PipeChat Digest #5033 - Sunday, December 26, 2004
 
Re: Bridesdog- Revisited
  by "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net>
Philosophical Problem for Holy Name?
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name?
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name?
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Philosophical Problem for Holy Name?
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Fw: Bridesdog- Revisited
  by "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net>
Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name?
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
Re: Bridesdog
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Wedding Music for dogs
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
RE: Philosophical Problem for Holy Name?
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
Re: Wedding Music for dogs
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
RE: Wedding Music for dogs
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
RC churches in Washington DC
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: RC churches in Washington DC
  by "Milo R. Shepherd" <mrstwin2@rubberandsteel.com>
Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name?
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: HOLY NAME in Chicago
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
diane bish tapes
  by "wesley" <wcool@bellsouth.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Bridesdog- Revisited From: "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 08:25:44 -0600   All, I am appalled that the supposedly Sacred rite of Matrimony has been = lowered this far....actually I really am not surprised. It is no wonder the = divorce rate is so high when we hold the original covenant in such disregard. Berley Antoine Firmin II      
(back) Subject: Philosophical Problem for Holy Name? From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:16:58 -0600   Good Morning, PipeChatters:   > As someone has already stated, the biggest problem is the room.   * * *   > Regarding the organs, as much as I respect Proulx, I have no insights as > to why they are what they are. The Flentrop has some "organic" problems > such as the case being so deep that sounds do not project into the > already hampered nave. It is very nice up close, but not impressive > in the nave. Why Flentrop agreed to the design of the instrument is a > quandary.   My question is, if the "problems" are so intuitively obvious, how does the "management" of a Cathederal go about implementing corrective action? Or is the problem so embedded in the social infrastructure of the management that it is never corrected, until some time much later when the "management" changes, and change is dictated as "necessary" for continued effort on behalf of the Church by the new "management?"   Curious. I am not Catholic, and my years of experience on the periphery of the Catholic Church leaves me with only glimpses of actions that suggest how some things get done.   Or, is it the curse of having to play through a problematic organ setup with bad acsoustics part of the Purgatory payout for those who pushed the Church into a situation such as has been described for Holy Name Cathedral?   Would like to know more about how these things are done, why, and what portentions lie for this church in the future.   Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt     ..      
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name? From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:37:01 EST   The problem is likely NOT philosophical, but educational.   What may have BEGUN as as philosophical issue ("the only good organ is a mechanical action organ," or "both organs must be imported, because = Americans cannot build real organs," or "'real' organs are pseudo-'Baroque'") = involved a campaign on the part of the musicians to get what they wanted. The chances = of re-re-educating administration are less than unlikely.   Holy Name spent a great deal of money on choices that many people find appalling, from the hideous front doors, to the carpeting, to a pair of = unlikely organs. Keep in mind that since most people do not care about the organ, = they are not listening critically. If it makes sound during Mass (often far too = much sound for the over-sensitive listener), it is working well, and of high quality, and needs neither maintenance, nor rebuilding, nor tuning, nor = replacement.   I would bet that a lot of arm-twisting and tooth-pulling went into the commissioning of the Flentrop. While I found the instrument to be = disappointing as both a builder and an organist, those on the music stafff with whom I = spoke had nothing but grand things to say about it. This may have been psychological =   self-preservation, or they may have really, truly liked it.   The failure of "absolutes" is a VERY emotional subject for those with blinders. If a mechanical-action import is believed to be the answer to = all musical challenges as well as needs, then when a staggering sum is spent after an exhausting effort to achieve that dream, and the results are well below = par, the defense mechanism shifts into high gear.   One need only look at various chat lists to see that there are some who believe that Flentrop was (and is) the greatest builder of all time. Those = who have had to tune Flentrops and have encountered pipes so poorly voiced that = they do not develop speech, and so crowded as to be untunable, can do without = the fact that each pipe sounds as if it came from a different rank. = Organbuilders, serious musicians, and armchair organists all listen to organs on varying critical levels with dissimilar criteria mixed in to each opinion.   Keep in mind that many peoples' views of Flentrop's work come from recordings, which burn into our emotional memory some very strong = associations that have little to do with the final execution of the product. Rather, we were = taken with the concept, the freshness of the approach, and the underlying = search for a good organ, filtered through what we now know to be somewhat = manufactured recording session circumstances. Obviously, it was easier to convince the authorities to commission a huge Flentrop than it was to explain that = Christian worship was conducted in uncarpeted rooms for two thousand years, and = managed just fine...   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..  
