PipeChat Digest #4961 - Saturday, December 4, 2004
 
Re: Incorrectly named stops
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
PipeChat IRC this evening,
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Speaking of Purism...
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Re: Incorrectly named stops
  by "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: Incorrectly named stops
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
Re: Incorrectly named stops
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
George Ritchie Completes Recordings of Bach Works
  by "William T. Van Pelt" <wvanpelt@erols.com>
RE: Incorrectly named stops
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity)
  by "Phillip Schlueter" <pschlueter@adelphia.net>
Lack of Comprehensive Choruses
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Purity
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity)
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: purity
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 07:55:54 +0800   I always understood the term Hautboy was only an Anglicisation of the = French name Hautbois, meaning literally "High wood". Certainly most of = the organs I have seen in this country use Oboe as the name. In answer = to another poster I have seen Hobo in some European stoplists but I am = not sure whether it is Dutch or Scandinavian. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Daniel Hancock=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 11:39 PM Subject: RE: Incorrectly named stops     Oboe is German, but the correct English term Hautboy has almost = completely disappeared, both so far as the orchestral instrument and the = organ stop are concerned.       John Speller           The following website suggests that "Hoboe" is German, and "Oboe" is = Italian.       "Encyclopedia of Organ Stops"   http://www.organstops.org/o/Oboe.html       Hautbois French Hautboy English Oboe Italian   Hoboe German           Daniel Hancock   Springfield, Missouri  
(back) Subject: PipeChat IRC this evening, From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:06:55 -0500   All members of PipeChat are invited to join us in the PipeChat IRC any Friday and Monday evening - beginning at 9.00 PM Eastern Time.   To find out more about the Chat room, or how to get into it, go to PipeChat-L web page at http://www.pipechat.org/   You will find out all you need to know to join us.   Tonight at 9.00 PM, - I hope that we will see you there.   Cheers,   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Speaking of Purism... From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 16:15:15 -0800   =3D-> Timothy Tikker Improvises Organ Soundtrack on DVD "King of Kings" [snip] on the 1925 E. M. Skinner 4m at Jefferson Avenue Presbyterian Church, Detroit. <-=3D     Hmmm. Apparently, "historically informed" concepts do not apply to the Theatre Organ.......   ~ E      
(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:15:37 +0100   Judging by Wikipedia "hobo" is Dutch; http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo. As for the Scandinavian languages, it's "obo" in Norwegian (pronounced like German "ubu"), "=F3b=F3" (Icelandic "=F3" is like English long o) and =   "oboe" in Swedish and Danish.   - Jarle http://jarle.moo.no   bobelms wrote: > I always understood the term Hautboy was only an Anglicisation of the = French name Hautbois, meaning literally "High wood". Certainly most of the = organs I have seen in this country use Oboe as the name. In answer to = another poster I have seen Hobo in some European stoplists but I am not = sure whether it is Dutch or Scandinavian. > Bob Elms.  
