PipeChat Digest #4295 - Sunday, February 22, 2004
 
Re: Mormon organs
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: Mormon organs
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Mormon organs
  by <Rachmaninoff45@aol.com>
The Diapason
  by "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: The Diapason
  by "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Mormon organs
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Summer 2004 Organ Scholarships - Cross-Posted
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Re: Content Organs
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Content Organs
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Content Organs
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Re: Content Organs
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Mormon organs
  by "Bill Raty" <billious@billraty.com>
windowless Mormon chapels
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Mormon organs
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Re: Mormon organs
  by "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
starving
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Notre Dame-des-Neiges
  by "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com>
Re: Notre Dame-des-Neiges
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Mormon organs From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:38:20 -0600   I firmly believe there is a pipe organ for each and every church that has the space and desires one. There are so many fine organs and fine organ parts and pipes available for relocation these days that any church can surely find something that they can afford. In my experience it has been lack of leadership from those = in authority that has prevented many churches from having a pipe organ. We have always found that far more money is available for a pipe organ than a substitute, once that option is made known to the congregation. Roy Redman   quilisma@cox.net wrote:   > I don't wanna get all snarky about it (grin), but the Tabernacle organ > was recently rebuilt ... presumably that was expensive; a big new > Schoenstein went into the new Assembly Hall; I presume that was VERY > expensive; I would imagine either Allen or Rodgers could have done at > least a credible job in the Assembly Hall's impossible acoustics, given > digital reverb and enough speakers ... though building an electronic > that would pump out enough sound to fill a dead room that seats 21,000 > (sic) people WOULD have been a daunting challenge ... even the Allen (?) > in temporary use at St. John the Divine in NYC doesn't have to do THAT. > > You know where I'm going with this (grin) ... millions for pipe organs > in that case was OK, but not in parish churches? BTW, I DO understand > that the vast majority (if not all) of Mormon parish musicians are > unpaid volunteers ... I doubt you get many professional organists with > degrees and/or AGO certification who'll play for free. We've already > debated the merits/demerits of THAT (chuckle). > > In fairness to the Mormons, lots of Roman Catholic dioceses have come > down with similar edicts ... one diocese put a cap of $100K (!) on the > purchase of organs for new churches, no matter WHAT the size of the > church. One MIGHT be able to build a hymn-playing machine with pipes for > that amount, or possibly recycle an "experienced" organ. > > Today's RC service CAN be played on a very modest organ, providing the > acoustics are decent and the pipes are very GENEROUSLY scaled ... > there's a little 1m Ott in Founders' Chapel, University of San Diego ( a > fairly large room with indifferent acoustics) that does a fine job with > something like: > > MANUAL (divided stops, I think ... maybe not ... it's been awhile since > I played it) > > 8' Open Diapason > 8' Chimney Flute > 4' Octave > 4' Flute > 2' Fifteenth > Mixture (bass) / Cornet (treble) - (like the old Holtkamp at St. James > ACC in Cleveland) > 8' Oboe > > PEDAL > > 16 Bourdon > > Manual to Pedal > > But I doubt you're going to build THAT for $100K ... builders? > > Cheers, > > Bud > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Mormon organs From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:44:22 -0500   On 2/21/04 5:29 PM, "quilisma@cox.net" <quilisma@cox.net> wrote:   > even the Allen (?) in temporary use at St. John the Divine in NYC = doesn't have > to do THAT.   Yes. Renaissance. . And no, it certainly doesn't have to. Even remotely.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Mormon organs From: <Rachmaninoff45@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:03:40 EST   I don't want to be rude or anything, but the Tabernacle Organ is what makes the Tabernacle the Tabernacle. Really, large pipe organs is pretty = much what the tabernacle was/is made of and also Temple Square. The Tabernacle = was renovated by Schoenstein, but renovated it to finely tune it. You will = not find the Schoenstein name label anywhere on the console. Schoenstein = wanted to keep the organ like G. Donald Harrison and Alexander Schreiner left it. = Just give it a little tune up. Every organ needs to be tweeked every so often. = I can personnally vouch that they did an excellent job. (This coming from a = 17 yrs old.) I fine the Tabernacle Organ could never be replaced by a = digital pipe organ.     Best Regards, Gregory Hinson    
