PipeChat Digest #5036 - Monday, December 27, 2004
 
Re: Blaming rooms
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
RE: Philosophical/Educational ..B all or END all.
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: NEW Phantom of the Opera
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Are we blaming rooms too much?
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Blaming rooms
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Are we blaming rooms too much?
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Marcel at the movies
  by "Mark Gustus" <mgustus@msn.com>
Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name?
  by "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com>
Re: Marcel at the movies
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Warranty
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Dogs in church
  by "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com>
Re: Blaming rooms
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
RE: Holy Name or Holy Wind?
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Blaming rooms
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
RE: Philosophical/Educational ..B all or END all.
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name?
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
knee-jerk, formulaic "softness"
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: Philosophical/Educational ..B all or END all.
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Blaming rooms From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:59:11 -0500   I had just sent this to another list, but it's germane to this discussion. Here is a perfectly blameworthy room!     >> I think I've found the ultimate in carpeted rooms. The former Methodist >> Church in Pittsford, VT, which closed just as I moved to the area = (after >> which, the minister, who said she had been reading a lot in the Old >> Testament, converted to Judaism), is now a carpet shop. The entire = floor >> area is covered with nice Oriental rugs about 5 deep, and more are hung >> on every available bit of wall space! Needless to say, what was = probably >> a nice resonant room for its size is now an acoustic black hole. The = new >> owners were thrilled to have someone show an interest in the organ, but >> asked if that was as loud as it got! >> >> Besides the acoustic, some wind leaks in the wooden ducts, and a need >> for a good tuning, the organ is in decent shape- just difficult to = hear. >> >> It doesn't have a nameplate, and I've misplaced my OHS list of extant >> organs. Does anyone have info on the builder, etc? >> >> The spec is: >> >> Great C-f''' >> >> Double Gamba from g >> Open Diapason >> Stop Diapason Bass >> Hohl Flute Treble >> Dulciana >> Octave >> Flute >> Twelfth >> Fifteenth >> >> Swell >> >> Open Diapason >> Stop Diapason B/T >> Viola >> Salicional >> Flute Harmonique >> Violina >> >> Pedal C-c' >> >> Bourdon >> Violincello >> >> Great to Swell >> Pedals to Great >> Pedals to Swell >> (sic) >> >> Quite the interesting range of strings, for a small tracker! >> >> Interestingly, each of the Swell 8's has its own independent stopped = bass. >> >> Paul Opel >>   http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: RE: Philosophical/Educational ..B all or END all. From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:06:55 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Sorry Ross, you are very, very wrong.   Good acoustics (whatever that means) are very DIFFICULT to obtain in new buildings using fire-retardant materials, concrete, glass walls, poly-foams, plastics, fibre-boards etc etc.   God alone would be the only answer if the clergy got involved!!   Beware the man who wears a dog-collar and organ-shoes. I've only met three. The first was a lousy vicar, the second was a lousy organist, and the third packed up both and went to work in insurance.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   PS: Ross is a fine chap, even if he terrorises his organ tuner..       --- TheShieling <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote:   > I'm sorry, but that attitude just isn't good enough. > Good acoustics are easy > to obtain and to suggest hit-and-miss is scientific > nonsense.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: Re: NEW Phantom of the Opera From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:13:32 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Re: Silent film accompaniment   Andreas may find the following URL's quite interesting; especially the last one.   http://www.portlandphoenix.com/music/other_stories/documents/04210272.asp   http://www.americansymphony.org/dialogues_extensions/93_94season/2nd_concer= t/theater.cfm   http://www.mikeschiffer.com/index.php?customernumber=3D389501497116820&pr= =3DSilent_Film_Scores&=3DSID   http://www.lostprovince.com/PTOS/the_theatre_organ.html --- atal <atal@sympatico.ca> wrote:     Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Are we blaming rooms too much? From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:34:42 -0600   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 10:48 AM Subject: Re: Are we blaming rooms too much?     > One should ALWAYS blame the organ-builder   Perhaps one should. Designing an organ that sounds good in a non-reverberant room is not exactly rocket science. It simply involves boosting the scales and voicing of the lower-pitched ranks. Nineteenth-century builders like Hook & Hastings knew how to do this, and the best organbuilders today do too. The worst thing you can do is to = have lots of bright reeds and screechy mixtures, with no beef in the bass, = which is exactly what the fashion was in the 1960's. And it was also the = fashion of the 1960's to kill the acoustics. This is why we have a legacy from = that period of so many dreadful sounding organs, and it is one reason why the organ has fallen into such disrepute with the public. The public know = what they like. I know of an organist who has on his instrument a very bright = en chamade Trompette and a very rich Tuba. When he puts on the en chamade he gets complaints from the congregation that he is playing too loud. On the other hand the congregation cannot get enough of the Tuba. Curiously, if one uses a decibel meter one finds that the Tuba is a lot louder than the = en chamade!   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: Blaming rooms From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:45:07 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Blaming rooms     > >> It doesn't have a nameplate, and I've misplaced my OHS list of extant > >> organs. Does anyone have info on the builder, etc?   I'm glad to say I haven't misplaced mine which, considering the general state of our house, is little short of miraculous. It says that this is thought to be a Stevens organ of c. 1845, which was rebuilt in the 1890's. It was originally in Park Street Congregational Church, Springfield, MA, = and was moved to Grace UMC in Pittsfield, VT, in 1930.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: Are we blaming rooms too much? From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 09:58:22 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Exactly John.....dBA in a nutshell.....or "what sort of a noise annoys an oyster?"   A pearl of wisdom by another name!   However, I still think that many new buildings to-day present very different problems to the relatively simple one of appropriate bass scaling. What we "hear" is often an "engineered" and "unnatural" resonance.   Most of us can walk into a building and KNOW what sound the building supports, but just try getting there with modern material science and an architects penchant for "engineered aural environements".   Funny think isn't it? In the vast resonance of St.Paul's, a whispered phrase carries perfectly from one side of the dome to the other.   I guess the classical style has yet to be improved upon, but they're difficult to heat and marble is such a cold material.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> wrote:   Designing an organ that sounds > good in a > non-reverberant room is not exactly rocket science. > It simply involves > boosting the scales and voicing of the lower-pitched > ranks.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250  
(back) Subject: Marcel at the movies From: "Mark Gustus" <mgustus@msn.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:22:50 -0600   Hello Chatters,   Talking about silent film accompaniments, did anyone see TCM's recent = airing of Buster Keaton's "The Cameraman?" It has a new score that includes an electronic rendition of Dupre's Prelude and Fugue in g minor, Op. 7. Actually, as presented, it's the Fugue and Prelude. Credit for composing this "new" score is claimed by one Arthur Barrow.   http://www.planetzappa.com/articles/arthur/article.html   Good grief!   -Mark Gustus      