(back) Subject: RE: Incorrectly named stops From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 20:33:18 -0500   Actually, since Recorders (at least the Baroque/common-or-garden variety, not the scarcer Renaissance patterns) have reverse conical bores, I would expect an organ stop of that name to be tapered.   I've often thought about getting a bunch of cheap plastic recorders, plugging fingerholes with wax, and setting them on a windchest for a real "Recorders" stop. Tenor recorders go down to 2' c, and they would about do the first octave; then alto recorders from c 13 to e 29, sopranos from f 30 to a 46, and sopraninos up to g 56 (their top note). Sopraninini in C are rare, so the top few might need to be open pipes for a 5-octave keyboard. Either that, or have it as a 4' stop with regular organ pipe basses, since even plastic bass recorders are prohibitively expensive. I've seen alto and soprano plastic records for under $10 in quantity, so it wouldn't even be outrageously expensive.   Such a stop would vary wildly in volume at random places in the compass, but it would be kind of fun!   Paul   At 2:01 PM -0500 12/3/4, TheShieling wrote: >>The correct French term is Fl=FBte =E0 Bec and the correct German is >Spitzfl=F6te. The English would be Spire Flute. >=20 >Not certain, but I feel pretty sure that a Flute a Bec (sorry about the lac= k >of accents) is a Recorder, i.e. a fipple flute, in real life. So, probably >cylindrical rather than tapered, and probably not harmonic. > >Ross   http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: Re: Incorrectly named stops From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 19:52:03 -0600   Obviously he never examined a recorder! Roy Redman --- Original Message -----=20 From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Incorrectly named stops     > >The correct French term is Fl=FBte =E0 Bec and the correct German is > Spitzfl=F6te. The English would be Spire Flute. > > Not certain, but I feel pretty sure that a Flute a Bec (sorry about the lack > of accents) is a Recorder, i.e. a fipple flute, in real life. So, probabl= y > cylindrical rather than tapered, and probably not harmonic. > > Ross > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > >   >  
(back) Subject: George Ritchie Completes Recordings of Bach Works From: "William T. Van Pelt" <wvanpelt@erols.com> Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 22:13:06 -0500   George Ritchie has completed recording the last of six volumes (11 CDs) of all of the organ works of J. S. Bach. Volume Six, =93Youthful Brilliance,=94 is recorded in =   two locations: at Saint Cecilia Cathedral in Omaha, Nebraska, on the new, dual-temperament organ built by Martin Pasi in 2003 (this is the first CD of the organ), and at House of Hope Presbyterian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota, on the magnum opus of Charles Fisk completed in 1979. The 2-CD set will be released to record stores in February and is available now at http://www.ravencd.com and also at http://www.ohscatalog.org   In the six volumes, George Ritchie, head of the organ department at the University of Nebraska, plays nine significant and recently-built American organs which are based on organs of Bach=92s time. Each volume includes a significant essay by George Stauffer on the music, registrations used for each piece, stoplists, and notes on the organs. Five of the six volumes contain two CDs each, and are sold for the price of a single CD.  
(back) Subject: RE: Incorrectly named stops From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 16:33:36 +1300   >I think Ross is right that the real equivalent of the Fl=FBte =E0 Bec = is the Recorder or Blockfl=F6te.=A0 In Germany the Blockfl=F6te can either be = tapered or cylindrical. =A0 Thank you.   I have here 1ft C, a Block Flute pipe made by Grant Degens and Bradbeer = in the late 1960s. It is on 2" wind, of enormous scale and is quite = tapered, with a huge toehole and very low wide cut-up. Made of spotted metal, it sounds awful and breathy and sort-of "flat" close to, but heard from = 20ft away or more it sounds remarkably similar to a good alto recorder made = of good wood, and the tone from that distance is clear and lovely. GD&B, of course, often followed their own whims, and I'm not therefore suggesting pipes like this would ever have been common - the scale would = traditionally have been smaller, I'm sure.   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) From: "Phillip Schlueter" <pschlueter@adelphia.net> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 00:02:52 -0500   Hello again,   Michael David wrote:   "I believe the Trinity organ also contains quite a bit of pipework from = the Moller it replaced. This from both a local (Illinois) builder and one of the current service people. As it was also probably intended to be a show piece instrument for the builder, the price was probably even more attractive. A comparable instrument with all new material and the builder hoping for a modest profit would probably have cost a lot more."   