PipeChat Digest #5041 - Wednesday, December 29, 2004
Re: Philosophy of organ learning
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Call for Ceaseless Prayers of Intercession
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Call for Ceaseless Prayers of Intercession
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Colin's remarks and Eddie Layton
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Bad Kids
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Carpeting vs tile
  by "Ned Benson" <nbenson@stjohnschurch.org>
Re: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces)
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
RE: He that hath ears to hear ...very long (kind of interesting)
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Home organs
  by "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net>
Re: Eddie Layton, Yankee Stadium organist passes
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
RE: Eddie Layton, Yankee Stadium organist passes
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Tonal Finishing
  by "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
Re: Call for Ceaseless Prayers of Intercession
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: Philosophy of organ learning
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
RE: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces)
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>

(back) Subject: Re: Philosophy of organ learning From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:29:39 +0000   On 12/29/04 12:12 AM, "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote= :   > The _only_ reason being that I find it the most joyful thing to do on ear= th. > Yes, I know my head isn't really properly assembled, but I've got to have= a > point!   Jarle: You are a wonderful delight, a prize, and an absolute wonder. And your head is VERY =B3properly assembled=B2! (In USAese, we say =B3screwed on right.=B2) =20   There's an old French expression: "If only youth knew. If only age could.= " I do not want your "age" to be delayed. But I hope it does not change your tastes. Much less erase your youth.   You just remain who you ARE, at every age. Three CHEERS for [your] =B3enthusiasm.=B2   Alan              
(back) Subject: Re: Call for Ceaseless Prayers of Intercession From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:34:33 EST   In a message dated 12/28/2004 9:19:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ProOrgo53@aol.com writes:   > We simply cannot continue, as though nothing unusual has happened on = planet > Earth, belaboring in discussions about carpeting, organists' worst > nightmares, acoustic preferences, etc. >   we can do this.....we can also do this and STILL pray and be concerened = about the planet.   and playing the HC in D flat is a horrible thing........it pales against death but is a problem too.   Diversion saves the soul sometimes, lest we become morose and so = despondent over the travails of the world.   i suggest we pray AND talk.   dale in florida  
(back) Subject: Re: Call for Ceaseless Prayers of Intercession From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:06:45 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I agree absolutely with Dale.   None of us could possibly be indifferent to the millions suffering in Asia and call ourselves human beings, but even in the midst of death we are alive.   If we were there, we could probably offer comfort, shelter or help pick up a body and bury it. In the event, we are obliged to leave it to others, and offer what support we can. If that is merely opening our wallets, then so be it.   "Mother" nature can be a strange and unpredictable parent.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- Keys4bach@aol.com wrote:   > > we can do this.....we can also do this and STILL > pray and be concerened about > the planet.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250  
(back) Subject: Colin's remarks and Eddie Layton From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:34:01 -0600   Colin.....I'm not upset.......just making a point; I'm certainly an = amateur when it comes to the organ, but in the "true" sense of the word--one that loves it! I wouldn't think to try to design an organ for a church! I = know the sounds I like and those I don't, and I certainly know more about pipe organs than 99% of the population, but I wouldn't pass myself off as a consultant or anything of the sort!   As for Eddie Layton, in great measure, he was responsible for my interest = in organs. When I was in 5th or 6th grade, he played a Hammond demo concert = in my home town--and I've been fascinated with organs ever sense.   Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: Bad Kids From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:49:37 -0800   I agree with Roy Kersey. I don't mind kids coming up to see the console or to ask questions AFTER CHURCH, but too many kids these days are not being taught manners or how to be polite.   (My God. I'm turning into a crotchety old fart right before your very eyes.)   Sometimes kids come charging up to the console and just start mashing down on notes, or stepping on pedals, or trying to push or pull stops, or change the page of the hymnal, or steal my cough drops and pencils.   