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name? From: "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:31:59 -0600   Morton Belcher wrote:   > A suggestion: If at all possible, have at least one > rather soft sweet sounding rank that you can draw > (perhaps with a properly regulated tremelo) when > people take communion... either kneeling or at their > seats, depending on the denomination... >   While such a suggestion made with all good intentions by the writer is appropriate to many situations, some congregations do not require "sonorous incense" to encourage individual meditation while partaking in what is, at least by its name, a communal event. Many congregations prefer congregational singing while joining together in communion and still others prefer joyous music rather than "celestial whispers." In any event, if quietness is what is required, the most effective and obvious choice would be silence. There are those among us who believe that the organ should provide a sound canvas -- present but unobtrusive (and essentially unheard with the conscious mind) behind the acts of worship, as if the acts themselves were not enough; like the background score to a movie. Still others prefer that sounds from the musicians cover the ordinary sounds which accompany the presence of a congregation: footfalls, whispers, coughing, breathing, etc.. Here in the North, the sound of forced-air heating is usually enough to take care of that need -- unless the heating itself is what you wish to cover.   Regardless of your emotional or theological bent concerning the environment of worship, the point is -- if you want silence, have silence. If you want music, have music. Don't confuse the two. To do so demeans both the silence and the music.   Before I don my flame-retardant suit let me say that I am not a hardliner who insists that music must always serve "artistic" purposes only and never be used in "utilitarian" ways. Music can be used in utilitarian ways to accomplish super-utilitarian goals. For example, I do play a short musical sentence at the point when the children of the Sunday School are dismissed from the Nave. It is, however, always used with a cognitive goal in mind as well as a utilitarian one. It is always loud enough to be clearly heard and always carries a theme related to the day or to point up some part of the service. Sometimes a repetition a portion of the opening hymn (or another familiar hymn) serves to point up the themes contained in the hymn, for example. When we need silence -- we have silence. This approach differs from the all-too-common aimless meandering on the Unda Maris which often takes place when no music is needed anyway. I'm sure there are some here who will not see my distinction, but others, I hope will.   In the end, there should be some kind of musical reason for the inclusion of an almost inaudible stop in any stoplist, especially in a small one where every stop must count for something. In most congregations, I cannot see the need for such a stop in an instrument of under 20-or-so stops.   Sorry Morton, we'll have to agree to disagree. Larry Wheelock Director of Music Ministries Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, Wisconsin musicdirector@kenwood-umc.org
(back) Subject: Re: Marcel at the movies From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:33:02 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   That's OK....Dupre played a cinema organ in Paris for a short while.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- Mark Gustus <mgustus@msn.com> wrote:   > Hello Chatters, > > Talking about silent film accompaniments, did anyone > see TCM's recent airing > of Buster Keaton's "The Cameraman?" It has a new > score that includes an > electronic rendition of Dupre's Prelude and Fugue in > g minor, Op. 7.     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Warranty From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:43:58 -0500   At 12:09 AM 2004-12-27, you wrote: >Hello, Robian: > > > Does Ahlborn-Galanti, of Italy, offer a factory warranty to >would-be > > purchasers throughout the world? > >Do not know. Have nothing to do with Ahlborn-Gallanti. > > > Likewise Johannus, etc? > >All Johannus organs are warranted for 10 years in the U.S.A. >by the factory from the date of manufacture. > >F. Richard Burt   Richard,   What you don't say is what is covered, and by whom.   Generally there is a warranty on electronic parts, a different warranty on =   workmanship, a different one on labour, etc.   And warranties could be between 3 different entities, the manufacturer, = the distributor (if there is one), and the dealer (again, if there is one).   Generally the factory or the distributor will warranty workmanship for a period of 1 or 2 years, electronic parts for 10 years, and the dealer will =   cover the rest. So if a dealer sells an organ and says, I warranty the organ for 10 years parts and labour including travels costs and travel time, that means the organ should not cost the purchaser anymore than just =   the electricity to run the instrument.   So I always consider the strength of the warranty to be with the dealer. Once the dealer is out of the picture, I seriously doubt that the =   next dealer (if there is one), or the manufacturer will actually send out = a service person to fix the instrument, especially if the instrument is half =   way round the globe.   Arie V.      
