/o/Oboe.html   =20   Hautbois French Hautboy English Oboe Italian   Hoboe German   =20   =20   Daniel Hancock   Springfield, Missouri  
(back) Subject: Re: 4 manual CHAPEL instruments From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:45:38 -0500   This should also qualify:   Frederick Hohman gave a full-length recital program at the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, California. The recital began on the pipe organ located in the Arboretum, which is the site of the first indoor worship sanctuary at the Crystal. Cathedral campus. The organ was acquired following the Northridge earthquake in southern California. It is an 80-plus rank 4-manual 1951 G. Donald Harrison Aeolian-Skinner organ, and it is remarkably preserved intact and in its original condition. The organ had been housed in a Christian Science church facility, and the Northridge quake destroyed this facility, although the organ was left intact! It was moved to the Arboretum in recent years and is a fine recital instrument. The first half of the program was presented in the Arboretum, and during intermission, the recital venue shifted to the nearby main sanctuary of the Crystal Cathedral.   -- noel jones, aago noeljones@frogmusic.com ----------------------------------- 1 877 249-5251 Athens, TN USA   www.frogmusic.com Rodgers Organ Users Group Frog Music Press - Organ and MIDI Music FMP Organ Music Search Service Rodgers Organ Design & Voicing Services    
(back) Subject: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) From: "Phillip Schlueter" <pschlueter@adelphia.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:34:33 -0500   Hello Folks,   Roy Kersey wrote: "I would ask whether any of you would be willing to contribute to the list your knowledge of total cost and per rank cost of REAL INSTRUMENTS that = have been installed in the fairly recent past, say the last ten years."   I have to go beyond 10 years, but this organ was dedicated in 1987. It is the organ at Trinity Cathedral, Portland, Oregon and is approx. 87 ranks = on 54 stops, some report this organ as 52 stops. Since I was one of the builders/installers it's 54 as I count them. The organ has a 16' tin = facade and no 1/2 length reeds. The spec. includes a 32' Bourdon playing at 16' and 8', 32' reed playing also at 16' and Open Wood at 16' and 8'. There = are principal choruses in each of the 4 divisions including 16' manual stops = in all and 2 mounted cornets. Celeste goes down to CC and reeds total 14 and mixtures of 30 ranks. I do hope I'm not revealing secrets here, but this figure was published at the annual meeting of the Cathedral. The total = cost of the organ was $860,000.00 and that works out to be $15,925.00 per stop. Other particulars are: 1. Pedal 16' Bombarde plays on the Great Organ = for 24 notes (electric on the slider chest) and is independent from 25 up on Great chest. 2. The Pedal 16' Bourdon shares it's low 12 notes so the Positiv can play them on an inflate to play action and then is independent from 13 up. 3. Pedal 16' Principal plays on the Great organ for 32 notes then is independent from 33 up. 4. There is no CC# 8' Principal in the Positiv as it takes that note from the facade (inflate to play action). = 5. Suspended tracker action with 61 note manuals and 32 note pedal. 6. Tennessee white oak case with assorted other hardwood decoration; the = facade has gold leaf upper and lower lips and some calligraphy at impost level.   I think some/many of you all know this organ and I do know that even today there are some organs costing less and more than this one did in 1987. It is so very hard to generalize as others have pointed out.   Phil Schlueter from the beautiful Miami of the North Buffalo, New York.    