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name? From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:31:06 -0600   Hi, Seb: Thanks for your insights. I am reminded of a story from a distant part of the U.S.A. A friend of mine received a call from a Parish Priest, and his call was characterized by "ranting and raving." When my friend calmed the caller down enough to ask some questions, the Priest finally asked, "Can you put a govenor on her?' It was the first intelligent bit of exchange. "Her what?" The Priest said, "It's way too loud, and the people are leaving he Parish." "What is 'IT?' " "The new organ," was the reply. "Can you make it quiet enough that the people don't rush away from it?" My friend agreed to go to the Parish Church and meet with the Priest. When he arrived, the Priest pointed to the balcony, where a beautiful mechanical action organ was installed. Upon examination, the organ revealed about 19 or 20 stops, . . . but there was not a single soft stop on the organ. It built up a fairly loud, incisive ensemble at full organ. After playing it at full organ for a stanza of a demo hymn, the Priest, again, said, "That's what I have to get rid of." Then, in a more respectable tone of voice, he expalined that about half of the congregation had elected to attend other parishes since this new organ was installed, and, when contacted about their absence, they explained that they did not like that "awful noise" coming from the organ. The young man who played the services was the one who guided the church into the purchase, so he felt it was his responsibility to demonstrate its power every time it was played, to the great annoyance of the people. They demonstrated their dislike by moving to other parishes. The Priest was threatened by the change in their loyalties, and sought alternatives from my friend. This was a sizable investment, so my friend offered an alternative. First, do away with the young man who did not yet know how to play for a worship service. That was done. Then, a secondary E-org was temporarily installed near the altar, and it was regulated for softer musical expressions, with the understanding that IF a really loud setting was needed, the organist could play the balcony organ.   With those two changes in place, the people started to return to their local Parish Church, and the Priest could see the progresss in attendance from week to week. He was, then, satisfied with the results. I suppose the "loud" organ is still there, and is still playable, but the young man who did not know that his playing was the source of great discontentment had to be removed to quell the rebellion of the congregants. This is, perhaps, a story about "management" taking over the total responsibility and doing what was needed to provide worship music that was acceptable to the congregants. I also suppose that, if the congregants had continued to leave, the Diocease would have initiated corrective action on the Priest, as the offerings and other resources were out of control. Which may explain some very basic facts of life when a church has to continue what it does to bring in the offerings, adequate to pay the bills. I would hope that for long-established churches, like Holy Name, such aggressive corrective action would not be needed, . . . at least as long as the offerings were sustained to at least pay the bills. Seb, the obvious corrective action that seemed to be omitted by the young man who played it lourly all of the time, was the use of only one or two stops now and then, smaller ensembles, etc. I also suppose the Priest did not presume to tell the young man "how" to register the organ. Which begs another, whole different subject for discussion. F. Richard Burt ..    
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophical Problem for Holy Name? From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 11:38:27 EST   When we could receive Michael Barone's program here in Los Angeles He showcased the dedication recital on the Holy Name Flentrop. I knew there were terrible problems with this new installation. The organ teetered on the edge of disaster all night. During the recent Midnight Mass, the organist, registrant chose the strangest stops to use, the voicing rough and uneven came through loud and clear even with the bad audio. I have never heard an organ I disliked more than this one. Any American Organ builder could have done a much better job. This is by far the most miserable, "expensive draft" ever built. It = certainly doesn't in anyway reflect Dirk Flentrop's St. Mark's Cathedral organ in Seattle. Of course the Seattle organ has been reworked several times after installation, stops added and action changes, but at the very least gives a much more musical organ than at Holy Name. It broaches the question, What in heck were they thinking when they designed and built this monstrosity? Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Fw: Bridesdog- Revisited From: "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 10:48:23 -0600   Merry Christmas everyone, I thought you all would like to see this response, the day after = Christmas, no less. I tried simply to address him off list, but he is blocking me! = What a coward. Was I that out of line in my original post? Berley           ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew N. Chegezy" <mcheg101@comcast.net> To: "firman1" <firman1@prodigy.net> Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:24 AM Subject: Re: Bridesdog- Revisited     > GET OVER YOURSELF, A**HOLE!! Who are you kidding? Having a dog present > at a marriage ceremony ruins your idea of a "Sacred rite of Matrimony"? > > See you in hell... > > > > On Dec 26, 2004, at 9:25 AM, firman1 wrote: > > > All, > > I am appalled that the supposedly Sacred rite of Matrimony has been > > lowered > > this far....actually I really am not surprised. It is no wonder the > > divorce > > rate is so high when we hold the original covenant in such disregard. > > Berley Antoine Firmin II > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name? From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 09:22:55 -0800 (PST)   Greetings to all!   Item one:   One of my alma maters is a church related college whose chapel is shared with the local congregation of that same denomination... Formerly there was a Moller organ of about 8 ranks... When money was made available from the donations of two families (plus other donators) another organ by another builder was installed... 30 plus ranks...   At my request, the organist who became organist when I found out about the new organ and inquired about the organ graciously e-mailed me the specification... (The organ was installed, by the way, before that organist became organist...)   We had some nice correspondence, and he kindly answered some questions I raised... In one e-mail to him I noted that it seemed that, ahem, there wasn't really a soft stop per se... suitable for playing, for example, when the congregation came forth to take communion... No Dulciana, no Unda Maris... Yes, there was a Swell Celeste which worked in cooperation with the Viola Pomposa... There was a flute 8' on the Choir... but it wasn't soft... The organist readily admitted that I was correct... and that it make life a bit difficult at communion time...   Item two:   A high school teacher (the only teacher, as far as I know, in our school system with a doctorate when I was in high school) who taught me Psychology and the State and Local part of U. S. Government used to attend a church... But she stopped attending. Why? She said that no matter where she sat in the church (and yes, it is a nice, small gothic-like inspiring place of worship) the organ was too loud... She stated that "it is like a circus in there..."   I then asked one of my friends (who at one time tuned the organ and thus was familiar with it) about the organ... I had seen the stop specification in the AGO magazine, and yes, that organ didn't seem to have many, if any soft stops... no Dulciana, no Unda Maris... yes, it did have a Celeste which I think drew with a medium loud 8' string... I am not sure just "who" the organist was when this particular instrument was contracted for... It has 30+ ranks... maybe even 40....   Item three:   In my home town there is a tracker organ (built I guess in the early 1980s) whose swell shades do not close all the way... This organ too doesn't have any really quiet stop to play during communion as the congregation comes up to take communion... It "would" have been perhaps passably OK if the builder had built the shades so that they could be closed all the way... Yes, there is no Dulciana or Unda Maris... And the Swell Flute 8' isn't soft, because the Swell shades do not close all the way...   A suggestion: If at all possible, have at least one rather soft sweet sounding rank that you can draw (perhaps with a properly regulated tremelo) when people take communion... either kneeling or at their seats, depending on the denomination...   By following this suggestion the organ hopefully won't be accused of driving people away from a parish... perhaps a person (or people) will... but at least the organ won't be guilty of doing so...   Seasons greetings to all!   Morton Belcher fellow list member...     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250  
(back) Subject: Re: Bridesdog From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:26:20 -0600   We had a Golden Lab ringbearer a few months ago. Did extremely well=20 too, better than many of the small children usually enlisted for the=20 job!   Merry Christmas, All Russ Greene     On Dec 25, 2004, at 5:51 PM, John L. Speller wrote:   > =A0 > However, it is the bit about having a dog as one's bridesmaid that=20 > really gets me.=A0 Has anyone else come across this practice?=A0 Would = one=20 > use any special music in such cases?=  
(back) Subject: Wedding Music for dogs From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:33:50 -0600   I can only think of "How Much is that Doggie in the Window?" but Jan's reference to Fur Elise reminded me that there is a wonderful jazz version called "Furry Lisa," which would be suitable. Or how about "Barkarolle"?     Dennis Steckley   "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss        
(back) Subject: RE: Philosophical Problem for Holy Name? From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:48:21 -0600   Not sure about the Casavant but the Flentrop was an outright gift.   If someone wants to come forward with a similar gift to fix the room, I would guess that the Cathedral will accept it.   In the absence of such a gift, I doubt if anything will change as the only people who care about the sound probably don't contribute to the church.   Blunt? Yes.   True?? Perhaps.   Michael     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of F. Richard Burt Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 9:17 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Philosophical Problem for Holy Name?   Good Morning, PipeChatters:   > As someone has already stated, the biggest problem is the room.   * * *   > Regarding the organs, as much as I respect Proulx, I have no insights as > to why they are what they are. The Flentrop has some "organic" problems > such as the case being so deep that sounds do not project into the > already hampered nave. It is very nice up close, but not impressive > in the nave. Why Flentrop agreed to the design of the instrument is a > quandary.   My question is, if the "problems" are so intuitively obvious, how does the "management" of a Cathederal go about implementing corrective action? Or is the problem so embedded in the social infrastructure of the management that it is never corrected, until some time much later when the "management" changes, and change is dictated as "necessary" for continued effort on behalf of the Church by the new "management?"   <lots-o-snipping>      
(back) Subject: Re: Wedding Music for dogs From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:59:54 EST     In a message dated 12/26/04 1:29:55 PM, kzrev@rr1.net writes:     > I can only think of "How Much is that Doggie in the Window?" but Jan's > reference to Fur Elise reminded me that there is a wonderful jazz > version called "Furry Lisa," which would be suitable.=A0 Or how about > "Barkarolle"? >=20 >=20 > Dennis Steckley >=20 > "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss >=20 >=20   If there were canned music and they liked jazz, they could play Miles Davis'= =20 Bitche's Brew. -har har har. gfc       Gregory Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net  
(back) Subject: RE: Wedding Music for dogs From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:11:51 -0600   What's wrong with a dog in the wedding party? I've seen several, including the bride/groom. I'd even rather hear a dog sing than some soloists.     Glenda Sutton   gksjd85@direcway.com        
(back) Subject: RC churches in Washington DC From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:58:08 +0000   On 12/26/04 2:36 AM, "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> wrote:   > Christmas Mass at the National RC Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception = (or > whatever it is called)   Well, it's by NO means important, but I think their cathedral in the Capito= l City is St. Matthew's. Whence JFK was buried. The =B3other one=B2 is, I think= , the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. Very likely the larger of the two= ..   Of which the story is told that (in the 1970s, when it was new) a pious Italian lady entered, knelt in an obscure pew, and prayed. And was rewarde= d by a visitation from the BVM HerSelf. Lady looked up, and asked, =B3What can I do for you, Blessed Mother?=B2 BVM replied: =B3I should like for you to build for me, in this place, a beautiful church.=B2   End of story. =20   Alan  
(back) Subject: RE: RC churches in Washington DC From: "Milo R. Shepherd" <mrstwin2@rubberandsteel.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 18:50:54 -0500   RC churches in Washington DCIts actually called "The Basillica of the = Shrine of the Immaculate Conception"   Milo Resident of the Washington DC Metro area   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Alan Freed Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:58 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RC churches in Washington DC     On 12/26/04 2:36 AM, "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> wrote:   > Christmas Mass at the National RC Cathedral of the Immaculate = Conception (or > whatever it is called)   Well, it's by NO means important, but I think their cathedral in the Capitol City is St. Matthew's. Whence JFK was buried. The =93other = one=94 is, I think, the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. Very likely the larger = of the two.   Of which the story is told that (in the 1970s, when it was new) a pious Italian lady entered, knelt in an obscure pew, and prayed. And was = rewarded by a visitation from the BVM HerSelf. Lady looked up, and asked, =93What = can I do for you, Blessed Mother?=94 BVM replied: =93I should like for you = to build for me, in this place, a beautiful church.=94   End of story.   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 15:59:42 -0800 (PST)       TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: The problem is likely NOT philosophical, but educational.   What may have BEGUN as as philosophical issue ("the only good organ is a mechanical action organ," or "both organs must be imported, because = Americans cannot build real organs," or "'real' organs are pseudo-'Baroque'") = involved a campaign on the part of the musicians to get what they wanted. The chances = of re-re-educating administration are less than unlikely.     From TDH: Seb. makes a point here that reminds me of the article that Bynum Petty = wrote of Joyce Jones sometime in the last year or so. Joyce Jones made a = comment that "...Europeans don't necesarily build better organs, they just = have better rooms." or something of that nature.   This leaves a lot open for discussion. While there are a few European = builders that i really enjoy, there are still quite a few good builders on = the homeland.   TDH     --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
(back) Subject: Re: HOLY NAME in Chicago From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:22:12 -0800 (PST)   The Flentrop at Seattle is much more fun to listen to. it is also fun to = play. Terry mentioned the depth of the case at HNC. Compared to Seattle, = its about twice if not three times, as deep. And it takes time to = manipulate, having no combination action. I hear the Durufle Veni Creator = Finale done at HNC, with good changes in stops, but still weak in sound. = BUT...the organist there is very well acquainted with the organ and what = to do with it.     --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! =96 Get yours free!
(back) Subject: diane bish tapes From: "wesley" <wcool@bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 19:45:05 -0500   Does anybody know if the Diane Bish tapes: Military(hour and a half), and favorite hymns(one hour) are good? They seem kind of expensive..