Quite frankly, by now my impulse is not to smile nicely at their endearing antics. Instead I glare menacingly at them and snarl, "GO SIT DOWN!" I often have to resist a great urge to whap them "upside the head." The temptation would be greater were it not for the incomprehensible amount of trouble I'd get into for daring to touch one of the little darlings.   Unlike the "good old days," when school teachers patrolled the hallways and playgrounds with a Fli-Back in hand, on the lookout for malefactors. And when they came upon one they generally did not hesitate to vigorously employ their "Board of Education."   Similarly, a child feared the wrath of his friends' parents -- and the other adults at school, church, scouts, etc. -- as much as he feared the wrath of his own. I knew darn well I'd better be on my best behavior at ALL of my friends' houses as well as at home. Not that I usually was (on my best behavior) mind you, but at least I did know there would be consequences.   Today, if another parent dared lay a finger on one of these rambunctious brats, well ... again ... it would make the 6 o'clock news. And ditto for the very parents! Good Lord, if a parent laid a hand on their child the whole community would be in a uproar over the "child abuse." The children would be taken away and put into horrific foster homes and the parents would be Red-Lettered for life.   It may not sound like it, but I really do love children. I am always glad to let them have a go at the organ or to answer their questions -- at appropriate times, and if they ask politely. I have even shown some of them the pipes which usually is a huge, awe-inducing thrill for them.   I just love the ill-behaved ones a little less and do not suffer their misbehavior. And I think our society in general is none the better for having demanded that parents become ever-more permissive and lax when disciplining their children. To the extent that they barely dare discipline them at all. And, again, certainly no teacher or other adult had better even THINK of so much as uttering a stern word, let alone meting out discipline of ANY sort.   So, "what's a mutha-- to do" .......   Well, one especially pesky kid finally got the message when I told him if he didn't stop bothering me during church, I was going to lock him in the cellar boiler-room ... where there are giant spiders and rats crawling about who would eat him alive. He's been the picture of well-mannered politeness ever since. And he keeps his distance, one wary eye always trained on the boiler-room door whenever he sees me coming.   ~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~ Charlie Lester Crabby Old Grouch      
(back) Subject: Carpeting vs tile From: "Ned Benson" <nbenson@stjohnschurch.org> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:47:40 -0800   We're going through this now. 13 years ago before I came, the church powers put down new carpeting over 1/2" jute pad. For the last 5 years, it's looked awful. It's been re-stretched twice, can't be stretched any more.   Replacing the carpet will cost @ $6,000 (or @$2/sq ft) installed. Replacing with porcelain ceramic with a non-slip surface (what Monty needs) will cost @ $15,600 (or @$5.00/ sq ft). The tile will last for 50 years, or until Jesus returns, whichever comes first. New carpet would look great for 3 years, pretty good for 5 more years, then look gawd-awful for 4-6 more or until someone got the gumption to get it re-done; then repeat the same process in another 8 to 15 years.   We pulled up some of the worst carpet, under the choir seats and across the front of the nave, leaving natural gray cement. Folks have spoken with amazement how much better the choir sounds, how much more clearly they can understand the sung text. I am fortunate to have a trusted organist/choirmaster who points out the connection between what they hear and what isn't on the floor any more.   End of debate.     -- Dr. Ned H. Benson St. John's Presbyterian Church 1070 West Plumb Lane Reno, Nevada 89509 http://www.stjohnschurch.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces) From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 23:26:45 -0600   I'm not denying that scales and arpeggios on 4's have there merit, but that strikes me as being a very boring way to do anything but warm up. I did my scale time on the piano, and I don't regret it, but you should also use repetoire for technical exercises. Alicia Zeilenga   > Being forced to do nothing but scales and arpeggios on 4' stops, with > the "reward" being doing them a little faster on fuller registration at > the end of the session, *MAY* be disastrous. Teaching has to be > adjusted > individually, two different students are most likely to be -- > different. > > My own technique is far, far from perfect, but it's getting better all > the time. I've barely played any etudes at all. However, I began > playing > fugues from the WTC at a stage where I really should be playing nothing > but simple Mozart menuets. Of course I had no chance whatsoever to > master them with my limited technical abilities, but I tried, and it > was > fun. I never even sat down to learn a fugue slowly, note by note, voice > by voice, measure by measure, but played directly from the score at > full > tempo. Several hours a day. All the time finding myself a new > challenge, > without having mastered the previous one. >   > Jarle >      
