PipeChat Digest #4960 - Friday, December 3, 2004 Re: Incorrectly named stops by "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) by <RonSeverin@aol.com> Splitting hairs by "Charlie Lester" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sebastian being tempted? by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Re:stop nomenclature by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: Incorrectly named stops by <RMB10@aol.com> A High Five from O & O O by "John Foss" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Re:stop nomenclature by "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> tonal design by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Timothy Tikker Improvises Organ Soundtrack on DVD "King of Kings" by "William T. Van Pelt" <email@example.com> purity by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 13:18:39 -0600 I think Ross is right that the real equivalent of the Fl=FBte =E0 Bec is = the Recorder or Blockfl=F6te. In Germany the Blockfl=F6te can either be = tapered or cylindrical. John Speller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: F. Richard Burt=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops John: =20 Fl=FBte =E0 Bec -- Interesting. This is not a tapered=20 pipe at all. It is a cylindrical pipe. All of its=20 character is set at the mouth, and it is somewhere=20 near the line between being a Prinicpal sound at=20 2-foot picth and a bright flute. There is no edge=20 tone as often associated with tapered pipes. =20 For this particular Swell division, the pipe fits=20 nicely in the upper end of the flue ensemble. Is=20 it safe to say this 2-foot flute has little=20 character? It needs to fill a place in the ensemble,=20 and it does. As such, it does not stand out from=20 the rest. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 .
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:44:00 EST Dear Roy: People tend to want to know how much money to raise when considering purchasing a pipe organ whether new, or used. Usually committies are populated with those who know little of the pipe organ business and the = costs of doing business. What drives up the cost per stop are the large 16' = stops, and reeds. The chest styles also figure into the mix. The bottom line of cost per stop can really only be determined when the organ has been tested after being built and the cost of transportation, installation, adjusting and voicing. There are variables here too. The ultimate determination is when the final bill is tendered. Then the cost per stop is then = accurate. Bidding is tough. The story of the Atlantic City Auditorium Giant is a = case in point. The bids ran from nearly $800,000 to a low of more than = $370,000. That's a half a million gap and there was a bid of a bit more than half a = million so a wide gap for the same or similar specification. Midmer/Losh got the job and lost their shirt in the process. It seems the Kimball bid was more in line with reality at a bit over $500,000. Reality is often forgotten, guarantees must be kept for the lengths of = time in the agreement. The cheapest bid is not always the best one as this case bears out. Roughly a third of the instrument had to be culled to = come in near the bid price. The top maual #7 never had pipes on it, but became a coupling manual of sorts, just to say it was a seven manual organ. everybody is looking for a bargain. GDH under bid the Motab A/S by around $20,000 and had to with the help of Schriener go back to the presidency for the money just to break about even. Harrison would have liked to have spent more time voicing and balancing, but the funds weren't there and it was largely his fault for not considering inflation in the cost of materials. Big organs are a headache to estimate end costs. Here are two examples one in 1929 and one in 1948. I'm sure there were a whole host of others. Both periods were reflective of financial upheavals. A builder needs some padding in a bid so he doesn't wind up falling on his sword in the process. What I have = described here is all hindsight, but should also be a lesson in foresight too. Bidding five to seven years out really complicates things, as churches will hold a builder's promise in the contract. One should include an escalator cluse of 7 to 10% a year to cover unforseen differences. Committies do like some sort of rule of thumb, a best guesstimate. I didn't have time to scope out the books with the figures, but they are pretty close. Ron Severin
(back) Subject: Splitting hairs From: "Charlie Lester" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 11:54:58 -0800 =3D-> The correct French term is Fl=FBte =E0 Bec <-=3D Actually, it would be "Fl=FBte =E0 bec" [assuming you'd very frequently find such a stop on a French organ] -- the French capitalize only the first word in a stop name. Fl=FBte harmonique Gambe celeste Plein jeu etc. And to split another hair, the German "Spitzfl=F6te" is not the same a "Fl=FBte =E0 bec;" rather, it would more correlate with a "Fl=FBte =E0 fuseau" ---- but again that is not a frequently found stop on French organs; but more often on American gigantaphons where the builder has run out of names!! The "Fl=FBte =E0 bec" correlates to "Recorder" in English and "Blockfl=F6te" in German. ~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~ Charlie Lester Your Organ Stop Pedant