(back) Subject: Dogs in church From: "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:50:06 -0600   When I served St. Michael's Lutheran Church, Germantown (Philadelphia) a decade or so ago, there were 2 guide-dogs in my choir, and more in the congregation when our sightless members brought friends. Processions were always accompanied by the tinkling of tags and chains on dog-collars (a sound which my subconscious mind associates with good procession to this day.) While this is a rather different story to having a dog as a wedding attendant, some of the practical aspects are common to both.   There was, for example, the time when "Winnie" (guide-dog to one of my Sopranos) fell asleep during the sermon and slipped off the choir riser (a fall of only about eight inches) and squealed, waking in a panic, complete with all the shaking and sneezing and tinkling of chains that accompanies a dog startled. It brought the sermon to a halt until everyone was assured that "Winnie" was OK, then laughter ensued. The pastor later admitted she was relieved that her sermon had only put a dog to sleep and that it had not been a parishoner falling off a pew in sleep. Actually she was quite a good preacher. I've experienced some sermons which almost had me falling off the organ bench in a stupor, but that's a different thread entirely.   Then there was the time in rehearsal when I instructed the choir to "sit, " apparently in a commanding voice, and both guide-dogs scrambled to obey my command immediately, causing the choir to accuse me of treating them like dogs...   Never a dull moment.     Larry Wheelock Director of Music Ministries Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, Wisconsin musicdirector@kenwood-umc.org
(back) Subject: Re: Blaming rooms From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:15:50 -0500   Just to be sure- is that Pittsfield, or Pittsford? The two towns are about 15 miles apart!   Paul   >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> >To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:59 AM >Subject: Re: Blaming rooms > > >> >> It doesn't have a nameplate, and I've misplaced my OHS list of = extant >> >> organs. Does anyone have info on the builder, etc? > >I'm glad to say I haven't misplaced mine which, considering the general >state of our house, is little short of miraculous. It says that this is >thought to be a Stevens organ of c. 1845, which was rebuilt in the = 1890's. >It was originally in Park Street Congregational Church, Springfield, MA, = and >was moved to Grace UMC in Pittsfield, VT, in 1930. > >John Speller > > > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>     http://www.sover.net/~popel/agomain.html      
(back) Subject: RE: Holy Name or Holy Wind? From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:30:37 +1300     >I thought ALL churches planned for wind-bags!   Some of them do, anyway, but to the great shock of their people some = clergy turn out to be worthwhile. :-)   And many organists, conversely, always play - that's why a lot of them aren't taken seriously. :-)   Ross        
(back) Subject: Re: Blaming rooms From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:41:55 -0600   Pittsford. There is nothing listed for Pittsfield.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Blaming rooms     > Just to be sure- is that Pittsfield, or Pittsford? The two towns are = about > 15 miles apart! > > Paul > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> > >To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> > >Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:59 AM > >Subject: Re: Blaming rooms > > > > > >> >> It doesn't have a nameplate, and I've misplaced my OHS list of extant > >> >> organs. Does anyone have info on the builder, etc? > > > >I'm glad to say I haven't misplaced mine which, considering the general > >state of our house, is little short of miraculous. It says that this = is > >thought to be a Stevens organ of c. 1845, which was rebuilt in the 1890's. > >It was originally in Park Street Congregational Church, Springfield, = MA, and > >was moved to Grace UMC in Pittsfield, VT, in 1930. > > > >John Speller      
(back) Subject: RE: Philosophical/Educational ..B all or END all. From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:46:28 +1300   >Sorry Ross, you are very, very wrong.   >Good acoustics (whatever that means) are very DIFFICULT to obtain in new buildings using fire-retardant materials, concrete, glass walls, poly-foams, plastics, fibre-boards etc etc.   No, I am most decidedly not very, very wrong. My statement was that good acoustics are easy to obtain. I did NOT say "when using" the stuff you mention. Beginning from scratch, good acoustics ARE dead easy. If you want to specify utterly-bloody-silly materials like poly-foams, plastics, fibre-boards, carpets, drapes, and the whole damned caboodle, I'd agree = with you, but I did not suggest any such use. For me, as a clergyman (and thus public speaker as well as organist) I'd fight like hell against such materials for any purpose whatever. They don't look right, don't last, and only destroy sound.   >God alone would be the only answer if the clergy got involved!!   