PipeChat Digest #5043 - Wednesday, December 29, 2004 RE: Last Verses for Organ by "Henry Glass" <email@example.com> Re: Trying a pipe organ in South East Kansas by "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Bad Kids & Organs by "Roy Kersey" <email@example.com> Ministers "tin ears" by "Ned Benson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Philosophy of organ learning by "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> RE: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces) by "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces) by "jch" <email@example.com> RE: Organ Pieces by "Dominic Scullion" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Bad kids, Philosophy of organ learning by "Charlie Lester" <email@example.com> Ned's carpet and floor by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Philosophy of organ learning by "Jarle Fagerheim" <email@example.com> Re: Bad kids by "Randolph Runyon" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: He that hath ears to hear ...again by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Duplicate messages by "Keith Zimmerman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Help!Please! unwanted constant reverberation by "v hatch" <email@example.com> Mascioni organ-builder URL with audio samples by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> southeast Kansas organist by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <email@example.com> Saville organs by "v hatch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Bad kids by "Dominic Scullion" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: RE: Last Verses for Organ From: "Henry Glass" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:02:32 -0600 Actually, That's 200 Last Verses, NO: 96024 available from www.melbay.com <http://www.melbay.com/> in the USA.=20 =20 ________________________________ From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Glenda Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 10:25 PM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: Last Verses for Organ =20 The 100 Last Verses by Noel Rawsthorne are good, and are published by Mayhew. =20 Glenda Sutton email@example.com =20 =20
(back) Subject: Re: Trying a pipe organ in South East Kansas From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:23:58 -0600 Hello, Jarle: You are in our back yard in Southeast Kansas. If you would like to know more about our work, we can arrange some auditions, etc., by writing to me at Principal8@verizon.net Go to our website www.TempleOrgans.com If your friend will take the time to fill out a profile, which is listed on our website, we can enlist a set of interesting places to go. F. Richard Burt Temple Organs Southwest Sales Agent ..
(back) Subject: Re: Bad Kids & Organs From: "Roy Kersey" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:51:33 -0500 Dear Learned Musicians, While I sympathize with Charlie's feelings about badly behaving kids, = and often feel the same way myself, I have to clarify that I do not = believe there are bad kids, just badly managed/raised kids. Really, = really bad kids are either without the proper mental health diagnosis and = treatment and/or have been malformed by years of abuse and neglect . . . = yet, with proper help, many of them can be salvaged. I also do not believe in hitting anyone. There are plenty of other = painful consequences that will work, along with plenty of love, praise and = rewards, without promoting physical aggression. This is true teaching the = organ, managing young congregants, etc., etc. I think we have to make = parents responsible for their children's behavior around the organ or = anywhere else. I believe Charlie is just being a bit hyperbolic and humorous here, = but I wanted to clarify this, just in case. Best Regards, Roy Kersey Organ Enthusaist & Amateur Trumpeter
(back) Subject: Ministers "tin ears" From: "Ned Benson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:01:39 -0800 Monty Bennett writes "It is refreshing to see a pastor who actually cares about the acoustical and musical results in his church building. Beyond being aural, it's a visual expression of beauty. " Thank you, and Amen. Most ministers have "tin ears." Those who do not acquired their musical sense before seminary. I played a brass instrument, and in a brass ensemble through college. Acoustics are at least as important for brass ensemble as for the organ. It's not all their fault, though, having "tin ears." I know of not a single Protestant semnary which offers a meaningful course in hymnody or any other field of music, or any at all at most. When I was in seminary 35+ years ago, we had to take at least 2 courses in homiletics (preaching); there were no courses offered in liturgics, presumably on the basis that Presbyterians didn't "do liturgy." That was true: most didn't, but on Sunday celebrated the "hymn sandwich." The order of worship was (1) "preliminaries," which included all the prayers and everything done by musicians except for 2 hymns; (2) hymn before the sermon; (3) sermon - usually 40 minutes; (4) hymn after the sermon. Hymns by Presbyterian canon law are chosen by the preacher; in my present call, I found the congregation's repertoire of "familiar hymns" was 90 hymns long, including Christmas carols! While research over the years has consistently shown that for Protestants music is #1 for parishioners in worship, preaching #2. Now