It is true that some of the old Moller was used, but to say "quite a bit" = is a bit miss-leading to the ordinary person. Since I voiced most of the pipes, I'll assemble a list of what was used. I will say that except for about 7 or 8 ranks that were used only re-voiced, every other pipe rank = was rebuilt with new lanquids.   Here is what was used only with cleaning and re-voicing: 16' Open Wood 44 pipes 16' Bourdon 44 pipes 16' Quintaton 61 pipes--new actions low 2 oct. (inflate to play) the rest = on Swell chest. 8' String 8' Celeste 8' Pedal Octave (I just don't remember if it had new languids) Pedal Mixture VII   The Positiv 4' Rohr Pipe I think was made of something from the Moller, = but new lanquids for sure. The Positiv 2', 1 3/5, and 1 1/3 are from the Moller, but selected from pipes of proper scale.   Does the above, say, "quite a bit"   I really don't think so. There were a few stops that came from other experienced organ pipes.   16' Trombone 1-30 from a 19th Century organ. 2 pipes built to fill out = the register. The 32' extension of the Trombone is 12 pipes acquired by the help of the late David Junction. The 32' Bourdon is from a 19th Century organ 9 pipes--low CCC and DDD were made new (there is no CCC#) The low octave of the Great "Viola da Gamba" is of Murray Harris, but were so fragile that only the old foot and mouth were used. The 8' Harmonic Flute in the Swell made up of old Moller, new Rosales = pipes and then pipes from the Fisk shop.   It's really hard to say if all the above saved much money in the whole scheme. I really don't think it did in terms of American labor (mine!!, HOHO!) and others.   I am sorry, I didn't intent to cloud this issue. Just didn't want to = write more in my first post.   Phil Schlueter Buffalo, New York      
(back) Subject: Lack of Comprehensive Choruses From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 00:34:44 EST   >The lack of 8' principal sound on the Sw. and Ch./Pos. in an otherwise >large and complete three-manual organ. This is particularly puzzling in >digital instruments, where it's NOT a question of money OR space.   >The lack of the all-important CHORUS reeds on the Ch./Pos., while >spending huge amounts of money on multiple chamades, etc. The lack of >them cripples the organ for playing the whole of French romantic >literature. One simply CANNOT play French music anywhere APPROACHING >correctly if ALL the reeds are either in the Swell or en chamade.   >Building a chamade BEFORE the chorus Trumpet on the GREAT.   >The lack of the "Quatre Fonds" ... open or harmonic flutes are as scarce >as hen's teeth these days ... so are Great Gambas and Violoncellos, >except in the largest organs, or organs by certain builders.   >The placing of the Krumhorn/Cromore/whatever on the SAME manual as the >ONLY Jeu de Tierce/Cornet.   >4' Oboes in Swells. NOTHING in the literature calls for them; if the >Oboe isn't at 8', you can't play Franck, because if you put on sw/sw 16 >and unison off, the bottom octave is missing.   >Ditto a 4' Rohr Schalmei instead of a 4' Clarion in the Swell reed >chorus. They have no existence in organ literature.   >Neither do "mystery division" enclosed reed choruses composed of 16' >Barpfeife, 8' Holtzregal , 4' Musette, etc. ... not if you're going to >play the Anglican service or Romantic organ literature, anyway. They >might be useful for Praetorius Dances, and I LIKE Praetorius dances, but >that's not ALL I'm going to play.   I'm with you 100%, Bud. On digitals, it's a marketing tool to get you to "buy up." On a pipe organ, it's simply a budget issue or a matter of poor =   planning because the organist "had to have" something special like a 8' = Party Horn en Chamade with spun copper resonators speaking on 18" of pressure, but in =   doing so gave up necessities such as the 8' Swell Oboe and two of the four = 8' Great Foundations. That's when the builder has to step up to the plate = and as the old anti-drug commercial used to proclaim--"just say NO!"   Some of the cutsey stops are nice when a real chorus has been built, and there's chamber space and money for them, but not sacrificing an integral = part of the organ's tonal structure.   As to the Cornet and the Cromorne being on the same manual...Why on earth = do builders INSIST on doing that? Read the TAO and Diapason each month and you'll see it on 75% of the instruments. I remember learning that a = Cornet and Cromorne always were in dialogue when I was a kid learning some French = Classic pieces.   It all comes back to education...or lack thereof. (and willingness to = learn)   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Purity From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 00:53:47 EST   >BUT, . . . isn't that the essence of "purity?"   >AND, . . . in your situation, I can envisage that what you >do in the here and now will be such a strong argument for >the music rendered that I wonder how important music of >yesteryear will be for your church, . . . am I saying the >same thing you were?   Richard asks a good point here about purity...when I talked about the American Classic organ not being pure, it was an eclectic blending of = styles, with a definite English/American accent, taking ideals from French and German and =   British styles of building, then amalgamating them into the what we have = come to know today. It's a melting pot of styles--a jack of all trades and master = of none, as the saying goes. So while it can do a lot of things, it doesn't really do Baroque literature justice without a lot of creative = registrations and you can't really play French music and have it sound authentic. You have = the stops, but they are not the character that you need to be "authentic." = That's what I mean by pure. As Bud says, the American Classic organ does = Anglican choral accompaniment and hymn playing well, but lacks in other things.   The organ in my church will have definite leanings to the Anglo American = way, but the reeds will have some French kick to them, the Swell flutes will be =   the bubbly colorful flutes that Venetian area organ builders are known = for, etc. There will be a lot more character and crispness, while retaining the = warmth and richness of the Romantic/Orchestral influences.   The music of yesteryear is very important for my church as is the music of =   today....that's why I needed a solidly designed organ, with complete = choruses so I could whip off Bach Fugues, Vierne movements, big hymns, French = toccatas, choral accompaniments, and then turn around and play contemporary Gospel music--all at the touch of a piston!   What we need more of is not a lot of large hodge-podge instruments, we = need well designed instruments, with good scaling and tonal finishing AND = people who know how to use them once they are installed. There is a reason for an instrument to be designed in a certain way, but it seems that more and = more people have forgotten why they need certain things in order to just have their fantasy stoplists fulfilled, which while it may be nice, doesn't benefit = anyone, especially the music program at the church where may be installed. Do it = once and do it right so you don't have to go back and fix stupid mistakes such = as having the Oboe at 4', having to add ranks to fill in tonal gaps, etc. It = just pays to be informed.   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organ Pricing (was Theories of Relativity) From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:47:46 -0500   At 10:59 AM 2004-12-03 -0600, you wrote: >Hello, John: > > > As a matter of interest, where is everyone on this issue? > > Some organbuilders import a lot of stuff from Europe, > > others hardly anything. How is this affecting people as > > a whole? British, German and Italian organbuilders who > > export of instruments to North America must presumably > > be suffering too. Does anyone have a handle on this? > >My import surcharge went up to 10 percent last summer. >I received an increase to 15 percent last week. This is >supposedly based on the change in value of the USDollar >in relation to the Euro. > >That is only two points on a curve; don't project yet. > >F. Richard Burt > Richard,   Man, that has got to hurt. Hopefully you put on your proposals, the price =   is valid for 30 days, or any change in currency rate.   I'm sure it is going to affect quantity of sales of European organs, both pipe and electronic.   Arie V.      
(back) Subject: Re: purity From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 02:07:43 -0500   At 02:31 PM 2004-12-03 -0800, you wrote: >When someone says "I don't CARE how it sounded in France," that raises a >HUGE red flag for me. > >First of all, you SHOULD, if you propose to correctly interpret the music =   >AS THE COMPOSER WROTE IT. It seems to me we have an obligation as >musicians to do that. One does not re-orchestrate Beethoven.   Bud,   I just bought a disc of Widor, Vierne, Dupre, and Messiean playing their own works.   Widor plays his famous toccata on this disc. He was 88 when he recorded it. My point here is we have the composer playing his own work, and yet I =   have never heard any organist today play it that way. Does that mean no one today plays this piece as Widor intended it to be played? Does = anybody care about how Widor played it?   Personally, I find most of the playing on this disc rather pedestrian sounding in terms of performance.   Why go to arcane lengths to sort out how Bach should be played, when we disregard composers who played their own music and had it recorded for posterity sake?   Just a question.   Arie V.