That would depend entirely on the clergy. Some of us actually do not know what we're talking about. I can think of a church here at the moment that has a 3m organ of about 35 stops, of good "eclectic" design and tone and = in very good order, which the organists are trying to have removed in favour = of a 3m Rodgers electronic. It's me, a clergyman, who is trying to stop this happening. I'm playing for a service there on 23 January and will further push the cause to retain the pipe organ: in a 500-seat church, by the way.   >Beware the man who wears a dog-collar and organ-shoes. I've only met three. The first was a lousy vicar, the second was a lousy organist, and the third packed up both and went to work in insurance.   Sorry, Colin, but you've also met me, so I wonder which of the three you categorise me as being? I regard myself as both dog-collar and = organ-shoes: sang in the cathedral choir for some years, was Assistant Organist there, and even now in retirement play regularly for services wherever asked, yet I've also been a priest for 27 years and have been Vicar of three = parishes. I've also been the only clergyman ever associated with the Wellington Organists' Association, and served three terms as President, one as Secretary, and untold years on the committee.   Sorry to sound angry, but I am. The easy lump-them-altogether thing just isn't good enough and does not encourage things. I can think of another church, where just very recently the organist wanted a 2m electronic, of = not very good make, and it was the Vicar who succeeded in persuading the = Vestry to buy a large 3-manual. This, by the way, for a large church, and the installation was as good as could be for such an instrument.   >PS: Ross is a fine chap, even if he terrorises his organ tuner..   Oh, Colin, and so are you, even if you do not terrorise the organ tuner. ;-)   So are they all, all honourable men.   I'll therefore repeat my question: how many organists actually take an active part in trying to educate seminarians and clergy? If you don't do this, expect, and get, the worst.   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: Philosophical/Educational Problem for Holy Name? From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:52:41 +1300   >A suggestion: If at all possible, have at least one rather soft sweet sounding rank that you can draw (perhaps with a properly regulated tremelo) when people take communion   For my part, I'd rather have total silence any day than a Tremulant effect or a Celeste during communion. Play softly, by all means, but there is = much great simple music that you wreck completely if you undulate the stuff.   Ross              
(back) Subject: knee-jerk, formulaic "softness" From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:05:50 EST   I am baffled that Americans think that the only soft stops in the = organ have to be a pair of Erzahleren or a pair of (so-called) Dulcianas, with = one out of phase. A "soft or gentle stop" does NOT have to mean a = "watered-down, neutral undulant." Look at the specifications of Bach's era, in which there were many handfuls of 8' voices, which included stops such as Viola da Gamba, = Gemshorn, Quintadena, all of intense color but lower in amplitude. The number of = gently voiced, open wood flutes during the period would quietly silence those who = insist that Melodias and Concert Flutes have no antecedents in the Baroque = spectrum. I know from very recent experience that even a six-rank instrument = with no expression enclosure can play very, very softly in a room seating only = fifty people. If you want a Dulciana in your instrument, don't necessarily base it = upon those examples by American factory builders of the last century, as you = may find them lacking in character, intensity, and musicality. It would = really, truly surprise most modern organists to find out that Snetzler's early = Dulcianas were built with flared pipes... Genuine Dulcianas can be warm, incisive, intense, and lively -- and still give them impression of being "soft" = stops. If properly voiced, they need not have an undulant paired with them to make = them "hug" the listener.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/alexander/alexander.html   ..  
(back) Subject: RE: Philosophical/Educational ..B all or END all. From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 12:36:39 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Oh dear! Ross is poly-foaming!   I sat down afterwards......on the sofa....I don't stand to attention when surfing......and thought, "I bet Ross thinks he's one of the three."   Starting all over again......   I have met four organist/clergymen, of whom, three....etc.etc.   Ross is right about lumping people together.....I repent....but aren't "happy clappy vicars", "born again Christians", "acousticians" and "foreign organ builders" such useful scapegoats when things go wrong?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- TheShieling <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote:   > If you want > to specify utterly-bloody-silly materials like > poly-foams, plastics, > fibre-boards, carpets, drapes, and the whole damned > caboodle, I'd agree with > you     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo