PipeChat Digest #5008 - Thursday, December 16, 2004
 
RE: Organ Shoes
  by "Russ Parker" <rparker@heightscpc.org>
Re: Console Accessories
  by "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com>
Re: Organ Shoes
  by "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com>
Re: But I Would Not Have You To Be Ignorant, Brethren
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Conditor vs. Creator
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Downes and the Royal Festival Hall
  by "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
Re: Console Accessories
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
New Radio Station
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Downes and the Royal Festival Hall
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: Downes and the Royal Festival Hall
  by "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk>
RE: The softer side of organ music ... [Was: Willis ...]
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
RE: Downes and the Royal Festival Hall
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Organ Shoes From: "Russ Parker" <rparker@heightscpc.org> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:56:13 -0700   I have a pair of Capezio dance shoes that I've used for organ playing = for 11 years. They're very comfortable, haven't fallen apart yet, and I = find it easier to play in them than in street shoes. I'm on and off of = the bench quite a bit on Sunday morning, but I don't mind walking in = them as long as I don't have to go outside. =20 If street shoes work for some of you, that's great, but I'll hang on to = my Capezios. =20 Russ Parker  
(back) Subject: Re: Console Accessories From: "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:16:45 -0500   At 01:47 PM 16/12/2004 -0600, Daniel wrote: > > Like the time we >found a pair of BVDs stuffed in the bench. One only hoped >they had not been previously used but were just stored there >as "emergency spares." > >Now what's BVD? It's probably obvious, I know!   http://www.bvd.com :)))   Have fun! Ad ;->      
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Shoes From: "David Evangelides" <davide@theatreorgans.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:28:22 -0700   My favorite pair is an old Florshiem patent leather loafer. Has good support, thin soles, heel about 1 1/2", and narrow width to keep from hitting all the pedals at once.   Polishing the soles from time to time keeps the soles from grit and rough spots, and provides a good sliding ability off the pedals, which I like. I try not to wear them in the street or on concrete, and use them for special occasions.   OK - call me excentric!!!   However, I've played in low cut boots, Western boots, or whatever loafers I have available. But with age and seriousness, I try to use a dedicated pair for organ use only.   Anyone recall an article mentioning that European organs were commonly played wearing boots?     David E   David Evangelides Fulfillment Manager International Bible Society 719-867-2729 (Sent by wireless T-Mobile Sidekick)  
(back) Subject: Re: But I Would Not Have You To Be Ignorant, Brethren From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:42:43 -0600   Margo Dillard wrote:   > As everyone seems to agree the Peterson is out of print - is there a > setting of this text that is in print that you could recommend - fancy > or plain, matters not. Or do you know a source for the Peterson - > even a single copy?   I just checked worldcat, searching for title keyword "cantata" and author "Peterson, John W.", I came up with forty Worldcat entries, about half of which are for scores. Allowing for some duplication of entries, this probably represents 15 different titles. I know, though, that the word "cantata": was not always used in the title if Peterson's cantatas efforts in the genre. Might the work have had a different title? Worldcat does not list any item by Peterson with the word "comfortless" in the title.   The first place I'd check if you've not done so already, is the music library at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. Secopnd place is Library of Congress. If you can acquire permission to make the copies you need, you should be able to get it from one or the other of those. Also, you might try posting on another church music list. Bound to be multitudes of copies of this in some church's back cupboard, but I'd guess that most of the churches which have them, do not presently employ musicians who are members of this list.   ns      
(back) Subject: Re: Conditor vs. Creator From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:57:50 -0600   Steve wrote, in part:   > Anyone up for a really obscure trivia question? Many Protestant > churches sing an Advent hymn to the tune Conditor Alme Siderum, while > most Roman Catholic sources use the tune Creator Alme Siderum. The > tunes are identical, save for one note. Creator: mi do mi sol SOL la > fa sol. Conditor: mi do mi sol LA la fa sol. I have not had the > opportunity to compare the texts and sources, but suspect that the > "conditor variant" in the chant might be Sarum usage,   To which Bud's explanation is correct. Filling in a bit of the details, the original form of the hymn was "Conditor", it was under the Papacy of Urban VIII in the late Sixteenth century that it was changed to "Creator." As ar as the tune was concerned, there was considerable more variability in chant melodies from one source to another, and both may have been correct, even in nearby foundations. For a more thorough explanation of variants in tunes, though the subject is the tune and text to Salve Regina, see Robert Snow's book, _A New World Collection of Polyphony,_ published by U. of Chicago Press.   ns  
