PipeChat Digest #4275 - Saturday, February 14, 2004 Re: there's organs, then there's Ruffatti... by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: Stephen Roberts (was Re: careful, now...) by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Hooray for Diane!! by "Robert Nickel" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Britson Organs by "Robert Nickel" <email@example.com> Re: a comment, and a suggestion by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: a comment, and a suggestion by "Melisma" <email@example.com> Re: Hooray for Diane!! by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Baptist Service Playing by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> St. Chrysostom's by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Re: MY requirements by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: Stephen Roberts (was Re: careful, now...) by "Mike Gettelman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> old pipework by "james nerstheimer" <email@example.com> Re: Stephen Roberts (was Re: careful, now...) by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Re: Worship Style by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Stephen Roberts (was Re: careful, now...) by "M Fox" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Hooray for Diane!! by <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com> Re: old pipework by "James R McFarland" <email@example.com> James B. Jamison (cross-posted) by "Phil Stimmel" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: James B. Jamison (cross-posted) by "David Scribner" <email@example.com> Re: James B. Jamison (cross-posted) by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: careful, now... by "Alan Freed" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: there's organs, then there's Ruffatti... From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:25:44 EST Sebastian asked: >Can you please elaborate? >How many American organbuilders were asked to bid? >Six? Ten? A dozen? >What made ALL but one pass up this amazing opportunity? We ended up talking to six builders, three American, two Canadian, and Ruffatti. Two of the builders are "boutique" builders in the = Electro-Pneumatic tradition. One of them turned our inquiry down due to the distance from = the factory and the size of the instrument. The other one told us what they = would build us, disregarding the musical needs of our ministry and the size of = our new building. One of the other American builders, made a disparaging remark = about the predominant race of my church to me after meeting with the Minister of = Music and myself, while I was walking him to his car, where he proceeded = to drop the Minister of Music's business card in the parking lot, driving off, not = even bothering to pick it up. I guess he figured it was ok for him, as a = white guy to say some things about black churches to another white guy. Little = did he know that I am not only the organist at Friendship, but that I am also = a member, and that we are a mixed congregation. What he didn't know is that = we had almost $2 million sitting in the bank for an organ that we could have = written him a check that day if we wanted to. What scared us off from a couple of = builders was that while we liked their sound, they didn't have experience = with instruments that were larger than 80 ranks. We didn't want to be the = guinea pig church. Why should we have to take a chance with a company that has = never built a large organ in a large room? Only one American company we talked = to had interest in building the style of organ that we wanted. There are = several companies we could have talked to, but I wasn't going to settle for an uninspired, run of the mill, vanilla organ that could have been built by = any one of a number of "garage" organ companies. I chose to go out of the country and = we found what we wanted. I drive a foreign (European) car for the same = reason. I wanted a car that was fun to drive, great on gas, stylish and sporty. I = wear a lot of English tailored clothes because I like the quality and style of their suits and shoes. Nothing against America, but when I can find what = I want, in the style and quality I want and need, I'll buy it here. Until then, = I'll go to where I can get it. Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: Stephen Roberts (was Re: careful, now...) From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:41:25 EST Dear Mike3247 and Pipechatters, The idea that you are "just" an auto mechanic should be banished from your = mind. I may be a trained musician and an organist, but I'm not sure that = auto mechanics and organists are culturally separated. Frankly, an auto = mechanic would probably be able to figure out the guts of the tracker organ I play = weekly. The two professions I always aspired to were "musician" and "auto = mechanic". "Organist" seems to have satisfied both. I will never forget participating = in the "overhaul" of my dad's 1966 Chevy, in our New England barn in the late = '70's. I learned to drive in a 1952 Chevy half-ton Pick-up, after giving = "her" a valve job when I was nine years old. I still treasure the black-and-white Polaroid of me sitting on my Granfather's lap "driving" the 1938 Chevy = dump truck he purchased in 1950 from the Watertown Department of Public Works. My 1958 Dodge Coronet "Getaway 6" is my current source of enjoyment, as is = my Hutchings tracker at church. So much for the "culture wars" and the = "Nascar Constituancy". I never thought I understood how things worked until I = re-built a Chevy. Bill H.