(back) Subject: RE: He that hath ears to hear ...very long (kind of interesting) From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:57:51 +1300   >Now Ross made a statement to the effect that "acoustics are simple" and, knowing otherwise, I responded accordingly. Ross then responded to the effect that he would never sanction the use of modern building materials, which rather evaded the point!   Sorry, Colin, but I still maintain that good acoustics are a simple = matter. If people think they can change the laws of physics and of sound, things will indeed become difficult for them. If auditoirum or church designers = use proportions and materials known to be acceptable, things are simple. If = they use bad shapes and bad materials, awfulness will result. And it's dead = easy to find what works and what doesn't - just take a short listening tour = round churches and halls. Actually, I did not evade the point, but rather the reverse, making the point.   >Having had time to consider the matter more fully and do a little research, it seems to me that no-one could possibly build a modern building without the use of modern materials, because that is what the various fire and construction regulations require.=20   I do not believe fire and construction regulations require the use of = flimsy absorbent board, carpet, hanging drapes, "acoustic" tiles etc., so I = fail to see why they cannot be avoided.   >Add to this the simple fact that modern building are predominantly built around steel space-frames, glass and concrete rather than brick, wood or carved stone, and it soon become clear that the world is changing....and not necessarily for the better.   The buildings need not be, and musicians should condemn attempts to make buildings that cannot work. Again, I'll raise the question: how many musicians have tried to educate clergy? And I'll add: how many musicians have tried to educate architects and self-styled acousticians? Here, I kicked up such hell about the refurbishment of the 1904 Wellington Town = Hall (new seating) that I had a special meeting with the Mayor of the city, = the whole refurbishment project architect supervisor, the acoustics = consultants and several prominent musicians. I succeeded in getting local newspaper headlines for about two weeks. There were alterations made to the = seating as a direct result, and also those "experts" mentioned above were made to = look very bloody silly. Why allow idiots to decide how we are to hear music, = when they aren't even musicians? The "acoustical experts" for the Town Hall refurbishment I've just mentioned had to admit, quite publicly, that = they don't have a single member of their staff (perhaps 20 people spread over = two branches) that can even read music, let alone be described as a = musician. Ditto, none of them are trained in public speaking. I scoffed, very = publicly and very noisily.=20   >How many people realise that the Royal Festival Hall, in London, was the first auditorium in the world ever to include "acoustic design" and "acoustic engineering?" (1951 design, 1954 completion?)   And they followed, I'm guessing, the same sort of idiot nonsense = theorising that that awful book by Bolt, Beranek et al. prate on about in their big book.=20   >From the evidence, it appears that no one can say for sure what the acoustical qualities of an auditorium will be until it is finished, furnished, heated, and filled with musicians, music, and listeners. And if the qualities turn out to be disappointing, it will very likely be expensive to correct them - if it can be done at all.=14 (Quote end)   He merely displays his stupendous ignorance, that's all. His claim on no prior knowledge is unbelievable. Well, no, he may not know, but give me three minutes with his auditorium plans and I'll tell you whether = they'll work or not, for what kind of speech and music and with what levels of audience. That sounds frighteningly arrogant, perhaps, but that's my = claim. =20 > Instead, they cover their backs by calling in "experts" who use computer-modelling and scale-models of proposed new buildings.=20   >Computer models!? Trash. They used those extensively for the 2000-seat concert hall in Wellington known as the Michael Fowler Centre (named = after the city mayor of the time, who was an architect and who pushed for the = new hall). The aisles all had carpets and we were told all the modelling, computer simulations etc. had shown the acoustics would be ideal. The = VERY NEXT MORNING after the opening concert, all the aisle carpeting was = removed and has never been replaced, because they got things so hopelessly = wrong, yet their own bloody theories had convinced them that things would be perfect. They deserved to be humiliated, excoriated and abused. I'm = amazed that musicians often don't study acoustics. If they don't, they can = expect to be put down by self-styled experts in the field. They need to beat = the acousticians at their game, with scientific knowledge, historical = knowledge, architectural knowledge and musicial knowledge, including buildings of different kinds to the appropriate people can be taken on a guided tour = to LISTEN before they set designing pencil to paper.   >This is clearly a worrying development, for art is at the mercy of scientific experts, who may be nothing of the sort.   Exactly what I'm saying.   >Worse still, unless "acoustic experts" are completely aware of material science and the specific sound absorption characteristics of a particular piece of boarding, cladding or textile material, then their sole guide will be the crude general absorption coefficient of the material; assuming that this is known for certain.   