PipeChat Digest #4994 - Monday, December 13, 2004 RE: The Wolverhampton Compton by "Will Light" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Re: Organs & Church Music In Holland by "John Vanderlee" <email@example.com> Piano/organ or piano 4 hnds by "Charles Peery" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Detective Needed!! by "Phil Stimmel" <email@example.com> Re: Piano/organ or piano 4 hnds by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Possible Christmas choir anthem by "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Re: "Night of Snobbery" by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: "Night of Snobbery" by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Wenceslas.... by "Jonathan Orwig" <email@example.com> Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic by "Cole" <firstname.lastname@example.org> "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING AND ORGAN (x post) by <ScottFop@aol.com> FOLLOW UP: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING CHURCH (x post) by <ScottFop@aol.com> lilies and Battle Hymns by "Liquescent" <email@example.com> RE: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING AND ORGAN (x post) by "Robert Bell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: lilies and Battle Hymns by <RonSeverin@aol.com> Re: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING AND ORGAN (x post) by <ScottFop@aol.com> Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Re: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING AND ORGAN (x post) by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Re: lilies and Battle Hymns by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
(back) Subject: RE: The Wolverhampton Compton From: "Will Light" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:08:52 -0000 I've just noticed that in my posting of the Wolverhampton specification = I forgot to include the Solo organ - so here it is: SOLO Violon Cello 8' =09 Viole Celeste 8' =09 Harmonic Flute 8' =09 Harmonic Flute 4' =09 Clarinet 8' =09 Orchestral Oboe 8' =20 Tuba 8' =09 Kinura 8' =09 Krummet 8' =09 English Horn 8' =09 Trumpet 8'=20 Tuba Clarion 4' Tibia Clausa 8' Tibia Clausa 4' Tibia Clausa 2'2/3'' Tibia Clausa 2' Piano 8' Glockenspiel 4' Xylophone 4' Vibraphone 4' Chimes=20 Tremulant=20 Unison Off=20 Sub Octave Octave Great To Solo Sub Octave Great To Solo Unison Great To Solo Octave Great To Solo Quint Great To Solo Tierce Steve Tovey being a Theatre organ man through and through has included a couple of "Blackpool couplers" at the end there! Please don't throw = things! Will Light Coventry UK -----Original Message----- From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of = Andy Lawrence Sent: 13 December 2004 02:47 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: The Wolverhampton Compton > I have heard from what I consider to be a reliable source that=20 > Compton knew of the advantages of the draw, and when planting his=20 > unit windchests, made sure that the "G" pipes of the lesser rank=20 > were in proximity to the "C" pipes of the more powerful, prime rank.=20 > That way, if the quints were wired off the purely-tuned rank, the=20 > acoustical draw would be accentuated by the "fifth-shift" in the = planting. CLEVER!!! Andy A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Administration: mailto:email@example.com List-Subscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> List-Digest: <mailto:email@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:43:00 EST When I was at my first church right out of college, and was in a rural = town in the deeeeeeeeeeeeeep South, the Battle Hymn of the Republic was NOT a = song to be sung, even though it was in our non-denominational, evangelical = hymnal. There had been an incident in years past, before my congregation had = broken away from it's parent church, and had left the denomination for a more conservative, evangelical brand of Christianity, in which at the "mother" = church (from which my church broke away) the music director did the Wilhousky = arrangement one Sunday. An older man stood up during the piece and started shouting = about how no Southern church should ever be singing that Yankee song, etc. So, when I started there, I was warned by the pastor, that even though the = anthem was in the choir library, it would be wise never to do it, and that = it would be a good idea never to sing it during church. He said he didn't = have a problem with it, but that older members of the congregation probably = would, and he didn't want to have a situation like what had happened before our = church had split away from the other church. Anyway, the way we got around it, because each 4th of July, I was asked if we were going to do the Wilhousky = (which I happen to love), was that the pastor wouldn't let me do it because the = hymn was written by a Unitarian. I would send the people to hymn, and he would = explain the same thing to them, and when he explained that doctrinally he = couldn't have a Trinitarian congregation