the "church growth experts" finally acknowledge the importance of music, but insist that the "music" resembly as closely as possible the musical character and quality of tv jingles. Not at St. John's: we are determinedly, traditionally Presbyterian-Reformed in worship and music. And we regularly welcome "refugees" from elsewhere where "happy Jesus hands in the air tv jingles" are the musical offering. They come to St. John's starved for music and texts that lift up the heart and nourish the spirit. About the porcelain ceramic tile and breakage: it's not likely. The material we are buying is a Shaw product with the highest break and wear ratings. It has an uneven surface, like split stone, which our organ builder suggests will help prevent echo reverb from the floor. The only way to break it is if it gets installed not flat, so that it snaps. Our subsurface is concrete. When installed with thin-set cement, the tile becomes structurally an integral part of the concrete floor. It could chip if you dropped a heavy metal object on it, but the chip would be difficult to discern given the uneven surface. The finish has a sand-like texture fired into the porcelain which creates the non-slip surface. Monty could not slide on this surface in his OrganMasters any better than he could on sandpaper. Marble can crack. The floor of Central Presbyterian in Des Moines is 12" square x 1" thick marble, built in @ 1939. With hard plaster over brick and Indiana limestone walls, no carpet or pew cushions, the reverb is 4+ seconds for the 1962 Aeolian-Skinner. A number of the marble tiles have cracked over the years, which only adds character to the floor. At least a few of the cracks were the result of my exercising pastoral persuasion on the heads of certain elders - heavy metal objects, you know. :-) -- Dr. Ned H. Benson St. John's Presbyterian Church 1070 West Plumb Lane Reno, Nevada 89509 http://www.stjohnschurch.org
(back) Subject: Re: Philosophy of organ learning From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:02:50 -0800 (PST) Alright...My turn I like to practice on an 8' Flute, IF I practice at the organ at all. I = find I get better results when i learn a piece at the piano, then take it = to the organ. I was taught to disect pieces, and target the problem = measures. When I learned Litanies, I went directly to the last two pages, = at the piano, and was playing it in 6 weeks. Same with a Bach prelude I = do. A mentor recently encouraged me to get back into the habit of = fingering and pedal-marking every note, which is very helpful. Using = different rythmical patterns helps me with learning toccatas. Im reminded that a former teacher, Jeff McLelland once told me that 3 or 4 = hours of practice is just enough to warm up. So, I prefer long, slow = pratice sessions. Does anyone else use similar ways to learn/practice? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.
(back) Subject: RE: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces) From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:12:26 -0800 (PST) Will Light <email@example.com> wrote: I learned my pedal technique, such as it is, from a wonderful book called "The Science of Organ Pedaling" by Ellingford and Mears. Of course, everyone talks about Nilson. I'm doing a few of the Nilson = excercises. They are taxing, but helpful. My teacher likes to blend = things, so we will soon look at what Germani had to offer. After all, = Sowerby wrote the Pageant for him, so I'm sure there will be some worth at = a different philosophy on pedalling. Considering Roger Davis was my = current teachers professor, we also use some of the passages in his book. One friend in our little "clique" feels that the Nilson is old-fashioned. = Consiering all the developments with things like the Alexander technique, = this friend feels that Nilson does not promote natural body movement. Even = my teacher did say that the Nilson is good only to a point, which is why = we are mixing things up. TDH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
(back) Subject: RE: Philosophy of organ learning (was Re: Organ Pieces) From: "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:15:31 -0600 At 11:12 AM 12/29/04, you wrote: >Will Light <email@example.com> wrote: >I learned my pedal technique, such as it is, from a wonderful book called >"The Science of Organ Pedaling" by Ellingford and Mears. Unfortunately this book appears to be unavailable. jch
(back) Subject: RE: Organ Pieces From: "Dominic Scullion" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:37:01 -0000 Hi Michael. Thanks for replying. I still receive piano lessons but am teaching myself organ. I have had one = o two lessons from on organ teacher I know, but mainly I am alone doing = this. DS _____ From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Michael David Sent: 28 December 2004 19:56 To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Organ Pieces What does your teacher recommend? Or, are doing doing this alone? Michael -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf Of Dominic Scullion Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 9:02 AM To: email@example.com Subject: Organ Pieces Dear all, I have not been playing the organ for too long and would like to build my repertoire. Can anyone suggest any relatively simple or easy to learn organ pieces suitable for recessional voluntaries? Preferably by Bach but any composer would be great. Regards.