(back) Subject: Sebastian being tempted? From: "Alan Freed" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:31:29 -0500 On 12/2/04 6:50 PM, "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Maybe you should emigrate Sebastian. Now that's ENOUGH of this talk of getting Sebastian to go abroad. We want and need him right where he IS: In New York City. And I certainly hope = he feels the same way! Alan
(back) Subject: Re:stop nomenclature From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:13:51 EST >And therein lies the problem. At the risk of skewering a sacred cow, >GDH's organs are fun to play, but they're not REALLY suited to the >authentic performance of anything, except for accompanying the Anglican >choral service, and hymns in The Grand Manner. With their reedless >Greats and 8' principal-less Positivs, they CERTAINLY aren't suitable >for French Romantic music, never mind the lack of CHORUS reeds on the >Positivs. But the problem is not necessarily the American Classic organ, it was the lack of completion...what we need is American Classic 2.0, and that's the direction that the organ in my church is headed. Every division has a = complete Principal Chorus with Mixture, a complete Reed Chorus in every division, = Flutes of various styles, there will be several cornets--including a Mounted Cornet, = as well as strings and orchestral voices. The best of all schools of organ building are represented. It may not be pure, but I didn't want it to be = pure, since we don't have a single style of music at the church. An eclectic = style of organ was necessary--one that could play grand hymns, one that could accompany, one that could "slush and gush", one that could play the organ = literature from Baroque to Contemporary. It doesn't have to be proper--it has to do = the job. Organists can criticize if they want, but if they're not happy with = it, they don't have to play it--I'm the one who's going to be on the bench, = and I'm the one who's going to have to deal with it day in and day out. Regardless of the style of instrument, a good musician will be able to = make music, whether it's a 3 rank 1 manual tracker, a 400 stop digital, the = latest and greatest electronic keyboard, or a historic clavichord. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:16:55 EST >I THINK I may have seen Hobo on a Dutch spec. Has anyone else seen Hobo? The Flentrop at Duke Chapel has a Hobo stop. I always laugh when I think about that stop, picturing in my mind the old television/movie stereotype = of a man riding a train with a bandana tied on a stick on his shoulder. LOL Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: A High Five from O & O O From: "John Foss" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:56:40 +0200 Dear List, We have five musical additions to Organs and Organists Online this week. One of my favourites, Louis Vierne's "Final from Symphonie No.1" played by = Marc Giacone on the IV/64 1974 Boisseau in the Cath=E9drale de Monaco, = Chris Howerter has sent us the Andante Sostenuto from Widor's Symphonie Gothique = Op.70, recorded on the IV/87 E.M. Skinner Organ in St John's Lutheran Church, Allentown, Pennsylvania USA, and Gregory Ceurvorst has added the Prelude, Fugue, and Variation by C=E9sar Franck, recorded on the III/42 = 1981 Martin Ott Organ in Northern Illinois University, DeKalb, Illinois. From The Hague Aarnoud de Groen sends us more from the III/28 Vierdag = Organ in the Bethlehemkerk, whose photograph graces our homepage. This time we have the pleasure of hearing the J S Bach Chorale Prelude "Nun komm der Heiden Heiland" BWV 660, and Timothy Grenz, whose command of computer website design has contributed so much to the success of the site, has recorded the Frank Bridge "Adagio in E Major" on the III/50 1967 Moller instrument in St. Philomene RC Church, Sacramento, California. We have also opened a "Reviews" section with a review of the Grant Degens = & Bradbeer organ in Tooting Methodist Church by Cecil Clutton, originally published in "The Organ" in January 1968, and reproduced by kind = permission of the publishers. I mentioned this in a recent post - though so much has been written since it has probably been forgotten. I thought it would be a = good idea to have a review section - after all, recitals and record companies do, so why not an internet site! There are certainly some performances there that are worthy of review. If any members would like to = contribute either reviews or articles on organs we would be very pleased = to hear from you. At the close of play on Tuesday, 30th November we had had 11,500 visitors = in four and a half months, of whom 7,500 were first time callers. December has got off to a good start for 12 year old Oysten Nodtvedt - = whose performance of Bach's Toccata in D minor is currently in the number one slot. This may be because it was broadcast on one of the Norwegian TV stations a couple of days ago! Reading the posts on young Jay Greenberg = made me think that on this list we had as talented a younger generation member = in the person of Jarle Fagerheim as one could wish for. OK - he hit 15 three months ago, so he's pushing it a bit, but perhaps I may repeat what I said = on my orgofftop list : Jarle has demonstrated his skills in depth in a number of fields which belie his years. As composer, organist, computer expert - how many of us have a sufficient