singing a Unitarian hymn, they were in = full accord. Mind you, there are hymns in the hymnal written by people who = were not ultra-conservative, evangelicals, and the congregation didn't bat an eye, = but mention Unitarian, and they'd flip out--mainly because my former church = was named "Trinity." The funny thing is that Harry emerson Fosdick's great = hymn, "God of grace, God of glory," is in there--written for the dedication of = The Riverside Church building in NYC in 1930. If my former congregation knew = the history of Fosdick's liberal leanings, and how he defected from a = traditional, fundamental Presbyterian background to a liberal Protestant one, they = would also go nuts! Yet, they would sing that hymn with gusto...LOL Back to the Battle Hymn, why doesn't Scot like the Wilhousky arrangement? = If ever there has been a classic, that's the one. People in the congregation = can sing along, because they've usually sung it in college choirs or "back = when I was in high school choir"--it makes them have good memories, and it = makes them feel good. Once in a while, you've got to throw them an old = standard--just because. It's why we do excerpts from Messiah, it's why we do things like = the Holy City, and the other old gems. Then we can get away with all the = other things that WE want to do. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:36:55 EST In a message dated 12/13/04 4:44:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, = RMB10@aol.com writes: > Back to the Battle Hymn, why doesn't Scot like the Wilhousky = arrangement? > If > ever there has been a classic, that's the one. People in the = congregation > can sing along, because they've usually sung it in college choirs or = "back > when > I was in high school choir"--it makes them have good memories, and it = makes > them feel good. Once in a while, you've got to throw them an old > standard--just > because. It's why we do excerpts from Messiah, it's why we do things = like > the Holy City, and the other old gems. Then we can get away with all = the > other > things that WE want to do. i never said i don't do it. i just said i don't like it. and every time = i hear it, by the time the "beauty of the liles" section comes around i'm = looking for razor blades. however, i do admit that about a month ago i heard it done beautifully for = the first time in my life, and by the mormon tabernacle choir. of course, = they used a full orchestra rather than a piano or organ badly imitating the = drum, trumpet, and piccolo. still, the lily section made me think of looking = for my straight-edge. funny story, though, monty. reminds me of a girl i met in college who refused to listen to the mormon tabernacle choir based solely on the fact = that she didn't agree with their theology. scot
(back) Subject: Re: Organs & Church Music In Holland From: "John Vanderlee" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:40:50 -0800 If you have a chance, visit Rotterdam. the St Lauren's church literally resurrected from the ashes of WWII contains the largest classical pipe organ in Holland; installed right after the restoration of the structure. the church contains 3 organs: a small choir organ , a larger "transept " organ, and then the "big one" visualy quite stunning as well. John V ( born in Rotterdam, now a US citizen)
(back) Subject: Piano/organ or piano 4 hnds From: "Charles Peery" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:00:56 -0500 Dear listers, I found out yesterday that a brother of a choirmember is a concert pianist and will be in town Dec. 20-28. It seems a shame not to use him in that span, yet I find myself unaware of suitable piano/organ duets or piano 4-hands pieces for Christmas. Hesitant to use the words "not tacky" after the current discussions of musical taste, let me just say I'm looking for something that will do justice to his considerable skills. I'm asking about both things because at my church, doing piano/organ things is sometimes ruled out because of temperature/tuning issues. If it gets to a certain point, I just can't stand it. I'm not interested in anthems with piano/organ or 4 hands piano, am pretty "up" on that and have two picked out already. Just looking for instrumental pieces only. Thanks, Chuck Peery St. Louis
(back) Subject: Detective Needed!! From: "Phil Stimmel" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:12:12 -0500 I'm looking for someone living in the Reading, Pa area that might be able = to do a bit of "detective" work for me. Preferably someone who knows about = the various pipe organs in the area. Trying to locate a "missing" Estey = organ. Please contact me off-list. Thanks. Phil Stimmel The Estey Pipe Organ - A Virtual Museum - www.esteyorgan.com