(back) Subject: Hooray for Diane!! From: "Robert Nickel" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 14:46:37 -0600 Monty Bennet wrote: =20 I'm going to make a bold statement here....Diane has played to more = people=20 via her TV program than anyone on this list has. She has educated the general=20 public about the organ. Who cares if she does it while wearing sequins = and=20 gold shoes. She has proved that the organ doesn't have to sound like a Hammond=20 spinet at a funeral home playing "In the Garden." If she can attract = some=20 young new players, good for her. It's the future of our instrument. >>>>>>>You could say this a million times, too, Monty. Three cheers for your bold statement. =20
(back) Subject: Britson Organs From: "Robert Nickel" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 14:48:24 -0600 I'm interested in information on Britson organs for a home installation. What's the scoop on these? I have never seen or heard one other than on = the net. =20 Please reply privately. Thanks. Bob Nickel
(back) Subject: Re: a comment, and a suggestion From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:50:44 -0500 On 2/13/04 7:28 PM, "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > That said, there are two opposing philosophies of worship here that > really ARE the classic Catholic and Protestant positions. And BOTH have > gotten into SERIOUS kim-chi by MIXING the two (grin). Absolutely fabulous essay, Bud! (I'll quibble about "Confirmation," but that can wait.) Alan
(back) Subject: Re: a comment, and a suggestion From: "Melisma" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:55:11 -0800 > On 2/13/04 7:28 PM, "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> wrote: > And BOTH have > gotten into SERIOUS kim-chi by MIXING the two (grin) Hey, Bud - watch it! I *like* kimchi :D Melisma (ducking back under her once-again-Canadian Rock to tuck into the the last of the kimchi she brought home from Korea in October... Yeah, and it's still good!)
(back) Subject: Re: Hooray for Diane!! From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:15:56 -0600 Hi! Hmmm....I wonder how well I'd be recieved if I played concerts in fancy sequin dresses and shoes with lots of diamond rings on my fingers. I wish I could attract people to the organ that way :) Darn! :) On a serious note, Diane was the first real organist I ever payed attention to as well. And I always did like the way she played hymns. In fact, I have one of her videos of all hymn arrangements, some played at Coral Ridge. The church music conference that she initiated was one of the best around. She has edited some wonderfully practical volumes of classical pieces and her hymn arrangements, if not musical masterpieces to some, are great for church and people really enjoy them. Blessings, Beau Surratt Minister of Worship and Music
(back) Subject: Baptist Service Playing From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:25:10 -0600 Hi! Having grown up Southern Baptist and played in that setting for a while, I can certainly vouch for the fact that there are large Baptist churches who still use the organ. When I was growing up back in Jackson, TN, it was the new organ at my church that inspired me to play the organ. This was a 1200 member Southern Baptist Church and it purchased a 3/62 Visser-Rowland instrument. This is where I played my high school senior recital. The organist there, who was one of the best in the community, was my first teacher. Incidentally, Union University, a Southern Baptist liberal arts college has a 3 manual Visser-Rowland Tracker in their chapel. They still have an endowed recital series that brings a major artist there each year. It is usually one of the Karen McFarlane folks. Dr. Ron Boud, former professor of music at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, is their professor. Another great Southern Baptist Church for organs is First Baptist in Memphis, TN. They actually observe the liturgical year to an extent and use piano and organ in worship every week for most everything. Blessings, Beau
(back) Subject: St. Chrysostom's From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:30:31 -0600 Hi! Indeed there is a large "impacted Moeller" at St. Chrysostom's. Its 4 manuals with 90 some odd ranks and is contained in a chamber that is suitable for maybe 30 ranks. Half the thing doesn't work. The Fisk will indeed be a blessing for Prof. Hoskins, the church, and Chicago's organ community. For those of you who don't know Richard Hoskins, he got Bachelor's and Masters' from Northwestern with Richard Enright and has studied regularly in Paris with Daniel Roth. The spec of the Moeller as well as the proposed spec of the Fisk, along with other info about their music program, is available at http://www.saintc.org Blessings, Beau
(back) Subject: Re: MY requirements From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:44:55 EST Bud wrote: >I am curious, though, about Monty's comments concerning what he needs an >organ to DO ... if an organ to play organ literature isn't needed, then >why such a huge stop-list? I'm assuming a Baptist church of that size >would have an orchestra that would do most of the choral accompanying. >Is there something about Baptist service-playing that I've missed over >the years? (grin) Well, we aren't the typical Baptist congregation, in many respects. First = of all, we are a predominantly upper-middle class African-American = congregation, but it is mixed with many other races. So our musical styles vary from = Bach and the classics to contemporary urban gospel. Secondly, our congregation = is musically astute, so they expect the best of the best, regardless of = style. Thirdly, we have a music ministry that currently has over 400 members participating in some sort or fashion, and 17 on the music staff. In our current church, we are limited by space as to how many we can fit = in our choir area. The new church will have seating for approximately 200 singers and 75 instrumentalists, but a lot of the space will be flexible, = so we can bring in seating for extra singers if necessary. We are anticipating = adding another 150 or so singers into our choir program as a result of our = increased space. Our orchestra does not play every week, nor are they going to in the new church. They play about once a month, as a group, but most weeks we have = some sort of extra instrumentation (a flute solo or trumpet