PipeChat Digest #4273 - Saturday, February 14, 2004
 
a comment, and a suggestion
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Welcome Desiree
  by "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com>
Re: Re: careful, now...
  by <giwro@adelphia.net>
Thanks to everyone . . .
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
there's organs, then there's ORGANS
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Killing off organ studies at major schools
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: careful, now...
  by "Christopher Howerter" <OrgelspielerKMD@msn.com>
Re: Lou Dobbs last night
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: careful, now...
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Killing off organ studies at major schools
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: careful, now...
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: a comment, and a suggestion From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:28:59 -0800   If we go much further into this, I suggest interested parties join   Organ Off-topic   which was set up for in-depth discussion of ANYTHING that didn't fit the general (and rather elastic) guidelines of this list.   Unfortunately, I can't find the link right now ... somebody help, please.   That said, there are two opposing philosophies of worship here that really ARE the classic Catholic and Protestant positions. And BOTH have gotten into SERIOUS kim-chi by MIXING the two (grin).   The Roman Catholic / Anglican / Eastern Orthodox / High Lutheran view of worship is that it is directed to GOD, and really doesn't pay much attention to the pagan-off-the-street.   The Mass / The Eucharist / The Divine Litury / The Service is NOT and never HAS been a "seeker service." I keep pointing this out ... in the Eastern Divine Liturgy, the Deacon STILL sings: "Catechumens, depart! All Catechumens, depart! Guard the doors! Guard the doors! The Symbol of Faith!"   AFTER the catechumens have withdrawn, then and ONLY then is the CREED sung. ONLY the faithful were ALLOWED to make the Profession of Faith ... obviously an unbaptized seeker COULD not make the Profession of Faith .... and even the faithful are not allowed to witness the Consecration .... the Royal Doors to the Sanctuary are closed, and a thick curtain drawn across them as well.   As recently as fifty years ago, "casual" visitors were NOT particularly welcome at Roman Catholic and high Anglican services ... I suppose I should include high Missouri Synod Lutheran churches in that as well (grin), UNLESS they were ALREADY thinking about converting.   Using the Mass of the Faithful as a "seeker" service is putting the cart before baptism, as it were. The normal Anglican sequence of events was:   1. Instruction 2. Baptism 3. Confirmation 4. Confession 5. Reception of Holy Communion   Once a convert formally BEGAN instruction, THEN he was expected to attend Sunday Mass. But it never occurred to anyone, Roman OR Anglican, to make Sunday Mass any SIMPLER or more INTELLIGIBLE for the benefit of seekers or converts.   The Eastern Orthodox don't to this day, and they're growing like Topsy (grin).   The Mass was the Mass; it was (and is) part of the Received Deposit of Faith; it was up to YOU to learn to understand it; it was NOT up to the Church (nor should it be today) to dumb it down FOR you.   Protestants came to rely on preaching, rather than liturgy, which by definition is directed horizontally at the people, rather than vertically to God. The problem with that (as with subjective music, whether it be CCM, Gospel hymns, praise choruses, or whatever) is that it IS subjective ... a fine preacher will draw large crowds; music of a certain type will draw lots of young people. But where this approach falters is in its dependence on personalities.   We have an example right in our back yard here in Southern California. Dr. Schuller at the Crystal Cathedral is mostly retired; his son is not drawing the crowds he did; I expect there to be a seismic shift in the Crystal Cathedral's identity and outreach any day now. They either have to change, or die, like so many churches founded by charismatic leaders.   To bring it somewhat on topic, about the only thing left in Angelus Temple in Los Angeles (Aimee Semple McPherson's church) is the Kimball (?) organ.   All too often, churches who rely on that model die when the CHARISMA of the founder dies with the founder.   Christian Science churches are another good case in point: they'll keep Organ Clearing House busy for DECADES as one by one they close down.   Both approaches have their pitfalls, to be sure ... if I NEVER hear another priest try to preach, it'll be too soon (grin) ... all MUST; few CAN (grin); something postively SHOULDN'T.   By the same token, the "made-up" pseudo-liturgies in some Protestant churches make my HAIR stand on end. I remember substituting in one UCC where the following sequence took place at the beginning of the service:   Organ Prelude three chimes SANCTUS sung by the choir from the narthex Processional Hymn   OY! What kind of sense does THAT make? Bells are rung in Catholic liturgy (or used to be) when the SACRAMENT is CONSECRATED, to call the people's attention back in case it has wandered.   I told the choir director afterwards that their service required more preparation than a Pontifical Solemn High Mass, because from the Anglican point of view nothing was LOGICAL. And, unlike Catholic services (at least in the old days), the "liturgy committee" MADE UP a DIFFERENT liturgy every Sunday!   I suppose the regular organist was used to it, but it would have given me HIVES over time (chuckle).   