grasp of operating systems to = use Linux? - writer of reviews, contributor to encyclopaedias (Wikipedia, an online mine of information) including part of the article on Cesar Franck, = Norwegian Trains and much else, and now adding Harmonium Restoration to = his skills, as well as being a fluent communicator in English - not his mother = tongue - I think that this versatility is worthy of more than passing = note. Not many people achieve this much during their lifetime, let alone while they are still at school! Marc Giacone's performance of Alain's "Variations on a Theme of Clement Jannequin" is at number two, and 14 year old Jared Grenz playing "Jesu Joy = of man's desiring" on the Trumpet, accompanied by his proud father, = Timothy, is in the number 3 position. This is a beautiful performance of this well loved work. John Foss http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/
(back) Subject: Re: Re:stop nomenclature From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:07:46 -0600 Monty: We are digging into something very interesting now. I have always been puzzled with how some Aeolian-Skinner organs could be dumped so easily. The complementary comments centered around the concept was that it was not any one style of building, and the the music rendered was always lacking in at least one essential property when played. You said: > But the problem is not necessarily the American Classic organ, it was the > lack of completion...what we need is American Classic 2.0 . . . Then, I suspect that your next comments about what you all are doing with the new organ describes what it will take to complete American Classic 2.0. > . . . and that's the direction that the organ in my church is headed. > Every division has a complete Principal Chorus with Mixture, > a complete Reed Chorus in every division, Flutes of various styles, > there will be several cornets--including a Mounted Cornet, as > well as strings and orchestral voices. This suggests that the reeds will dominate. Is this correct? > The best of all schools of organ building are represented. It may > not be pure, but I didn't want it to be pure, since we don't have > a single style of music at the church. An eclectic style of > organ was necessary--one that could play grand hymns, one > that could accompany, one that could "slush and gush", one > that could play the organ literature from Baroque to Contemporary. I want to know more about "purity." If an organ that will play almost anything well isn't pure, how far off from "on target" do you consider what you are planning to have when the new organ is installed? > It doesn't have to be proper--it has to do the job. BUT, . . . isn't that the essence of "purity?" AND, . . . in your situation, I can envisage that what you do in the here and now will be such a strong argument for the music rendered that I wonder how important music of yesteryear will be for your church, . . . am I saying the same thing you were? I am familiar with the arguments of those who insist that the Chorale Preludes must properly represent how it sounded when played in the great big French (or German or English) churches. Is that all there is to being "pure?" You are in North Carolina; not France, and 99.9 percent of your people don't know what a French organ sounds like differently from what you do for them with what you have already. Who among your congregation will care if the curcifixion scene in the Dubois' "Seven Last Words of Christ" rattle the windows exactly as they did in France? If the music is properly rendered by you at the organ, the crucifixion scene will be experienced, and that is the objective of the music. You can sing "Christ, We Do All Adore Thee" a capella or caress it with a grande celeste with 32-foot pedal buzzing softly to carry the conclusion into infinity. Did they do that in France? Probably not, and, again, who cares? Suppose we re-direct the concept of a "pure" American Classic to do what our modern churches need to have the kind of involvement of musicians and those who appreciate the modern musical expressions of the church? Then, let's draw a new line at the foot of the console and declare this as the new "purity" for Century 21. As far as I can see right now, American Classic 2.0 should emerge as the new standard. Go strong with it, Monty. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: tonal design From: "Liquescent" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:23:14 -0800 RMB10@aol.com wrote: >>And therein lies the problem. At the risk of skewering a sacred cow, >>GDH's organs are fun to play, but they're not REALLY suited to the >>authentic performance of anything, except for accompanying the Anglican >>choral service, and hymns in The Grand Manner. With their reedless >>Greats and 8' principal-less Positivs, they CERTAINLY aren't suitable >>for French Romantic music, never mind the lack of CHORUS reeds on the >>Positivs. > > > But the problem is not necessarily the American Classic organ, it was = the > lack of completion...what we need is American Classic 2.0, and that's = the > direction that the organ in my church is headed. Every division has a = complete > Principal Chorus with Mixture, a complete Reed Chorus in every division, = Flutes of > various styles, there will be several cornets--including a Mounted = Cornet, as > well as strings and orchestral voices. The best of