on an anthem, = etc.), but always (in good Baptist fashion) piano and pipe organ. So, the pipe organ = is the main instrument in our worship. However, with the diversity of = styles, I need it to go from a solid church organ for playing literature for = preludes and postludes and hymns, to being an accompanimental instrument to play for = the children's choir as they "rock out", hit a piston to get a good theatre = organ type of effect to play for the Ladies choir do do an old Baptist gospel = hymn during the offertory, go to a whisper quiet celeste to underscore the = Scripture reading and prayers, back to traditional organ for the adult choir to sing = some big anthem, and then rip off some big toccata as the postlude. Most churches are not doing 6 or 7 styles of music in the course of an hour and = a half. When the big Moller was built at Calvary, the same questions were asked. Calvary HAD the same kind of music program, back in it's heyday. It was = not uncommon when I was there, for us to do four or five radically different = styles of music, and the organ carried the weight of the accompaniment--switching = gears from being the leader to being a filler to being an orchestra. I didn't say that I didn't need the organ not to play literature, I just don't need to play very specific types of literature. If all I did was = play 16th century works or 19th century literature, I could have scaled down the = organ, but the diversity of styles, musical requirements, and sheer size of the = room dictate more flexibility. We also did it because we didn't want to have to go back 10 years from now = and add to the organ because we decided we wanted to add something. Sure, = there are a few things I could have added, but I don't really think that a 1 = 1/7' or an 8/9' would add much to a Baptist service. Plus, we did it because = we had the money and we could. Who said there was anything wrong with just a = little bit of pretentiousness? Monty Bennett
(back) Subject: Re: Stephen Roberts (was Re: careful, now...) From: "Mike Gettelman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:22:13 -0500 Thank you Bill, When I said it, I actually had no intention of demeaning myself nor my trade, so I must have used poor sentence construction. I simply was trying to make you understand that Stephen Roberts does not care what is your trade or status. He reaches out to anyone who thrills to the organ as much as he does. He is a very nice man indeed. Actually there are a lot of car lovers amongst us organ lovers in this group. I wrote to Tim Bovard recently to ask an organ related question and recieved a quick response that included a picture of his newly acquired mint 74 TBird with the big 429 engine. He raved for about a half a page about it, and I don't think he ever did answer my original question. :-) As a mechanic I am indeed very interested in the magical mechanical systems that allow an organ to speak at the hands of a skilled performer. I can't think of a happier moment in my life than being inside the Severance Hall Skinner during a concert. Although there is very little action to see inside an EP instrument while being played, I still found myself looking to the pipes that were speaking at any given moment, and wondering what was going on in the chest beneath them. I imagine if you took me inside a tracker, you would have the devil trying to get me back out. I probably should not say this, but since I have the soapbox for the moment, I'll forge ahead anyway. There are those in this crowd that would dismiss me offhand because of what I am, and more importantly for what I am not. I am not an organist, I am not an organ builder. I am not in any way associated with the group of people here who lay claim to the reasons one might be a community member. I am nothing but a simple enthusiast. But then, I am a patron. I buy concert tickets, CDs, books, music, organizational memberships, and other items whose sale benefits the community in general. I am also a tireless promoter for our instrument, for the performers who have made an indelible mark in my heart, and for the organ builders who have taken me under their collective wing to show me that for which I genuinely yearn. Without any egotistical intent, I think it's safe to say that the organ needs many more people just like me. Certainly the academic, technical and artistic core of the community that surrounds the organ is the driving force that needs to be in place in order to perpetuate the tradition of our instrument, but we need to do as much as possible to market ourselves to each and every prospective enthusiast that displays even the faintest glimmer of interest, for it from those potential supporters that will flow the dollars and the increased promotion which just might insure the continuation of the pipe organ tradition for generations to come. So what specifically am I asking of you? First and foremost, tolerance. Be a little less quick to blast someone publicly for some minor infraction or inaccuracy. A gentle private admonishment is far more likely to be well recieved and less embarrassing for the poster. I say this because I myself have been guilty of just such public blasts, and i assure you I will do it no more. Secondly, respond when someone emails you off list. I have very ill feelings toward certain people on this list whom I have sent inquiries to and been totally ignored by. I can only think that happens because I am just an auto mechanic. I want to learn just as badly as any student out there who is seriously studying the instrument. If you don't have time to form a detailed response to what you know is a basic question, consider forwarding it to someone you know who might enjoy helping educate someone on a more fundamental level. Let the questioner know you are forwarding the message. It just takes a moment. Thirdly, and I promise this will be the last, consider your general conduct on list. Anybody who is uninitiated to organ people, and begins to read the list for the first time, might find themselves shocked at the way you snipe at each other over the incredibly smallest of minutiae. This person may be an organ committee member who has decided to drop in on the conversation to help him decide if a pipe organ is worth the effort and expense compared to an electronic instrument. If he sees how difficult pipe organ people can be when talking about the instrument, its music, and the quality, he