(back) Subject: Re: Piano/organ or piano 4 hnds From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:17:28 -0800 (PST) Hello, It's not super demanding of the organist, but the Flor Peeters Concerto for Piano & Organ is a fine work....little heard unfortunately. I believe it is a Peeters edition, but don't hold me to that. If I were you, I'd start practising NOW! Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- Charles Peery <email@example.com> wrote: > Dear listers, > > I found out yesterday that a brother of a > choirmember is a concert > pianist and will be in town Dec. 20-28. It seems a > shame not to use > him in that span, yet I find myself unaware of > suitable piano/organ > duets __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
(back) Subject: Re: Possible Christmas choir anthem From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:19:17 -0800 (PST) The Rutter Still Still Still is not bad at all. We just did it at Immanuel = yesterday as a part of our lessons/Carols service. TDH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
(back) Subject: Re: "Night of Snobbery" From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:00:30 -0800 (PST) Hello, For me, one of the great delights of Christmas, is to hear the quality "lighter side" of music. I don't know if one could ever accuse John Rutter of being a light-musician, but when it comes to tasteful light-heartedness, he is in a class of his own. The traditions of Christmas have always been firmly rooted in folk-music rather than the four-square tunes such as "Hark the Herald." People got terribly "sniffy" when Vaughan-Williams dug out those old mummer's carols and folk tunes from long ago, but what a delight they are! The French bounce of Charpentier, the giggling Czech tradition of carols such as "Girls and boys, bring your toys" ....(the Zither Carol) or the sheer fun of that Victorian shouting-match, "Hail smiling morn!" I'm all for "Wishing you a Merry Christmas" in the most musically outrageous arrangement I can find. If we can't enter into the spirit of Christmas, there's something wrong with us. NOW is the time to giggle and laugh, for we will all be knee deep in snow shortly. One word of advice for the younger end. By all means giggle and laugh, but NEVER fall off the organ bench. That can be grieveously misunderstood! Ah well! Back to practising my arrangement of "Run rabbit run".......that can't be right......that's for Easter! Regards, Colin Mitchell UK > > >> "Roger Brown" wrote: > > >Now THAT right there could not be a more perfect > example of > >the kind of nose-upturned attitude we have been > discussing, > >that is driving away a lot of people in general, > and young > >people in particular, from the organ and the A.G.O. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: RE: "Night of Snobbery" From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 07:10:22 +1300 >The traditions of Christmas have always been firmly rooted in folk-music rather than the four-square tunes such as "Hark the Herald." At least until the mid-Victorians anyway. >The French bounce of Charpentier, the giggling Czech tradition of carols such as "Girls and boys, bring your toys" ....(the Zither Carol) or the sheer fun of that Victorian shouting-match, "Hail smiling morn!" Oh aye. I'm all for carols from a variety of traditions, and am = particularly fond of Austrian and German carols. Some of the calypso carols are great fun, too. and again, I'm fond of the eastern-European carols. People are gradually writing them here, too, and there's a very cheerful one called = "An upside-down Christmas", emphasising that we're having Christmas in the = South Pacific at the "wrong" time of the year. >for we will all be knee deep in snow shortly. Speak for yourself! I have no idea what a white Christmas would feel like. Here, we rather sillily (my word, and I like it) sing "In the bleak midwinter" while the temperature is about 24C, the church windows are all open, the ceiling fans are going, and the people in the congregation are jacket-less, tie-less, and many of the men are in shorts and sandals (I won't describe the women). Ross
(back) Subject: Wenceslas.... From: "Jonathan Orwig" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:29:12 -0800 So many have responded "when can I get this?!?!" that I cranked out the change on the website andd added a button to buy: http://www.evensongmusic.net/ Choose "Organ" from the drop-down link and then go browse either composer - Stephen Best or myself. from the links on that page for this piece only, I'm offering PDF upload, just in case you want to use it this year and can't wait to have it! BTW, at last count, nearly 300 of you had downloaded it the mp3! Amazing.... Enjoy! -Jonathan
(back) Subject: Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic From: "Cole" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:12:17 -0500 Take a minute and think on those words: In the beauty of the lilies, Christ was born across the sea. Obviously from someone who had no idea about the Incarnation of God in the Messiah, Jesus, as put forth in the = Gospel. Cole Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio >i never said i don't do it. i just said i don't like it. and every time = >i hear it, by the time the "beauty of the liles" section comes around i'm = >looking for razor blades.