(back) Subject: The Diapason From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:11:13 +0100 (CET)   --- Alan Freed <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> skrev: > On 2/21/04 5:29 PM, "quilisma@cox.net" > <quilisma@cox.net> wrote: > > > even the Allen (?) in temporary use at St. John > the Divine in NYC doesn't have > > to do THAT. > > Yes. Renaissance. . And no, it certainly doesn't > have to. Even > remotely. > > Alan > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >   ______________________________________________________ F=E5 den nye Yahoo! Messenger p=E5 http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt s=E5 = morsom  
(back) Subject: Re: The Diapason From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:14:00 +0100 (CET)   Ooops! My right hand pressed "send" by a mistake... Please ignore my previous post.   - Jarle Fagerheim   ______________________________________________________ F=E5 den nye Yahoo! Messenger p=E5 http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt s=E5 = morsom  
(back) Subject: Re: Mormon organs From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:07:39 -0800   True enough, the Conference Center, Tabernacle and Assembly Hall organs are pipe organs, and absolutely top-flight. But these buildings serve a different function than the houses of worship used every Sunday.   And you're right -- most LDS congregations are accompanied by an organist who has no professional training or background on the instrument. This is one reason why the digital organs are the standard. But as we've discussed earlier today, when there do happen to be two or three degreed and certified LDS organists in a local geographic region, the church isn't averse to acknowledging that with a better organ.   (I don't know what would happen if those organists were to move, but I know I don't plan to.)   Eric     On Saturday, February 21, 2004, at 02:29 PM, quilisma@cox.net wrote:   > I don't wanna get all snarky about it (grin), but the Tabernacle organ > was recently rebuilt ... presumably that was expensive; a big new > Schoenstein went into the new Assembly Hall; I presume that was VERY > expensive; I would imagine either Allen or Rodgers could have done at > least a credible job in the Assembly Hall's impossible acoustics, > given digital reverb and enough speakers ... though building an > electronic that would pump out enough sound to fill a dead room that > seats 21,000 (sic) people WOULD have been a daunting challenge ... > even the Allen (?) in temporary use at St. John the Divine in NYC > doesn't have to do THAT. > > You know where I'm going with this (grin) ... millions for pipe organs > in that case was OK, but not in parish churches? BTW, I DO understand > that the vast majority (if not all) of Mormon parish musicians are > unpaid volunteers ... I doubt you get many professional organists > with degrees and/or AGO certification who'll play for free. We've > already debated the merits/demerits of THAT (chuckle). > > In fairness to the Mormons, lots of Roman Catholic dioceses have come > down with similar edicts ... one diocese put a cap of $100K (!) on the > purchase of organs for new churches, no matter WHAT the size of the > church. One MIGHT be able to build a hymn-playing machine with pipes > for that amount, or possibly recycle an "experienced" organ. > > Today's RC service CAN be played on a very modest organ, providing the > acoustics are decent and the pipes are very GENEROUSLY scaled ... > there's a little 1m Ott in Founders' Chapel, University of San Diego ( > a fairly large room with indifferent acoustics) that does a fine job > with something like: > > MANUAL (divided stops, I think ... maybe not ... it's been awhile > since I played it) > > 8' Open Diapason > 8' Chimney Flute > 4' Octave > 4' Flute > 2' Fifteenth > Mixture (bass) / Cornet (treble) - (like the old Holtkamp at St. James > ACC in Cleveland) > 8' Oboe > > PEDAL > > 16 Bourdon > > Manual to Pedal > > But I doubt you're going to build THAT for $100K ... builders? > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Summer 2004 Organ Scholarships - Cross-Posted From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:53:09 -0500   Rodgers Instruments LLC is offering 5 full organ study scholarships this summer at the International Music Camp, a 48-year-old summer arts program that brings together an outstanding faculty of musicians and performing organists at the International Peace Gardens in North Dakota. This internationally recognized camp is located on the U.S.-Canada border.   For details, please visit:   www.frogmusic.com/aspire.html     -- noel jones, aago noeljones@frogmusic.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ moderator, rodgers organ users group frog music press www.frogmusic.com 423 887-7594 athens, tn, usa      