(back) Subject: Downes and the Royal Festival Hall From: "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:00:52 +0200   Oy! Watch it Taylor! (If I could do a smiley I would!)   Alan Taylor wrote:   "Downes was an amateur. He should never have been given the responsibility =   of the new organ at the RFH. I am sure there were others, at the time, who =   were qualified and would have made a better job of it."   I might be - I really don't know - the only member of this list who was = both a student of Ralph Downes and has played at the Royal Festival Hall in a concert. Ralph Downes knew what he wanted and how to get it. He was a man = of iron determination, and admitting the awful dry acoustics - which RD liked =   but I don't (he reckoned that the purity of the line was untramelled) - it =   is, as Colin says, a magnificent organ. Very exciting to play when you are =   up close. It is extremely well thought out and can play virtually all schools of music. We would still be stuck in the dark ages of monopods if = it had not been for Downes. He was not an amateur. He spent a lot of time = late at night getting the organ as he wanted it, and quite a bit of = professional work was done on the reeds and mixtures. He wasn't an organ builder - fair =   enough - but leave Harrison's in 1955 to do what they wanted to do and you =   would come up with something like the organ in Harrow School Speech room which was built at the same time as the RFH. Totally unimaginative. = Superbly made.   Ross commented on the Sydney Opera House organ. Although it is the largest =   tracker in the world, Ron Sharpe didn't (doesn't!) like loud noises, and voiced everything accordingly. But it has been beefed up recently, and = when I heard it at the 25th anniversary concert it came over very well. I think =   the acoustics in that building are much better than the RFH.   A superb example of an organ where the builders were left to do what they thought best is the III/52 Von Beckerath in the Great Hall of Sydney University. The consultant, Norman Johnson, having travelled the world, chose them and then let them get on with it. I imagine this is usually the =   case with German organs.   John Foss http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/            
(back) Subject: Re: Console Accessories From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:13:01 -0500   One has to wonder at the thought, - but Ad knows everything!   Thanks Ad!   Bob Conway (who hardly ever knows anything).     At 04:16 PM 12/16/2004, Ad wrote: >At 01:47 PM 16/12/2004 -0600, Daniel wrote: >> > Like the time we >>found a pair of BVDs stuffed in the bench. One only hoped >>they had not been previously used but were just stored there >>as "emergency spares." >> >>Now what's BVD? It's probably obvious, I know! > > http://www.bvd.com :))) > > Have fun! > Ad ;->      
(back) Subject: New Radio Station From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:18:14 -0500   From the "other" list I learned of a new organ and choral Internet music =   station. Check it out.   http://music.episcopalsingles.org/   I found that for me to hear it I had to download Winamp to get it to work, =   but it really is an excellent programme!   Give it a whirl!   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Re: Downes and the Royal Festival Hall From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:19:52 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I feel that I must fly to the defence of the late Ralph Downes "heavyweight"......not least, because I more or less implied that the man was totally impractical when he advised about the restoration of the celebrated Schulze organ at St.Bart's, Armley, here in the UK.   Downes, as consultant, had put forward the proposal that the organ be exactly reconstructed as it was originally, complete with Barker-lever machinery etc.   This, I felt, was just too expensive to even contemplate, and evidence that Downes was not a pragmatist or even a man with much common sense. As a result, I entered into lively debate with Stephen Bicknell, and I utterly changed my views about Ralph Downes as a consequence....Stephen was right and I was very wrong, and happy to be proven so!   To quote Stephen, "Ralp Downes would have enjoyed the lively and often acrimonius debate.....he wanted people to think."   I have re-visited much of what Stephen wrote, and also the files I kept on the subject of Ralph Downes, and what follows is therefore based on many of the details which Stephen Bicknell wrote.   I recall a magnificent tribute to Ralph Downes which Stephen wrote:-   "Downes....... the finest organ builder in Britain of the period 1950 - 2000, even though he was an amateur."   Why should a highly respected historian and organ journalist/organ builder as Stephen Bicknell make such a statement?   In his own book "Baroque Tricks", Ralph Downes more or less admits that many of the early experiments with pipe-scales and voicing techniques were not always successful....a modest statement from the man who revolutionised British organ-building.   A few Stephen Bicknell "facts".....   