(back) Subject: Re: Bad kids, Philosophy of organ learning From: "Charlie Lester" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 10:08:43 -0800 Steve Chandler wrote, > As father of two "little darlings (actually they're 9 and 14 and not so > little now) I'd like to comment on this approach. If you really have to > use deception and fear to get what you want that says more about you > than anyone else. Perhaps so. Nonetheless, the "fear and deception" surely did the trick. He has not been a problem (to me) since. But he certainly is a handful to everyone else. Including his disinterested mother (a single parent who bore him out of wedlock and who spends more time praying for - and meddling in - other people's failings than dealing with her own very tragic situation). Sorry, but when I am in the middle of playing for a service I don't have time (or interest, frankly) to stop everything and [try to] do other people's parenting. Especially when they aren't interested in doing it themselves. If "Little Johnny" hasn't been taught better than to come running up to the organ and start mashing down on the keys in the middle of a church service, then ANY input from me, positive or negative, is going to have little impact. I can just see how far a suggestion of a "time-out" would go. Are you for real?! > The usual argument against whacking kids upside the > head (as was done in the good ole days) is that doing so teaches them > that adults solve their problems with violence. I was not being literal. I would certainly never presume to actually strike a child, whether or not I had the "authority" to do so. It's rather alarming that some people are apparently incapable of sorting out these kinds of 'colorful' expressions. That being said, as for the suggestion that punishment causes "adults to solve their problems with violence," well, it seems that the EVIDENCE points to precisely the reverse. Again, all you have to do is take a look at any modern public school campus anywhere in the U.S. [Not trying to be 'an Elitist American' -- I can only speak of what I know] > If you stopped > the service and marched him back to his parents Surely you're not serious! > because little Johnny > couldn't keep his hands off the instrument their collective > mortification would probably mean that Johnny wouldn't bother you > anymore. In other words (hopefully) their embarassment would prevent > them from allowing Johnny to roam freely during services. Hmm. That's assuming the parents ARE good parents and give a hoot about Little Johnny. Sadly, that's not the case here, and is so often not the case in many cases. (Wow. What a sentence!) This is becoming off-topic now, so I won't comment on it any further. ~ C
(back) Subject: Ned's carpet and floor From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:39:14 -0600 Ned.........keep rippin' up that carpet..........you want that new Aeolian-Skinner to sound its best! And if the natural gray concrete doesn't "blend" well, there are concrete stains that will make it just about whatever color tint you want. If you want to be creative, you can even do patterns with different colors.........say, do the regular floor a plain tan and do the aisles and front in a terra cotta diamond tile pattern........whatever floats your boat. And give my greetings to Jamie and Jackie--my sewing machine and cat friends, respectively. Dennis Steckley "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss
(back) Subject: Philosophy of organ learning From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:40:31 +0100 We need to ask ourselves one very fundamental question: Is learning how to make music (in this case, organ music) different from learning other things? - The slum quarters of Brazil produces some of the best soccer players on earth. Before being picked up by professional clubs as teenagers, they've been playing in the streets with their home-made balls, every day, often for more than 10 years. Norwegian kids are enrolled in clubs from 6 years of age, getting to play organized matches, guided by trained coaches. Relatively systematically, they're taught the various kicks and tackles through excercises, being "awarded" with some free playing at the end of the session. Every year, Norwegian and Brazilian 16-year olds meet during Norway Cup in Oslo. Every year, the Brazilians win hands-down. -- Most people master their native language(s) far better than they'll ever master any musical instrument. Language is probably the most advanced logical structure a human being ever learns. Still, this is difficult to realize before learning a foreign language. One of my best friends fled together with his family from the civil war in Bosnia-Hercegovina, eventually settling in Norway when he was 10. After four months he spoke Norwegian fluently, and five years later it's totally impossible to note a foreign accent. He learned Norwegian like he had learned his native tongue -- by imitation and courage to speak, even if he didn't know all the words yet. I dropped out of school some years ago and have missed hundreds of English lessons. I haven't done any homework since third grade. All that I know of the English language is what I've aquired by reading, writing, and speaking it. - It seems to me that most things can be learned trough imitating, doing, failing, and correcting -- and that what ultimately counts is sheer quantity. When learning the organ, "quantity" would not be just time spent practising at the bench, but every organ-related brain process being executed -- consciously or not. Jarle http://jarle.moo.no