may just run away from us trailing smoke. Well, as that country singer gal with the price tag on her hat used to say, "I'm all through now" Egads Bill, see what you started. Give a guy a compliment and he begins to spout like a volcano. Oh well, that's what community is all about, and I appreciate being allowed my eruption. Perhaps I've given food for thought, perhaps you think I'm a crackpot. Either way, I'm happy to be an auto mechanic/organ lover/pipechatter who is really looking forward to his first OHS convention in Buffalo this year. Cheers Mike Gettelman DERREINETOR@aol.com wrote: > Dear Mike3247 and Pipechatters, > > The idea that you are "just" an auto mechanic should > be banished from your mind. I may be a trained > musician and an organist, but I'm not sure that auto > mechanics and organists are culturally separated. > Frankly, an auto mechanic would probably be able to > figure out the guts of the tracker organ I play > weekly. > > The two professions I always aspired to were > "musician" and "auto mechanic". "Organist" seems to > have satisfied both. I will never forget > participating in the "overhaul" of my dad's 1966 > Chevy, in our New England barn in the late '70's. I > learned to drive in a 1952 Chevy half-ton Pick-up, > after giving "her" a valve job when I was nine years > old. I still treasure the black-and-white Polaroid of > me sitting on my Granfather's lap "driving" the 1938 > Chevy dump truck he purchased in 1950 from the > Watertown Department of Public Works. > > My 1958 Dodge Coronet "Getaway 6" is my current > source of enjoyment, as is my Hutchings tracker at > church. So much for the "culture wars" and the > "Nascar Constituancy". I never thought I understood > how things worked until I re-built a Chevy. > Bill H.
(back) Subject: old pipework From: "james nerstheimer" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:35:41 -0600 I'm so glad the subject of old/re-used/re-worked pipes came up. Our = Howell is around 90% old pipework. We've a nice tin set of Salicionals on which one pipe is stamped, "G.Mack July 1892". One of the 8' Pedal Principals (Double Open Diapason) bears the name, L. Gutfleisch. The = Principal=97read Diapason=97chorus is from an old Moline. The rest, I think, came from = Pete Howell's garage! The only new stuff which was put in in 1982 are the = Pedal reeds (Schopps), chorus reeds, Great and Choir mixtures (Giesecke), and = the Swell mixture which Paul tells me was made by some fellows who used to = make pipes for Aeolian-Skinner. Our Sesqui was once a zinc and hoyt metal = string from somewhere else. The Chimney Flute used to be a 4' Octave and the Untersatz was once a Kimball Open Wood. The big Tuba was done by Adolph Zajic for the old Stone Church of Cleveland. Needless to say it's = awesome! Moller did make some great reeds back then. Not sure where the Vox = Angelica came from=97rumours say Pilcher. Windpressures were checked toward the beginning of the work and everything = was found to be a bit under throughout. We were only getting 2 3/4" on = the Great. This will be brought up to 3" and we will then get to hear what those Moline pipes REALLY sound like! That Chimney Flute is really small scale and was pushed as far as it could = go. The Salicional was rescaled and does double-duty as a small = Principal. With the addition of the 2 and the 1 1/3, the Swell chorus will be = improved immensely. I hope we will be able to get more out of the Harmonic Flute. It is also = a bit underscaled. In the high treble range it's quite lovely, but below = alto C or thereabouts, it sounds like it has a cold! This isn't the only organ project going on in DeKalb. Ask Devon what he's = up to! Me hungry now. Must find foooood. Next weekend, building a Cymbelstern from sanctus bells! jim O):^) _________________________________________________________________ Keep up with high-tech trends here at "Hook'd on Technology." http://special.msn.com/msnbc/hookedontech.armx
(back) Subject: Re: Stephen Roberts (was Re: careful, now...) From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:46:29 EST S, Thanks. I get it. I so get it. Bh
(back) Subject: Re: Worship Style From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:53:31 EST In a message dated 2/14/2004 1:40:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, = firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Personally, I think the church is big enough to have some "seeker" > congregations and some ultra high church and some holy roller = Pentecostal > and some fundamentalist shoutin' Baptist and everything in between. > Oh My. A preacher after me own heart. Do you suppose there is room in "heaven" for all of us too? This is such a fun group of people. I once played at a UMC that thought it was liturgical because the sang the = Dox every week. We do contemptorary choruses every week at my current ELCA = church. Now if only the sermons meant anything............ dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Stephen Roberts (was Re: careful, now...) From: "M Fox" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:00:12 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gettelman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> >Without any egotistical intent, I think it's safe > to say that the organ needs many more people just like > me. Certainly the academic, technical and artistic core > of the community that surrounds the organ is the > driving force that needs to be in place in order to > perpetuate the tradition of our instrument, but we need > to do as much as possible to market ourselves to each > and every prospective enthusiast that displays even the > faintest glimmer of interest, for it from those > potential supporters that will flow the dollars and the > increased promotion which just might insure the > continuation of the pipe organ tradition for > generations to come. Can I just add the heartiest and most stentorian AMEN to Mike Gettelman's comments -- not just the one quoted, but the whole of his post? MAF
(back) Subject: Re: Hooray for Diane!! From: <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:27:03 EST In a message dated 2/14/04 3:16:04 PM Central Standard Time, Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com writes: > The church music conference that she initiated was one of > Thanks, Beau! Yours, Darryl No longer by the Sea, but was by the Sea when Beau came down as a HS boy to our Explosion!