1) Downes specified free, variable scaling 2) Downes was responsible for the introduction of wide scale flutes, mutations and upperwork into the UK 3) The treble pipes of the Mixtures are larger than normal and use slower progressions 4) Downes specified the construction details and voicing treatment of every pipe in the Royal Festival Hall organ 5) Working closely with the Harrison & Harrison voicers, he more or less supervised the entire voicing process IN THE HALL, which proved to be time-consuming, exact and very expensive. 6) The RFH organ successfully combines French style chorus reeds with Germanic style chorus registers....perhaps a first in UK organ-building. He even specified Rochessen made reeds for the pedal organ, which required further revoicing by Harrison & Harrison before they were musically acceptable. 7) The organ is virtually free of any nicking throughout, and the wind pressures are universally low.   Stephen points out, that although the hall is most unsuited to organ music (any music?), the effect of the organ is magnificent. (I would add, that down in the stalls, it is a quite different matter....the organ often sounding distant or ineffective as the soft furnishing gobble up the sound) Stephen Bicknell also makes a statement:- The RFH organ and that in the Brompton Oratory are both masterpieces!   I would further add, that Downes went to extraordinary lengths as a consultant, and nowhere more than at Paisley Abbey, where he was instrumental in rescuing the French character of a severly mangled Cavaille-Coll.   And now a testimony from Dennis Thurlow, the man who voiced the organ of the Brompton Oratory:-   "He (Downes) was a great man, who was fortunately recognised in his own time."   Finally, I would state this. If organ-builders spent half the time studying the art of pipe scaling and voicing as Downes did, we would all hear much better organs than we do.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- ------> > Alan Taylor wrote: > > "Downes was an amateur. He should never have been > given the responsibility > of the new organ at the RFH. I am sure there were > others, at the time, who > were qualified and would have made a better job of > it."       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: RE: Downes and the Royal Festival Hall From: "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:29:33 -0000   Sorry Colin, I think it is all tosh. You were correct in your first = opinion.   Alan London   Hello,   I feel that I must fly to the defence of the late Ralph Downes "heavyweight"......not least, because I more or less implied that the man was totally impractical when he advised about the restoration of the celebrated Schulze organ at St.Bart's, Armley, here in the UK.   Downes, as consultant, had put forward the proposal that the organ be exactly reconstructed as it was originally, complete with Barker-lever machinery etc.   This, I felt, was just too expensive to even contemplate, and evidence that Downes was not a pragmatist or even a man with much common sense. As a result, I entered into lively debate with Stephen Bicknell, and I utterly changed my views about Ralph Downes as a consequence....Stephen was right and I was very wrong, and happy to be proven so!   To quote Stephen, "Ralp Downes would have enjoyed the lively and often acrimonius debate.....he wanted people to think."   I have re-visited much of what Stephen wrote, and also the files I kept on the subject of Ralph Downes, and what follows is therefore based on many of the details which Stephen Bicknell wrote.   I recall a magnificent tribute to Ralph Downes which Stephen wrote:-   "Downes....... the finest organ builder in Britain of the period 1950 - 2000, even though he was an amateur."   Why should a highly respected historian and organ journalist/organ builder as Stephen Bicknell make such a statement?   In his own book "Baroque Tricks", Ralph Downes more or less admits that many of the early experiments with pipe-scales and voicing techniques were not always successful....a modest statement from the man who revolutionised British organ-building.   A few Stephen Bicknell "facts".....   1) Downes specified free, variable scaling 2) Downes was responsible for the introduction of wide scale flutes, mutations and upperwork into the UK 3) The treble pipes of the Mixtures are larger than normal and use slower progressions 4) Downes specified the construction details and voicing treatment of every pipe in the Royal Festival Hall organ 5) Working closely with the Harrison & Harrison voicers, he more or less supervised the entire voicing process IN THE HALL, which proved to be time-consuming, exact and very expensive. 6) The RFH organ successfully combines French style chorus reeds with Germanic style chorus registers....perhaps a first in UK organ-building. He even specified Rochessen made reeds for the pedal organ, which required further revoicing by Harrison & Harrison before they were musically acceptable. 7) The organ is virtually free of any nicking throughout, and the wind pressures are universally low.   Stephen points out, that although the hall is most unsuited to organ music (any music?), the effect of the organ is magnificent. (I would add, that down in the stalls, it is a quite different matter....the organ often sounding distant or ineffective as the soft furnishing gobble up the sound) Stephen Bicknell also makes a statement:- The RFH organ and that in the Brompton Oratory are both masterpieces!   