(back) Subject: Re: Bad kids From: "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:51:52 -0500 How about the problem of screaming babies and toddlers throughout the church service? Has this gotten worse in recent years? It's certainly a problem in my church. Kind of makes it impossible to maintain a meditative atmosphere, either through quiet music or moments of silence. Why are parents so thoughtless? We supposedly have a nursery but not everyone uses it. Randy Runyon Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: RE: He that hath ears to hear ...again From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:05:56 -0800 (PST) Hello, A tour around "most" UK churches would reveal the most dreadful acoustics, generally speaking. So much for traditional materials and shapes. Very few buildings actually have good acoustics, but I know one or two brand new London banks which have impressive foyers covering five or six storeys, made from modern materials, and in which Handel would sound absolutely glorious. Quite clearly, something is amiss if only "traditional materials" and "traditional shapes" work acoustically. Actually, the very idea of "tradition" is complete bunk. There are Greek Temples with good acoustics, Roman ones, Norman cathedrals, Gothic cathedrals, square cathedrals, round cathedrals, wooden theaters, brick hall churches, glass and concrete cathedrals, Wooky Hole Cave and the superb underground latrines in Hull, here in the UK, where early music takes on a magical quality!!!! (Before anyone asks, I took a (male) choir there once and we sang Palestrina, much to the alarm of the toilet attendant busily feeding the goldfish in the glass cistern tanks.....I kid you not!!) Let's get real (rather than surreal) for a moment. The brief is for a new concert hall or maybe a modern cathedral such as the Crystal Cathedral, Tokyo Cathedral or Liverpool Metropolitan RC. http://www.tokyo.catholic.jp/en_cathedral.html http://www.seeing-stars.com/ImagePages/CrystalCathedralPhoto4.shtml http://www.merseyworld.com/metcath/staff.html The building will NOT be made of carved stone with an oak interior, because no-one could afford that these days. The building has to comply with all building regulations and safety features, and because it is near an airport, it has to be soundproofed from external sources of annoyance. For reasons of public acceptability and access, the building must function as a multi-purpose venue, just as many new churches do these days. It must be suitable for rock bands, choirs, organ music, speakers, orchestras, intimate jazz trios and works for solo Alpine Horn and Triangle, as well as hold 5,000 people. In other words, they want their moneys worth! That is quite a diverse brief, and I would defy Ross or anyone else who isn't an expert to suggest a design which would cover all the requirements in the one building. Furthermore, it has to be built quickly from scratch, must not go over budget and should be constructed as economically as possible without compromising quality. Difficult? Impossible? What say you? Well I'm glad to report that it has been done very, very successfully.....not once, not twice, but three times here in the UK. The first was the specialised "Snape Maltings" concert hall of Banjamin Britten fame. The second was the superlative Birmingham Symphony Hall. The latest is the Sage Centre in Gateshead, which resembles a glass slug. In fact, you can see them all on the following URL's:- http://www.necgroup.co.uk/visitor/symphonyhall/Home.asp?section=3D360 http://www.aldeburgh.co.uk/online/online.cfm? http://www.thesagegateshead.org/ All of them share one thing.....a common acoustic consultancy, by the name of Arup Associates, originally established by George Sugden; the acoustician involved in the Snape Concert Hall. They have a web site which is very interesting:- http://www.arup.com/acoustics/faq/faq.htm Some may choose to dismiss the use of modern materials, or suggest that ALL acousticians are cowboy operators, but Arup Associates are getting very good results using their own computer models and expertise. I'm also quite sure that they would know the difference between Asbipro perforated metal ceiling elements,Caldic airduct sound absorption, Clecon perforated profiled steel plates, Heraklith wood-wool-magnesite plates, Hoeka acoustic plaster, Isover glass wool fibre, Lambri perforated wooden panels, OWA bound mineral wool ceiling panels, Poriso porous brickwork Rockfon pressed rockwool, ceiling panels diffusors, Tectum wood-wool-magnesite ceiling panels and Ytong aerated concrete!! You pays your money and makes your choice! Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- TheShieling <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > Sorry, Colin, but I still maintain that good > acoustics are a simple matter. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Duplicate messages From: "Keith Zimmerman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:24:04 -0500 Pipechatters, Mr. Hatch just sent me a message stating that he was receiving my = messages - that, AFAIK, were addressed solely to pipechat - as if they = are individual personal messages to him. He didn't say whether this is = happening with other people's messages. He didn't mention whether or = not he subscribes to the "digest" or to the "individual" message = version. I reviewed my most recent posting (Home Organs) in my Outlook = Express "Sent Items" folder, and see that the only addressee is = email@example.com. There is "copy" being sent to anyone from me. I have had a virus in the past that did funny things to my e-mail = program by working invisibly in the background, but it was sending a = worm or virus. Anyway, please let me know if anyone else is having this = problem with messages from me. Thanks, Keith