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: Welcome Desiree From: "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:34:36 -0600   Allow me to join the chorus of welcomes at 16' 8' 4' 2' 2 2/3' and IV and with a Trompeta Real spitting out the tune! I'm with ya on the Coral = Ridge School thing. Haven't quite heard anything like The Sound. Although I've =   found the Moller's I've heard to be the most pleasant musical mush ever, a =   Berghaus most boisterous, and Austins absolutely amazing, the Ruffatti = sound just has this inexplicable enchantment over me! I'll admit, I get my fix = by clicking their website to hear the Balbastre Noel variations. I just love =   the "birdie and the bullfrog" one! (2' Flute duo-ing with a 16' reed) Anybody know which of the listed recordings that sample is taken from? I think it's St. Mary's, S.F.   BTW, if anyone has any info whatsoever on Moller Opus 8903=97Greensboro, = N.C., I am interested. You see, the console used where I play used to belong to =   that instrument. It has just come back this week from the Peterson shop = in Alsip and looks absolutely stunning. Our project at St. Paul's thus far = is on schedule and the organ should be playing again by 15th March. All are welcome to drop by for a test-drive! I have been documenting the work = with pics. Email me if you'd like to have a look-see.   cheers n' beers   jim   O):^)   _________________________________________________________________ Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx    
(back) Subject: Re: Re: careful, now... From: <giwro@adelphia.net> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:37:45 -0800   hmmm...   Well... I _DO_ lead the praise band <grin>   as for transcending the genre... I don't know whether I want to do that or = not - I think it's a valid genre even if the musical style is derived from = some other source than religious music.   I've never really resonated with Marva Dawn - I always got the feeling she = looks at "contemporary" worship styles as inferior... I have a REAL = problem with that. The woman at the well tried to pin Jesus down on "how = should we worship?" She wanted to know if it was supposed to be the way her people did, or = like the Jews did in Jerusalem. Jesus avoided the question and said that = true worshippers worship in spirit and truth.   I have a sneaking suspicion God is grieved over our "worship wars". = Worship is a matter of the heart, of one's spiritual connection to God. = The kind of music or style of liturgy is irrelevant - the focus is on = whether the person is truly directing their praise to God. If your = culture and background makes it difficult to connect in a Praise-band = driven serivce, then that's probably not for you... you might be more = irritated and distracted and unable to get past the style to connect with = God. The same holds true for a more formal and traditional service - if = that's not your cup of tea, perhaps you shouldn't try to make it so.   I could go on and on - the point is not whether one style is a superior = form of worship... it MAY be superior in YOUR eyes, and for YOU it = probably IS. If the heart of the worshipper is pure and using whatever = style to connects with God in a <insert style of worship here> service, it = is good.   As for Marva's assertion that the lyrics are trite and repetitive (did = someone say 7 words sung 11 times?) just listen to a Handel anthem and = tell me how many times THOSE words are repeated <giggle>   In my 20+ years of music ministry, I have seen drivel in ALL styles. I am = encouraged that the theological content of contemporary worship music has = rapidly progressed I leave you all with the following lyrics as an = example... the song says it much better than I can:   When the music fades All is stripped away, And I simply come; Longing just to bring Something that's of worth That will bless Your heart. I'll bring You more than a song, For a song in itself Is not what You have required. You search much deeper within, Through the way things appear; You're looking into my heart.   I'm coming back To the heart of worship, And it's all about You, All about You, Jesus. I'm sorry, Lord, For the thing I've made it, When it's all about You, All about You, Jesus.   King of endless worth, No one could express How much You deserve. Though I'm weak and poor, All I have is Yours, Ev'ry single breath. I'll bring You more than a song, For a song in itself Is not what You have required. You search much deeper within, Through the way things appear; You're looking into my heart.   I'm coming back To the heart of worship, And it's all about You, All about You, Jesus. I'm sorry, Lord, For the thing I've made it, When it's all about You, All about You, Jesus.   **************   Let our music be for GOD, not for us   Peace,   Jonathan    
(back) Subject: Thanks to everyone . . . From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:49:53 -0600   For the outpouring of sympathy regarding Bubba's passing. In addition to e-mails, I've received cards (thanks a lot to Mark, for one), and Bob Lind's "Catagraph in E minor", which is utterly charming. I will play it at my next recital! Rick was so impressed, and the other kitties are jealous as hell, clamoring for me to commission works in their names. I only wish he was here to enjoy it too - he would be so thrilled.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com          