I would further add, that Downes went to extraordinary lengths as a consultant, and nowhere more than at Paisley Abbey, where he was instrumental in rescuing the French character of a severly mangled Cavaille-Coll.   And now a testimony from Dennis Thurlow, the man who voiced the organ of the Brompton Oratory:-   "He (Downes) was a great man, who was fortunately recognised in his own time."   Finally, I would state this. If organ-builders spent half the time studying the art of pipe scaling and voicing as Downes did, we would all hear much better organs than we do.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- ------> > Alan Taylor wrote: > > "Downes was an amateur. He should never have been > given the responsibility > of the new organ at the RFH. I am sure there were > others, at the time, who > were qualified and would have made a better job of > it."       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>     -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.4 - Release Date: 15/12/2004   -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.5.4 - Release Date: 15/12/2004    
(back) Subject: RE: The softer side of organ music ... [Was: Willis ...] From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:20:53 +0800   "Recorded November 4-8, 1992 on the Jehmlich organ (1989) at the House of A= rts in Szeksz=E1rd, Hungary." Source: http://jsebestyen.org/   "Todd Wilson plays the 1961 Aeolian-Skinner enlarged to 4m, 96 ranks in 199= 1 in the Cathedral of St. Philip, Atlanta, displaying its wide panoply of t= onal colors in a mostly gentle program of lovely pieces." Source: OHS catalogue.   ----- Original Message ----- From: TheShieling <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: RE: The softer side of organ music ... [Was: Willis ...] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:05:37 +1300   > > Two of my favorite Organ CDs are "Organ Meditation (J=E1nos Sebesty=E9n= ) on the > Naxos label, and Todd Wilson's "In a Quiet Cathedral" on the Delos > International label. >=20 > Yes, I have that first also, and do enjoy it very much. Don't know the > second. Where is the Organ Meditation one played? Naxos are a good label,= in > my experience. >=20 > Ross   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: RE: Downes and the Royal Festival Hall From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:30:43 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   It doesn't matter what "name" we apply to organ-building, there will always be people who are extremely capable and those who are not, with a few falling somewhere in the middle.   "Fashion" is quite a different matter!   A "fashionable" organ-builder can often succeed commercially, yet remain an incompetent tonal artist. History is littered with the results.   One could even argue that, as a tonal artist involved in the manufacture of Theatre Organs, Compton wasn't in the same league as Wurlitzer; yet Wurlitzer could never achieve what Compton achieved in church organs. Horses for courses, I suppose.   Thinking in terms of "fashion", I can think of nothing less fashionable than the sounds of Hope-Jones, yet I have been impressed by the few examples of his pipework I have played upon. Henry Willis 4 also has a certain admiration for his voicing abilities, whilst Raplh Downes (I think at Gloucester, or was it Worcester?), always maintained that the best Diapason on the organ was the Hope Jones one.   As John Foss rightly points ut, where would we be now without the classical revival, which ISN'T about chiffs and snarls, but about tonal architecture and musical integrity.   Is that far removed from the Hill/Gauntlett experiments?   Isn't it close to the English heritage of Schmidt, Snetzler or even Dallam?   Sadly, it was the heavily romantic organ-builders who strayed so far away from organ integrity, and into the blind alley of "orchestralisation" (Is that a new word?), who lost sight of what an organ should be.   It was people like Forsyth-Grant, Ralph Downes, Dennis Thurlow....Larry Phelps and many of the American "names," who took the trouble to study history and the work of contemporary continental builders, who brought integrity back into organ design and execution.   Isn't this what Compton also achieved, with the most alien of means?   I just don't understand the hostility towards classical integrity, which has always been at the core of great organ-building, whether the name on the console is Schnitger, Muller, Hill, Willis,T C Lewis, Schulze, Fisk, Aeolian-Skinner or a relative unknown like Taylor of Leicester.   In other words, an organ requires a sense of tonal architecture and proportion.   The thing I fear in all this classical revival, is what happened after the true baroque period. I have NEVER heard modern neo-baroque reed stops which compare favourably to those on the old organs in Europe.   I rue the day when no-one will know how to make and voice a Skinner French Horn, a Willis Tuba or a Harrison Cor Anglais. These are voices which are as important to SOME of the organ repertoire as any Cornet or Trechtregal is in baroque repertoire.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- alan taylor1 <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> wrote:   > Sorry Colin, I think it is all tosh. You were > correct in your first opinion.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com