(back) Subject: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING AND ORGAN (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:32:58 EST Hello all Shortly after buying the house I got a new TV (Hitachi 51" HD projection) = and a really cool theatre surround sound system which is like having a theatre = in my home, which is really enjoyable. Today I was watching "Sound of Music" and, as usual on the old VHS = version, the wedding scene kept getting played over and over and over and over. It = just gets me every time. The music, the procession, that grand Pre-Vatican II Cathedral (which was actually filmed about 20 kilometers outside Salzburg = as the Salzburg Cathedral would not allow filming). I am really learning to love = DVDs, as I have just bought my first few as this is my first DVD player, = and the special features included on the DVDs always give lots of interesting = history and information about the films. The location of the organ case shown (track 45) is not specified, however = I cannot believe that it wouldn't be the organ in the same church where this = scene was filmed, especially with the consistency of gold leaf and decor = as seen on the high, and I do mean HIGH, Altar. The organ sequence that is heard, that very familiar introduction as Maria = prepares for her long walk up the aisle, was composed by Ashley Miller. = (This same sequence made a very recent note-for-note appearance on "Back in the Black," recorded at the Iowa Theatre in Cedar Rapids!) I also know that = it was recorded on the now gone Robert Morton pipe organ in the former Lorin = Whitney Studio in Glendale, CA. I do not know who plays it on the film, although = I would offer an educated guess that it might be Ashley Miller. Now, as she goes up that aisle, and I see the Captain and children in the Sanctuary on the right, the Archbishop, Deacon and Subdeacon (in proper = vestments and dalmatics including Maniple!) I always get goosebumps. Not only is = the film dramatically shot and the angles and lighting spectacular, but THAT = was REAL LITURGY, not this watered-down crap we sadly see so often today. Not = always, but all too frequently. Why are we SCARED of beauty and ceremony? = Yes, that's right, that's what I said, I don't care who likes or dislikes it. = Too bad, get over it. I dare say that if the R.C. Church went BACK to such architecture and ceremony, BACK to High Masses instead of = every-mass-the-same with the possible exception of an anemic puff of smoke from a dirty thurible on = rare occasion, and went back to BEAUTY of worship, not these little campfires = with salad-bar "altars" that people might be inspired enough to start filling = the pews again. This scene shows altar boys in cassocks, surplices and = shoulder capes and holding candle sticks while another (on the left) is wrapped in = the Cope for later in the ceremony. I am not going to get on a Liturgical = diatribe here, but I think my points are clearly enough understood here. Moving on = here... Another interesting detail that I never noticed on the VHS version is that = the organ plays THROUGHOUT the entire sequence. While the nuns are = singing it is subdued, but the upperwork is there. Actually, to be honest, I believe = it is a sea of 2' stops and reeds with the super coupler on as I don't = believe the Whitney Morton had mixtures. There is a MONSTROUS 8' Diapason in that chorus. Every church needs one of those! There's also a rather potent = 16' Pedal Trombone. All of this can be clearly heard, as well as the part during = the introduction where the melody is played on the Great and the left hand = chords played on the Accompaniment manual with a lesser yet still very rich = registration with a prominent 8' foundation. At the end, as the camera pans up the = reredos of the High Altar, one can clearly hear the organ still pealing away in = the background. I have never heard that before and have probably seen this = movie at least 50 times, not counting the continued repeated playings of the Cathedral wedding scene alone. Now, here's another really cool little detail, which I am surprised was = left in as is seen in the final film, and I never would have noticed this = without my rewind and fast forward buttons on my DVD remote: one will notice that = the wedding takes place in the daytime. The stained glass windows in the apse = and the frosted nave windows are clearly backlit with natural light. However, = at the end of the sequence when the camera pans up the reredos, the windows = are black from the darkness outside. I watched this three times to make sure = I wasn't imagining. So, either the wedding took place in late afternoon = and, being a Solemn High Nuptial Mass lasting at least 90 minutes, ended after = sundown, or this is a big Hollywood editorial blooper. haha Now, the ceremony could not have ended after dark as the bells of the Cathedral (ironically in the towers of the main Salzburg Cathedral) are = pealing at the conclusion of the ceremony IN DAYLIGHT. So- here we have a big = Hollywood editorial blooper. Not a big deal at all, and it certainly doesn't detract from the movie, = but I just found this a really neat little detail. I wonder how many others = have ever noticed this? I also wonder how many times Julie Andrews walked up that long aisle, and = how many times they filmed that genuflect with the Matron of Honor and the = Best Man. Of course, in the days of truly solemn Liturgy, that's the way it = was done, everyone in sync and together. Today, sadly, it seems to be catch = as catch can more times than not. (I should have lived 100 years ago...<sigh>) Anyone have other interesting facts or details about the wedding scene = and/or the organ used? -Scott Scott F. Foppiano Memphis, TN (firstname.lastname@example.org) Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat.
(back) Subject: FOLLOW UP: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING CHURCH (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:44:53 EST Here are what I was able to find on the actual church where the "Sound of Music" wedding scene was filmed (below). Does anyone else have further information on the church, its interior or its organ? http://europeforvisitors.com/europe/news/mondsee-candlelight-concerts.htm http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou.photo.data.text.fw37/fw17457v.hts http://www.tiscover.at/at/guide/65618sy,de,SCH1/objectId,SIG108613at,curr,E= UR,parentId,RGN105686at,season,at1,selectedEntry,sights.html/intern.html Scott F. Foppiano Memphis, TN (email@example.com) Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat.