all schools of organ = > building are represented. It may not be pure, but I didn't want it to = be pure, > since we don't have a single style of music at the church. An eclectic = style of > organ was necessary--one that could play grand hymns, one that could > accompany, one that could "slush and gush", one that could play the = organ literature > from Baroque to Contemporary. It doesn't have to be proper--it has to do = the > job. Organists can criticize if they want, but if they're not happy = with it, > they don't have to play it--I'm the one who's going to be on the bench, = and I'm > the one who's going to have to deal with it day in and day out. > Regardless of the style of instrument, a good musician will be able to = make > music, whether it's a 3 rank 1 manual tracker, a 400 stop digital, the = latest > and greatest electronic keyboard, or a historic clavichord. > > Monty Bennett > OK, Monty, but most of us don't have the luxury of designing a very large, "comprehensive" organ like yours. This comment is NOT directed at you or your service, but is a general observation: If an organ of intrinsic musical integrity can't do something, it probably SHOULDN'T be doing it in the first place. The largest "city" churches of a hundred years ago virtually NEVER broke 100 stops ... Riverside was probably among the first that did; St. John the Divine, the largest gothic church in the western hemisphere, had something like 113 stops after the GDH rebuild; West Point is FUN, but it doesn't NEED to be that big. St. Sulpice at 102 stops is still, AFAIK, the largest organ in France; Schoenstein's instrument for the new Mormon Assembly Hall (seating 20,000 ... that's right ... twenty thousand) in a purposely DEAD acoustic, came in at around 130 stops or ranks (I always forget which). My comment weren't directed at your stop-list. They ARE directed both at pipe organ builders and electronics that continue to perpetrate the mistakes both of GDH and the baroque "revival." Sebastian has cited many examples; I'll only cite a few, mostly repeats of his: The lack of 8' principal sound on the Sw. and Ch./Pos. in an otherwise large and complete three-manual organ. This is particularly puzzling in digital instruments, where it's NOT a question of money OR space. The lack of the all-important CHORUS reeds on the Ch./Pos., while spending huge amounts of money on multiple chamades, etc. The lack of them cripples the organ for playing the whole of French romantic literature. One simply CANNOT play French music anywhere APPROACHING correctly if ALL the reeds are either in the Swell or en chamade. Building a chamade BEFORE the chorus Trumpet on the GREAT. The lack of the "Quatre Fonds" ... open or harmonic flutes are as scarce as hen's teeth these days ... so are Great Gambas and Violoncellos, except in the largest organs, or organs by certain builders. The placing of the Krumhorn/Cromore/whatever on the SAME manual as the ONLY Jeu de Tierce/Cornet. 4' Oboes in Swells. NOTHING in the literature calls for them; if the Oboe isn't at 8', you can't play Franck, because if you put on sw/sw 16 and unison off, the bottom octave is missing. Ditto a 4' Rohr Schalmei instead of a 4' Clarion in the Swell reed chorus. They have no existence in organ literature. Neither do "mystery division" enclosed reed choruses composed of 16' Barpfeife, 8' Holtzregal , 4' Musette, etc. ... not if you're going to play the Anglican service or Romantic organ literature, anyway. They might be useful for Praetorius Dances, and I LIKE Praetorius dances, but that's not ALL I'm going to play. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Timothy Tikker Improvises Organ Soundtrack on DVD "King of Kings" From: "William T. Van Pelt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 17:04:37 -0500 Today, Cecil B. DeMille's silent epic cinema "King of Kings" is being released in a 2-DVD set following restoration. Included in the package are two "cuts" of the film and three alternative soundtracks. The soundtrack = of greatest interest to us is that improvised by Timothy Tikker on the 1925 = E. M. Skinner 4m at Jefferson Avenue Presbyterian Church, Detroit. On the = DVD, the organ is reproduced in 5.1 Surround Sound. OHS has them in stock and more information is available at http://www.ohscatalog.org where the DVD appears on the opening page.
(back) Subject: purity From: "Liquescent" <email@example.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:31:59 -0800 When someone says "I don't CARE how it sounded in France," that raises a HUGE red flag for me. First of all, you SHOULD, if you propose to correctly interpret the music AS THE COMPOSER WROTE IT. It seems to me we have an obligation as musicians to do that. One does not re-orchestrate Beethoven. As to the Dubois Seven Last Words, I doubt if it was very often performed in France without the orchestra. The fact that it IS in America has led to the low esteem in which the piece is held ... a great deal of the color and the interest is integral to the orchestral accompaniment, which the G. Schirmer reduction doesn't begin to capture. There is some conjecture that the final "Adoramus te, Christe" was a tune familiar to French congregations (perhaps from Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament during Lent?) and that the Grand Orgue joined in the final chorus to support their singing. Cheers, Bud