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ Pricing From: "Roy Kersey" <rkersey@tds.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:07:02 +0000   Hello Sebastian and List, I thought Sebastian's point about inflation, 1994 to 2004, and = inflation for that period of the dollar relative to the pound was = relevant, so I looked up the inflation rate and the change in exchange = rate and did a calculation. There was a 27% inflation rate for the period = in England, and the dollar went from about $1.48 per pound to $1.79. = Figuring all this up gives about 53% inflation of price, total. That = would change my $1,444 per rank to $2209, but this is STILL not $3000 per = stop, and I knew it couldn't be when I wrote the original post. Inflation, = in the modern period, just does not double prices in ten years in most = places. Do also remember that this is one of the premier instruments in = the world and that the cost was probably greater because of the = importation than it would have been using an American builder. For one = thing, there was a fairly large crew that had to be put up in NYC, I would = guess. That was certainly the case for the Peachtree Mander. As Joe Friday said, "the facts Ma'am, just the facts." There they = are as far as I know them. Before somebody shoots me over it, yes, I know = the Mander was installed in 1993, but I used the wrong date before I = checked. Actually the dollar was higher against the pound in late 1993 = than in 1994 . . . but the basic calculation will be about the same. Best Regards, Roy Kersey Organ Enthusiast & Amateur Trumpeter      
(back) Subject: Re: stop nomenclature From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:11:36 EST   Bud said: >If one is mixing British, French, German, and Italian SOUNDS in an >American organ, one probably should NOT be (grin).   Welcome to the American Classic organ...we take the best of everybody's = style and make it work. Sure, you don't always get a "pure" organ, but look at what we got with Harrison's Aeolian-Skinners. They were melting pots, but = they sure are exciting. You can't play anything authentically, but you can = sure make music! (BIG Grin!) The United States is a melting pot of cultures, = so will this instrument be also.   >I think it would be far better to do as the 19th century American >builders did (or Bach, for that matter), and spell out the details and >sounds in some detail in the contract itself, rather than by the use of >a polylingual stop-list, thus: <snip>   Actually, Bud makes a great point here. This is exactly what I did when I =   worked out the stoplist. I made notes about what I wanted tonally of each = stop and about construction. As we worked out the contract details, we further finalized details about each rank, too. We have talked about percentages of tin for the flue ranks, types of = shallots for the reeds, and even my wishes for the 16' Pedal Trombone having wooden =   resonators vs. the 16' Pedal Buccina being metal. Things like that were = all spelled out on paper, and have been discussed further as the drawings go = to paper and from paper to the pipe shop. All of this just goes to make sure that = the best possible results will occur.   > No, I'm not saying that organists should specify the composition and >breaks of the mixtures; that is for the master organ-builder. But the >organist should AT LEAST know WHAT mixtures are, what they're supposed >to DO, and WHY they're made the way they are. I did have a lively >discussion with one builder about the Swell mixture in one organ I was >consultant for ... we had two different ideas as to what it was to DO >... once THAT was settled, we were in agreement, and he designed a >mixture to DO it.   Sometimes I wonder if the builders know how to make mixtures to work properly. I'm playing an organ next week in a program that the mixtures = are unusable because they don't blend with the foundations at all. The Great Mixture screams over the top of everything and the Swell Plein Jeu, while not high = pitched or loud, just doesn't fit...it's not really bright, it's almost hooty in nature. It's the most bizarre sound I've ever heard. This is from a = major builder, and the organ is only about 10 years old. Another instrument I = play fairly frequently has mixtures that are voiced so loud that they obliterate the = rest of the ensemble, and the quints in them take prominence. I want to be = able to use the mixtures, not just have them there to look pretty on a stop = knob and add to the rank count, but never use them except on Easter or some big festival service when the church is packed.   >An organ doesn't have to be BIG, it just has to have the RIGHT stops, >VOICED, SCALED, and WINDED correctly. Well, I will argue on the size of the instrument, ONLY because I like flexibility and variety, BUT, it's true...when voiced and scaled properly, = amazing things can happen. It's just that many people skimp in the scaling and = voicing. IF you have anemic scales and wimpy voicing, there's no way an organ can have any power regardless lf the size. Some of the biggest Full Swell = effects I've heard in England have come from divisions with only 8 or 9 stops, but = they were some hefty scales and voiced with authority! (But that doesn't mean = I'm cutting back on my specification at all!!!!!)   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Theories of relativity From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:16:14 -0500   Here in Ontario I know for a fact that it was possible 10 years ago to get = a good well made pipe organ of 2m 10-12 ranks from a Ontario based = competitor with all new pipework for well under $70,000. Cdn.   Sadly the company has gone in a different direction from pipe organ = building since the senior partner passed away from Alzheimer's.     I've rebuilt and installed many organs of 10-35 ranks for about the price = of "A couple of Stops"   Arie's prices are however quite right in some cases. My fellow Ontario organbuilders often joke privately about "One service company's" = outrageous pricing.   Needless to say they get little work which leaves the rest of us smiling. = Of course at those prices you don't need much work!   Nelson.      
(back) Subject: Re: stop nomenclature From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 08:42:49 -0800           > Bud said: > >>If one is mixing British, French, German, and Italian SOUNDS in an >>American organ, one probably should NOT be (grin). > > RMB10@aol.com wrote:   > Welcome to the American Classic organ...we take the best of everybody's = style > and make it work. Sure, you don't always get a "pure" organ, but look = at > what we got with Harrison's Aeolian-Skinners. They were melting pots, = but they > sure are exciting. You can't play anything authentically, but you can = sure > make music! (BIG Grin!) The United States is a melting pot of cultures, = so will > this instrument be also. > >   And therein lies the problem. At the risk of skewering a sacred cow, GDH's organs are fun to play, but they're not REALLY suited to the authentic performance of anything, except for accompanying the Anglican choral service, and hymns in The Grand Manner. With their reedless Greats and 8' principal-less Positivs, they CERTAINLY aren't suitable for French Romantic music, never mind the lack of CHORUS reeds on the Positivs.   When all the flap was going on about St. Mark's in Philly, I thought to myself, "exactly WHAT organ literature calls for EVERY reed in the organ (save one, a 16' Krumhorn) to be a variety of chorus trumpet?" I didn't agree with their ultimate SOLUTION, but I saw their POINT.   One would HOPE that the days of the French Swell, British-American Great, and German Positive (in the same organ) have passed away, or soon will.   There have been a FEW new organs built in America that were informed by the practices and voicing styles of the giants of 19th century American organ-building ... Hook, Johnson, etc. (and no, I'm NOT ignoring everybody else ... read Ochse for the complete list) ... without being slavish historical copies, but not nearly ENOUGH. I still assert that THOSE styles have more integrity (and can play more literature) than the typical modern American Classic mish-mash. Listen to Franck at The Immaculate Conception, for instance.   Donning fireproof pajamas (grin) ...   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:54:47 -0600   Hi, John: =20 You wrote: =20 > I have even seen a stop called Fl=F6te =E0 Bec,=20 > although I must say this was on an instrument=20 > where the builder clearly did not know what=20 > he was doing! =20 Since the Swell Division of the organ in my church=20 (for which I take TLC) has a Fl=F6te Fl=F6te =E0 Bec 2,=20 now I am paranoid. Are you talking about the organ=20 in my chruch? <grins> Probably not, but it give=20 cause to wonder. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ Pricing From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:54:21 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Kersey" <rkersey@tds.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Pipe Organ Pricing     > Hello Sebastian and List, > I thought Sebastian's point about inflation, 1994 to 2004, and inflation for that period of the dollar relative to the pound was = relevant, so I looked up the inflation rate and the change in exchange rate and did = a calculation. There was a 27% inflation rate for the period in England, and the dollar went from about $1.48 per pound to $1.79.   It may go a lot further. When I was born in the late 1940's there were = four dollars to the pound, and perhaps we are heading back in that direction, with the euro doing much the same thing as the pound.   American organbuilders will probably have to accommodate to this in a = number of areas.   (1) Some organbuilders import quite a bit of pipework from Europe and they may have to stop doing so. This is likely to be more of a problem for = reed pipes than for flue pipes, since it is becoming increasingly difficult to find good reeds anywhere. This will not affect firms like Schantz, Quimby and Wicks, who make their own reeds. Otherwise organbuilders are really going to be hard pressed to find good reeds at affordable prices. Flue pipes are less of a problem since several American supply houses make good ones.   (2) Organ blowers quite often get imported from Laukhuff, since they are particularly silent and thus useful where the blower is close by, rather than in a remote blower room. Organbuilders will probably have to find = ways of using American blowers instead.   (3) Slider motors for mechanical, electric or electro-pneumatic slider chests are going to be particularly problematical, since there will no longer be any good ones available at affordable prices. Some builders may decide to develop electro-pneumatic systems, while for tracker builders mechanical stop action may experience a sudden renaissance. Some = electric pulldowns for slider chests are also imported from Europe, and some of the builders who use them may opt for switching to electro-pneumatic systems too.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:59:30 -0600   Hello, John: > As a matter of interest, where is everyone on this issue? > Some organbuilders import a lot of stuff from Europe, > others hardly anything. How is this affecting people as > a whole? British, German and Italian organbuilders who > export of instruments to North America must presumably > be suffering too. Does anyone have a handle on this? My import surcharge went up to 10 percent last summer. I received an increase to 15 percent last week. This is supposedly based on the change in value of the USDollar in relation to the Euro. That is only two points on a curve; don't project yet. F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Re: How does one inspire lust? From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:00:00 EST   Now there's a concept!! I lust in my heart for a real pipe organ in my home or church. At least it shouldn't cause as much angst and trouble as some "other" lusts. Ah to lust. Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:01:29 -0600   No, am talking about an organ in Pennsylvania. It is interesting to = know that there could be more than one stop named this, I had never = imagined there was. The correct French term is Fl=FBte =E0 Bec and the = correct German is Spitzfl=F6te. The English would be Spire Flute.   John Speller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: F. Richard Burt=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops     Hi, John: =20 You wrote: =20 > I have even seen a stop called Fl=F6te =E0 Bec,=20 > although I must say this was on an instrument=20 > where the builder clearly did not know what=20 > he was doing! =20 Since the Swell Division of the organ in my church=20 (for which I take TLC) has a Fl=F6te Fl=F6te =E0 Bec 2,=20 now I am paranoid. Are you talking about the organ=20 in my chruch? <grins>