(back) Subject: Re: old pipework From: "James R McFarland" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:12:04 -0500 On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:35:41 -0600 "james nerstheimer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> writes: > I'm so glad the subject of old/re-used/re-worked pipes came up. Our > Howell is around 90% old pipework. We've a nice tin set of Salicionals on > which one pipe is stamped, "G.Mack July 1892" >One of the 8' Pedal Principals (Double Open Diapason) bears the name, L. Gutfleisch. Both of these men were Roosevelt pipemakers, although the date seems a little late. Mack went on to build pipes for the trade. Gutfleisch made pipes for Farrand and Votey and then partnered with Schopp to make pipes for the trade. Either way, they knew what they were doing. Quite a few ranks by both of these men have gone through the shop here in the past thirty-some years. All superbly crafted. Jim
(back) Subject: James B. Jamison (cross-posted) From: "Phil Stimmel" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:49:40 -0500 I've been doing some research on the large or unusual organs built by = Estey. James B. Jamison's name appears on a lot of their important = early work; however, I've been unable to find much information about the = man, other than his interesting book "Organ Design and Appraisal" and = some references in Callahan's "American Clasic Organ." Can anyone on this list direct me to any other resources or information = about him? Thanks. Phil Stimmel
(back) Subject: Re: James B. Jamison (cross-posted) From: "David Scribner" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:55:21 -0600 At 7:49 PM -0500 02/14/04, Phil Stimmel wrote: >I've been doing some research on the large or unusual organs built >by Estey. James B. Jamison's name appears on a lot of their >important early work; however, I've been unable to find much >information about the man, other than his interesting book "Organ >Design and Appraisal" and some references in Callahan's "American >Clasic Organ." > >Can anyone on this list direct me to any other resources or >information about him? From the David fox Guide to north American Organbuilders: Jamison, James B. Representative of Estey firm of Brattleboro, VT, for Pacific coast, 1925-1930; representative of W. W. Kimball firm of Chicago, IL, in San Francisco, CA, 1936; in Los Gatso, CA, 1930s; representative and tonal advisor of Austin firm of Hartford, CT, 1934-1949; died 1959. The DIAPASON in the Feb 1936 had some more information and/or article about him if you can find a place that has back issues. David
(back) Subject: Re: James B. Jamison (cross-posted) From: <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:07:37 -0800 James B. Jamison Salesman & Tonal Advisor 1934-1949 - Austin Organs - from their website Buuuuuuud Phil Stimmel wrote: > I've been doing some research on the large or unusual organs built by > Estey. James B. Jamison's name appears on a lot of their important > early work; however, I've been unable to find much information about the = > man, other than his interesting book "Organ Design and Appraisal" and > some references in Callahan's "American Clasic Organ." > > Can anyone on this list direct me to any other resources or information > about him? > > Thanks. > > Phil Stimmel
(back) Subject: Re: careful, now... From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:13:46 -0500 On 2/13/04 7:37 PM, "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > just listen to a Handel anthem and tell me how many times THOSE words = are > repeated <giggle> Jonathan: I'm with you (though I like what I know of Marva Dawn, too); and you're certainly right about Handel. I think Haydn is even worse. But THOSE compositions are not even remotely intended for liturgical use = ("worship"); they're just concert pieces. It DOES make a major difference. Alan