Often true, yes.   >Of course, the least problematic way of avoiding legal lawsuits is to make a new building absolutely "dead" and "flat", then add electronic reverberation, which can be fiddled with by another "expert".....it's called "passing the buck" or "a damage limitation exercise"........and it works!   And it does not work, as far as I'm concerned. I fail to see how = electronics can fix or put back something that has been totally destroyed.   >Of course, such an approach leads to the mere simulation of an acoustic, which by the very nature of the beast, is largely synthetic, no matter how successful it may be.   And so I say, YUK, with all the venom I can muster.   >....and also, the use of the traditional materials suggested by Ross, which we rightly uphold as the benchmark for organ and choral music.   And the same for speech and for the classical corpus of orchestral and chamber music, plus solo singing etc.etc. Remember that Decca in the = 1960s often recorded (in the UK) music in deadish studios, then played it back through the reverberant and live Kingsway Hall, re-recording it there to gain the right sound. Worked a treat, and should have been recorded in = the Kingsway Hall to start with.   >I can think of many wonderful old Methodist Chapels, which had little extended reverberation, but in which music nevertheless had a wonderful warmth and eveness.   Oh aye, indeed, yea verily.   >The moment modern building materials are introduced without due regard to acoustic properties, we are in deep trouble!   Precisely. As I asked above, how many musicians have been prepared to = learn about acoustics and then fight the acousticians, architects and = engineers? Very few, I'd dare to suggest.   >The Birmingham hall is shaped like a "shoe-box" and recent scientific research suggests that this is the ideal design for a concert hall.=20   Oh yes, the halls you mention are indeed the important showbox shape. = The Musikvereinsaal in Vienna, halls like that are good. In NZ, we have our wonderful old Wellington Town Hall, Auckland Town Hall (though not so = good as a fair bit of it is absorbent "Oamaru stone" and the best of the lot, Dunedin Town Hall. All of these are pre-WWI, shoebox in shape, and made = of hard materials throughout. I can describe these great Halls in detail if anyone's interested.=20   Rantingly and noisily, (and a bit arrogantly, perhaps) Ross    
(back) Subject: Home organs From: "Nathan Smith" <erzahler@sbcglobal.net> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 01:20:45 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)   Dear List,=0D =0D I have been toying with the idea of making a web site devoted to the residence organ, especially those that are built by their owners. I do n= ot have a residence organ myself, but if any of you do, and would like some = web space devoted to your organ, your thoughts about your organ, or a link t= o your site, feel free to e-mail them to me for posting=0D =0D The URL for the web site will be:=0D =0D www.pipesupport.net=0D =0D =0D Best Regards,=0D =0D Nathan=0D =20
(back) Subject: Re: Eddie Layton, Yankee Stadium organist passes From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 02:01:19 -0500   This brings me to a question I've always had but always forget to ask... what is the history of stadium organs? Did they ever use pipe organs? Andy  
(back) Subject: RE: Eddie Layton, Yankee Stadium organist passes From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:50:42 +1300     >This brings me to a question I've always had but always forget to ask... what is the history of stadium organs? Did they ever use pipe organs?   From a NZer - what do you mean by a stadium?   In your own country, the Chicago and Atlantic City stadiums both had = organs at one time, now only the Atl.City one remains, and that barely (if at = all) playable.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Tonal Finishing From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:34:17 -0000   I find myself resorting to comparisons with the motor industry more and = more frequently (possibly because we all share this experience).   1 You are bombarded with advertising and see the product in general = usage 2 You can get repeated test-drives 3 Some give extended test periods - "Keep it for the weekend" 4 You get pampered while you buy the equivalent to a tin-can - = sometimes for a fraction of the price of an organ ! 5 You get a warranty period - with legal rights 6 You get to take it back to get things fixed   Why aren't people getting the same treatment when they purchase musical instruments ?   Harry Grove [a.k.a. a musicman recovering from his Christmas excess and heading down = the gym] _______________________________   I'm not going to be joining ZZ Top. You know they can't play my stuff. = It's too complicated. James Brown     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Kersey" <rkersey@tds.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Tonal Finishing   [snip]   My points are that, first, it may take some time to become aware of what needs to be done as one lives with the instrument. Secondly, if an individual would spend some weeks of time assessing a $1000 trumpet, why would a church committee do less with a $100K+ organ?    