(back) Subject: there's organs, then there's ORGANS From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 17:07:49 -0800   I haven't heard any NEW Ruffati work, so I will reserve comment on THAT; the St. Mary's Cathedral instrument obviously didn't take into account the design of the BUILDING ... whose fault THAT was, I don't know. It may sound good in recording, but in person all the sound goes up the Maytag agitator (chuckle).   We have a Ruffati-Rodgers here locally; it's falling apart (Sacred Heart Church, Coronado Island).   A Mitchell Austin IS a thing of beauty, but unaltered ones are few and far between (St. Luke's, Germantown PA?, Sweetest Name of Mary, Chicago?)   Ditto Whitelegg Mollers, but the biggest surviving one of THOSE is sitting mute and derelict in Holy Name Church, Manhattan.   OTOH, there ARE SKINNERS: St. Luke's, Evanston IL, Woolsey Hall at Yale, St. Paul's in North Carolina, etc. etc. etc. ... Sadly the biggest one of those sits semi-derelict and seldom-used in Public Hall, Cleveland OH.   Smoky Mary's in NYC can't lay claim to the Skinner or Harrison names anymore, but what a SOUND!   And the big Aeolians at Duke and Longwood Gardens ... oh, MY!   What about St. Mary's in New Haven, or The Immaculate Conception and Holy Cross Cathedral in Boston? Those are TRUE monuments of American organ-building.   I would put the Fritts-Richards in All Souls' Church here in San Diego up against just about ANYBODY'S organ. It'll play almost ANYTHING, flat pedal-board, no swell box, straight mechanical key and stop action and modified tuning notwithstanding.   From what I can hear over the Net, the new Pasi in St. Cecelia's in Omaha is a history-making sound, as are the Fisk and the Brombaugh at Oberlin, albeit in VERY different ways.   The Beckeraths at Trinity Lutheran, Cleveland, The Oratory, Montreal, St. Paul's Cathedral, Pittsburgh ... in some ways they sound kinda dated and middle-of-the-road now, but they're STILL *very* SATISFYING organs to play ... you don't get TIRED of the sound.   The big Kimballs in Denver and Wooster ... I HOPE no one takes it into their heads to change or replace Denver!   I'm not terribly fond of most Flentrops, but the cathedral in Seattle is a stunning exception.   And I would be remiss if I didn't mention a number of new organs by our own listmeister's company, Nichols and Simpson ... I kidded them that they sprang full-grown from the ocean on a pipe-metal clamshell stamped "Property of G. Donald Harrison" (chuckle).   I can't WAIT to hear Noack's restoration of the last surviving 3m Koehnken & Grimm in Plum Street Temple, Cincinnati.   Sorry ... the "Coral Gables Sound" isn't even on my RADAR, compared to the above.   Cheers,   Bud       james nerstheimer wrote:   > Allow me to join the chorus of welcomes at 16' 8' 4' 2' 2 2/3' and IV > and with a Trompeta Real spitting out the tune! I'm with ya on the > Coral Ridge School thing. Haven't quite heard anything like The Sound. =   > Although I've found the Moller's I've heard to be the most pleasant > musical mush ever, a Berghaus most boisterous, and Austins absolutely > amazing, the Ruffatti sound just has this inexplicable enchantment over > me! I'll admit, I get my fix by clicking their website to hear the > Balbastre Noel variations. I just love the "birdie and the bullfrog" > one! (2' Flute duo-ing with a 16' reed) Anybody know which of the > listed recordings that sample is taken from? I think it's St. Mary's, = S.F. > > BTW, if anyone has any info whatsoever on Moller Opus 8903=97Greensboro, =   > N.C., I am interested. You see, the console used where I play used to > belong to that instrument. It has just come back this week from the > Peterson shop in Alsip and looks absolutely stunning. Our project at > St. Paul's thus far is on schedule and the organ should be playing again =   > by 15th March. All are welcome to drop by for a test-drive! I have > been documenting the work with pics. Email me if you'd like to have a > look-see. > > cheers n' beers > > jim > > O):^) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and > beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Killing off organ studies at major schools From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:14:40 EST   Dear Pipechatters: In this era of politicians and powerplayers not appearing to be what = they really are, and the power behind major maneurvers coming from the = sidelines, we might ask some more investigative questions than, "Why did Dean = so-and-so take it upon herself to shut down Northwestern's organ program?" Retirement is NOT a decision made at the spur of the moment. If not a heartwrenching, evolved process, it is at least PLANNED -- "massive life = change aforethought." With such a huge pool of talent out there, composed of brilliant, = trained musicians who seemingly cannot find teaching positions and church jobs, it =   would seem to me that a successor to the famed retiring head should be = easy to find. Why did they not plan ahead, and hand-pick their most promising or accomplished alum to succeed them? Why was such a person not phased in = over three or four semesters? Why didn't the entire department create an atmosphere = of "assumed continuance," courting the best of the best, and pick one of the = many available "stars" to renew excitement about the school and its program? When I was admitted to Northwestern, Richard Enright was the chair, = and although I ended up staying here in New York City, I was thrilled to have = had the chance just to audition. The department survived HIS retirement, and = there seems to be no reason that a logically planned succession, with the right people and the right [free] publicity through organ periodicals could have = given "Northwestern: the next generation" a good shot. We must ask questions beyond the obvious, and not just about Northwestern. Why should Boston University and the New England = Conservatory have to discontinue their programs in the epicenter of organisticity in the = Northeast? What went wrong? Who did what? Or more likely, who DIDN'T do what? Is it the degredation of the profession that discouraged application = to these programs? Are people afraid to launch careers in organ and church = music because they fear low wages, bad music programs, or ignorant and vicious = clergy? There is more here than meets the eye, and there are more questions than = we are asking...   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City Who knows that "organisticity" is not a word, but couldn't think of = anything else.   ..  