(back) Subject: Help!Please! unwanted constant reverberation From: "v hatch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:32:13 -0600 I am incredibly stupid regarding electronic organs and I have a Baldwin organ from the fifties or the seventies which has taken to emitting an = echo on everthing. (This organ I have at home as a practice instrument.) By this I mean that there is a sort of reverberation accompanying every note that I play, no matter what stop. When I am finished playing and I am canclling a stop, the sound of the stop being cancelled is amplified by = this echo sound. Even tapping the wood or whatever the material is around the stops yields this same unpleasant omnipresent echo or amplified sound. I have tried putting on --drawing-- things like "REVERB" or TONE ORGANIZER" = (that's not the real name but it's something like that--I can't remember = and I'm not near the organ now to go check!) I think "Tone EXPANDER" is what its's called. Just this ONE mechanism--tone expander--seems to give some relief from the unwanted echo that i am getting. Putting on reverb does = not seem to make the "echo" any more pronounced. It seems to me as though the = reverberation stop is JUST STUCK ON. I live in a tiy little town far away = from everything so there is no person who services these old Baldwins anywhere near. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar =96 get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
(back) Subject: Mascioni organ-builder URL with audio samples From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:37:56 -0800 (PST) Hello, In mentioning the new organ at Tokyo Cathedral in Japan, I stumbled upon the web site of the organ builder, Mascioni of Italy. http://www.mascioni-organs.com/ What a fantastic site this is, and what fine sounding instrument in ideal Italian acoustics. There are samples of the Tokyo organ, which sounds very impressive. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: southeast Kansas organist From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:50:11 -0600 Jarle, you didn't say where in SE Kansas he is located, but he is potentially located near at least four builders--Reuter, Bedient, Quimby, and Nichols & Simpson. Nothing more fascinating than visiting a builder's workshop! Dennis Steckley "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss
(back) Subject: Saville organs From: "v hatch" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:08:01 -0600 A group of church people are discussing a possible replacement for a Saville three-manual organ. Its "preset" mechanism no longer works. Periodically there will be out of tune stops and stuttering stops and a = few silent notes. My problem is that I think I can't be objective in giving = any reaction because I think I have gotten so used to the what I think of its "old world charm" (whatever that is) of the instrument that other things = -- newer electronic instruments in the 30000 to 50000 range (they would be second hand) seem to sound synthetic and lacking in "character" Was there anything particularly good about old Savilles? They may have an = opportunity perhaps to get that HOltcamp that was or may still be offered at 50000 = from Christ Episcopal Church in Memphis--or has that been sold? _________________________________________________________________ Don=92t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
(back) Subject: RE: Bad kids From: "Dominic Scullion" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:12:03 -0000 Ok, I realise that babies screaming is pain while a service is taking = place. But believe it or not, church services are not designed for people to come and listen to music as they would in a concert. It is for quiet prayer and thought and if children go, as they are young, are going to make noise. Parents I have found try their best when it comes to entertaining kids at church. Children and parents though, should not be expected to adhere to the courtesy codes present at concerts in a place of worshup DS -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Randolph Runyon Sent: 29 December 2004 18:52 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Bad kids How about the problem of screaming babies and toddlers throughout the church service? Has this gotten worse in recent years? It's certainly a problem in my church. Kind of makes it impossible to maintain a meditative atmosphere, either through quiet music or moments of silence. Why are parents so thoughtless? We supposedly have a nursery but not everyone uses it. Randy Runyon Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio email@example.com ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org Administration: mailto:email@example.com List-Subscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> List-Digest: <mailto:email@example.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org>