(back) Subject: RE: Incorrectly named stops From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:27:43 -0800 (PST)   I THINK I may have seen Hobo on a Dutch spec. Has anyone else seen Hobo? Thats very true that Hautboy is seldom seen put on any instruments today. Was'nt it mostly used in 19th and Early 20th Century American builders, as = well as in England?   TDH   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 11:27:47 -0600   John: =20 Fl=FBte =E0 Bec -- Interesting. This is not a tapered=20 pipe at all. It is a cylindrical pipe. All of its=20 character is set at the mouth, and it is somewhere=20 near the line between being a Prinicpal sound at=20 2-foot picth and a bright flute. There is no edge=20 tone as often associated with tapered pipes. =20 For this particular Swell division, the pipe fits=20 nicely in the upper end of the flue ensemble. Is=20 it safe to say this 2-foot flute has little=20 character? It needs to fill a place in the ensemble,=20 and it does. As such, it does not stand out from=20 the rest. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: Re: stop nomenclature From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:38:06 EST   Dear Monty: I like your style. When chosing a stop I like to think it will be of use not just frosting on the cake. It seems that the organs being built today musically express what is needed and how it will work. I suppose we needed to go through the wastefulness of the 50's through the 80's to realize the what we thought was Baroque was simply an aberration and in some ways an abomination. Organ builders today are building beautiful period instruments that work. I happen to lean toward a = romantic style more toward the esthetics of the Cavaille Coll concepts and how = they filled large reverberant spaces. The flues were to die for and most of = the power and majesty provided by the reeds. Mixtures that provided the foundations with support, shine and clarity, not brute force. Choruses of beautiful open flutes, strings of great beauty and blend, cornets in = the right place, plenty of gravis in the pedal supplied by well scaled open = and stopped flues in the 16' range. It's nice to see the fads go and good = solid musical instruments finally being built today of all types. Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: RE: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:25:26 -0600   I believe the Trinity organ also contains quite a bit of pipework from the Moller it replaced. This from both a local (Illinois) builder and one of the current service people. As it was also probably intended to be a show piece instrument for the builder, the price was probably even more attractive. A comparable instrument with all new material and the builder hoping for a modest profit would probably have cost a lot more.   Michael     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Phillip Schlueter Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:35 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity)   <snip>   I have to go beyond 10 years, but this organ was dedicated in 1987. It is the organ at Trinity Cathedral, Portland, Oregon and is approx. 87 ranks = on 54 stops, some report this organ as 52 stops. Since I was one of the builders/installers it's 54 as I count them. The organ has a 16' tin = facade and no 1/2 length reeds. The spec. includes a 32' Bourdon playing at 16' and 8', 32' reed playing also at 16' and Open Wood at 16' and 8'. There = are principal choruses in each of the 4 divisions including 16' manual stops = in all and 2 mounted cornets. Celeste goes down to CC and reeds total 14 and mixtures of 30 ranks. I do hope I'm not revealing secrets here, but this figure was published at the annual meeting of the Cathedral. The total = cost of the organ was $860,000.00 and that works out to be $15,925.00 per stop. Other particulars are: 1. Pedal 16' Bombarde plays on the Great Organ = for 24 notes (electric on the slider chest) and is independent from 25 up on Great chest. 2. The Pedal 16' Bourdon shares it's low 12 notes so the Positiv can play them on an inflate to play action and then is independent from 13 up. 3. Pedal 16' Principal plays on the Great organ for 32 notes then is independent from 33 up. 4. There is no CC# 8' Principal in the Positiv as it takes that note from the facade (inflate to play action). = 5. Suspended tracker action with 61 note manuals and 32 note pedal. 6. Tennessee white oak case with assorted other hardwood decoration; the = facade has gold leaf upper and lower lips and some calligraphy at impost level.   <snip>    
(back) Subject: RE: Incorrectly named stops From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 08:01:00 +1300   >The correct French term is=A0Fl=FBte =E0 Bec and the correct=A0German = is Spitzfl=F6te.=A0 The English would be Spire Flute. =A0 Not certain, but I feel pretty sure that a Flute a Bec (sorry about the = lack of accents) is a Recorder, i.e. a fipple flute, in real life. So, = probably cylindrical rather than tapered, and probably not harmonic.   Ross