(back) Subject: Re: Call for Ceaseless Prayers of Intercession From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 03:45:50 EST   I'm sure other denominations have something similar, but this is my = charity of choice:   Fwd: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The United Methodist Committee on Relief is responding through its ecumenical partners to the catastrophe in South Asia. On Sunday, Dec. 26, = a 9.0 magnitude earthquake off the northern Indonesian island of Sumatra caused = tidal waves that have claimed the lives of more than 50,000 people in more than = 10 countries, including Sri Lanka, Indonesia, India, Thailand, Malaysia, the =   Maldives and Bangladesh, according to news reports. Thousands of people = are missing and tens of thousands have been displaced. The full extent of the = disaster is still not known in more remote areas in Sri Lanka, India and = Indonesia, where ecumenical partners are responding.   Donations to UMCOR's "South Asia Emergency" relief efforts can be made through local churches or sent directly to UMCOR, 475 Riverside Drive, = Room 330, New York, NY 10015. Checks should be designated for UMCOR Advance #274305."South Asia Emergency." Credit-card donations may be made by = calling 1-800-554-8583, or you can use www.UMC.org's secure server to make an = online donation.   One hundred percent of your gift goes to relief and recovery efforts. Thank you for your generosity. If you should have further questions regarding this email, please call the number listed above.    
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophy of organ learning From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 04:02:40 EST   Hello cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk,     In reference to your comment: At the moment, I am re-learning the Mozart K608, and I have been correcting some details of fingering, where I have had a few problems with trills and phrasing. I now find that there are better ways of doing certain things, but I have really struggled to drop the previous fingering and replace it with the improved version. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I, too have been re-learning some pieces. However, I had chemotherapy a few years ago which apparently wiped out = more than a few brain cells, particularly those where music was stored. I find = myself relearning piano pieces that I knew well enough to play in concert = - from memory - and I now don't even recognize the pages I'm reading from. It's = a very odd feeling, coming across "new" music in this manner. But..... my technique is far better than it was even a few years ago. = And I'm finding as a result I have no bad fingerings or habits left over, and = as I'm learning correctly this time, I'm playing better than I could then. I guess (she says, hesitantly) that this is a positive side effect of the =   doctors' poisoning? Victoria  
(back) Subject: RE: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces) From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:26:09 -0000   I learned my pedal technique, such as it is, from a wonderful book called "The Science of Organ Pedaling" by Ellingford and Mears. All of the pedal exercises were pedal passages from various standard repertoire pieces. = This not only got the various techniques across, but led to the eerie but satisfying feeling, when learning a new piece, of suddenly finding ones hands groping for the right fingering in a new piece whilst one's feet tripped lightly through a passage "they" already knew!   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Alicia Zeilenga Sent: 29 December 2004 05:27 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces)   I'm not denying that scales and arpeggios on 4's have there merit, but that strikes me as being a very boring way to do anything but warm up. I did my scale time on the piano, and I don't regret it, but you should also use repetoire for technical exercises. Alicia Zeilenga