(back) Subject: lilies and Battle Hymns From: "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:03:07 -0800 Um, "the beauty of the lilies" is a biblical quote, I believe, or at least a reference to one of the Messiah's titles in scripture ... "lily of the valley", "bright and morning star", etc., as another well-known old hymn has it. The Battle Hymn was the abolitionist anthem; Southerners still bristle whenever it's sung or played. I could say a lot more, but I won't. Bud
(back) Subject: RE: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING AND ORGAN (x post) From: "Robert Bell" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:11:31 -0500 Scott wrote: "The organ sequence that is heard, that very familiar introduction as = Maria prepares for her long walk up the aisle, was composed by Ashley Miller. (This same sequence made a very recent note-for-note appearance on "Back = in the Black," recorded at the Iowa Theatre in Cedar Rapids!) I also know = that it was recorded on the now gone Robert Morton pipe organ in the former = Lorin Whitney Studio in Glendale, CA. I do not know who plays it on the film, although I would offer an educated guess that it might be Ashley Miller." Scott, Thanks for the heads up on the possible "bloopers." I love those things. Do you know if the Ashley Miller intro was ever published or is available. I've always loved that sequence. Thanks again. Bob
(back) Subject: Re: lilies and Battle Hymns From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:20:05 EST Bud: Southerners are and will ever be in the Union of States. They can look at things this way, We lost a bitter war, but we are still Americans and we are still free. In a very real way we won too, at least having our = say. It's over now these last 149 years. We all lost loved ones north and = south. We can never bring those lives back, so let's honor the dead, bury the hatchet, never mind petty quarrels and live in peace. Long live The Battle Hymn no matter who wrote it. It tells the American story of struggle. It seems we are still holding a grudge against ourselves. I hope we are one people, STILL! Ron Severin
(back) Subject: Re: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING AND ORGAN (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:31:14 EST In a message dated 12/13/04 2:12:53 PM Central Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Do you know if the Ashley Miller intro was ever published or is = available. > I've always loved that sequence. Actually, I have never seen it published myself, I did a note for note transcription from the recording, it's all I knew to do at the time, but I = think I got it 99.9% accurate. The same is true of the song "Beyond the Rainbow" = by Leroy Shield, also on the "Back In the Black" CD from Cedar Rapids. -SF Scott F. Foppiano Memphis, TN (email@example.com) Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat.
(back) Subject: Re: Battle Hymn of the Republic From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:29:14 EST In a message dated 12/13/04 11:14:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Take a minute and think on those words: In the beauty of the lilies, > Christ was born across the sea. Obviously from someone who had no idea > about the Incarnation of God in the Messiah, Jesus, as put forth in the > Gospel. > > Cole Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio > yes, i know that. it's the musical interpretation i do NOT like about it. = i'd prefer to just have the words read without being sung.
(back) Subject: Re: "SOUND OF MUSIC" WEDDING AND ORGAN (x post) From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:37:02 EST back around 1980 or so, i tried to get a copy of the score of that first section, and when i found out it wasn't published, i transcribed it = myself. have used it at a number of weddings since. scot
(back) Subject: Re: lilies and Battle Hymns From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:02:40 EST As A further thought, What the Civil War was fought for, Slavery, Nobody in their right mind today would even consider buying or keeping slaves to do the hard labor out in the hot southern summer sun, not even southerners. The truly sad part about slavery is that their own people went out in raiding parties to catch other black people for sale to white people. The ones that weren't killed, were tied to poles and trused up like animals, or bagged in nets, caught in traps. Some didn't even make it across the Atlantic, but died and tossed overboard. It's not a pretty picture. Many southerners used to try to justify the practice based on the bible, if you can believe that one, I mean really!!! I'm talking about people. In many cases they were treated very badly. Strom Thurman's own black daughter, is finally telling her story in her new book. During most of her life she was denied the right to call Strom Dad or Father. He took good care of her though, sent her to the best schools, she taught school for 37 years, but now finally she can call him daddy at age 80. If the truth were fully known, there were a couple of flies in the = ointment also. There was also European agents and money being spent on both the north and south, to arm them, hoping to carve up this new nation into their own spheres of influence. What is not generally known is that Queen Elizabeth II still owns vast parts of the state of = Virginia, Tobacco plantations. Also parts of other states too. It wasn't a fight so much for even slavery but for our soverenty and our very freedom. Did you forget about the British invasion and war of 1812 Overture fame? Just a thumbnail sketch, Ron Severin