(back) Subject: RE: careful, now... From: "Christopher Howerter" <OrgelspielerKMD@msn.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:53:45 -0500   Dear List,   After reading this, I had to post concerning the topic. I, too, at a = young age watched Diane Bish every chance I got. She is really what got = me into the organ! That age I cannot remember too well...alas, yet I am = 17! No, just joking...I was 12 at the time. Though, I just recently = started lessons with Stephen Roberts and will be attending WCSU (Western = Connecticut State University) next year, where he teaches. I must say = that both Stephen Roberts and Diane Bish both studied with Mildred = Andrews, the renowned Dupre disciple. BTW, his biography is at = http://www.wcsu.edu/music/faculty/stephen_roberts.html<http://www.wcsu.ed= u/music/faculty/stephen_roberts.html>. He is a fabulous teacher, a = walking encyclopedia of organ knowledge, and is VERY dedicated, which is = the key ingredient. If you know of any organ students that are looking = for a GOOD and CHEAP education (being a state institution), send them = his way. He is truly remarkable! One will, in this case, certainly NOT = get what they are paying for! They will get much, much more!!!   Sincerely, Christopher J. Howerter, SPC who is apologizing for his extensive use of exclamations and double = negatives! ------------------ Original Message: Subject: RE: careful, now... From: "T.Desiree' Hines" = <nicemusica@yahoo.com<mailto:nicemusica@yahoo.com>> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:50:54 -0800 (PST)   Gag? oh no you didnt=20 lol haha =20 Coral Ridge PC and the Joy of Music is what drew me to the organ at 14 = years old..and Im only 24 now. So while some gag...be thankful for a = program that got to a young organist who listens to Beyonce regularly=20 =20 =20     From Desiree'=20 T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60649 http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html<http://concertartist.info/bios/= hines.html>   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online  
(back) Subject: Re: Lou Dobbs last night From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:05:31 EST   In a message dated 2/13/2004 2:12:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, OrgelspielerKMD@msn.com writes:   > (a C-2a, to be exact).   not AGO i dont think.   dale in florida    
(back) Subject: Re: careful, now... From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:07:24 EST   In a message dated 2/13/2004 5:52:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, nicemusica@yahoo.com writes:   > Coral Ridge PC and the Joy of Music is what drew me to the organ at 14 > years old..and Im only 24 now. So while some gag...be thankful for a = program that > got to a young organist who listens to Beyonce regularly > > >   somone had to replacce VIRGIL.......that is how a lot of us oldsters got here.   dale in florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Killing off organ studies at major schools From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:10:53 EST   In a message dated 2/13/2004 9:15:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, TubaMagna@aol.com writes:   > Is it the degredation of the profession that discouraged application to > these programs? Are people afraid to launch careers in organ and church > music > because they fear low wages, bad music programs, or ignorant and vicious =   > clergy? >   or perhaps unimaginitive ORGANS ? or lack of real training for what the jobs really are....     dale in flordia reminding everyone i play a toaster and use MIDI in my Lutheran church    
(back) Subject: Re: careful, now... From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:16:22 EST   In a message dated 2/13/2004 5:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, runyonr@muohio.edu writes:   > Worship should not be highjacked to do recruitment   AMEN.   that should be why liturgical or any style should work&amp;nbsp; if it is = done to God's Glory   dale in florida