(back) Subject: Re: Content Organs From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:39:16 -0500     Bob Nickel has lead us to remarkable series of recordings on the Content Organ in Martini Church, Bolsward, The Nederlands.   You can hear it by going to the Content organ Web page: http://www.content-organs.com/Resolutie/Eng/800.htm   This may well be an electronic organ, but I bet that a lot of organists would give their eye teeth to ba able to play such an instrument. I am quite certain that the real thing is far better then the MP3 tracks that = we can download, - but for me, at least, it is a very pleasant sound.   It is these sort of products that need to be heard, and not put down all the time. There is room for all of them.   Do not get me wrong, I would much prefer to have a pipe organ to listen = to, but good electronic organs are much better than they were even ten years = ago!   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Re: Content Organs From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:28:05 EST   In a message dated 2/21/2004 2:45:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu writes:   > frequently used pipe, and every time the organ is turned on, the > digital ranks tune themselves automatically to the pipes. I swoon   ahlborn-galanti has this sensor, Walker tech has this sensor, i bet allen has this sensor wicks has this sensor     you get the pic....   sorry but i feel snippy tonight   dale in flordia    
(back) Subject: Re: Content Organs From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:56:33 -0800   I certainly didn't mean to infer Rodgers had the monopoly on this technology... I did mean to infer that it was one element of the overall Rodgers picture that I enjoy.     On Saturday, February 21, 2004, at 07:28 PM, Keys4bach@aol.com wrote:   > In a message dated 2/21/2004 2:45:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu writes: > > frequently used pipe, and every time the organ is turned on, the > digital ranks tune themselves automatically to the pipes. I swoon > > > > ahlborn-galanti has this sensor, > Walker tech has this sensor, > i bet allen has this sensor > wicks has this sensor > > > you get the pic.... > > sorry but i feel snippy tonight > > dale in flordia >    
(back) Subject: Re: Content Organs From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:07:07 -0800   I HAVE heard and played one live, and they are in my not-so-humble opinion the absolute bottom of the electronic substitute barrel.   Cheers,   Bud   Bob Conway wrote:   > > Bob Nickel has lead us to remarkable series of recordings on the Content =   > Organ in Martini Church, Bolsward, The Nederlands. > > You can hear it by going to the Content organ Web page: > http://www.content-organs.com/Resolutie/Eng/800.htm > > This may well be an electronic organ, but I bet that a lot of organists > would give their eye teeth to ba able to play such an instrument. I am > quite certain that the real thing is far better then the MP3 tracks that =   > we can download, - but for me, at least, it is a very pleasant sound. > > It is these sort of products that need to be heard, and not put down all =   > the time. There is room for all of them. > > Do not get me wrong, I would much prefer to have a pipe organ to listen > to, but good electronic organs are much better than they were even ten > years ago! > > Bob Conway > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Mormon organs From: "Bill Raty" <billious@billraty.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:11:11 -0800 (PST)   Ummm, it is extremely uncommon and rare for LDS chapels to have pipe organs, even in congregations that have many trained musicians.   I grew up in the LDS church in Orem Utah in the 60s and 70s. Orem at the time was 95% LDS. There is either an LDS chapel or stake center nearly every half a mile. My ward had five extremely talented and credentialed musicians, 4 of which played the organ incredibly well.   The fine sister who taught me my first organ lessons in the ward had taken lessons at BYU from Doug Bush and wasn't your standard volunteer organist. Not only was the service and hymn playing done well, but I remember how thrilling it was to sing along to the first free harmonization I had heard that she had arranged herself.   She lobbied long and hard to have a pipe organ installed in our stake center, if not in our ward chapel, and was shot down every time. Even though she had the talent, the vocation, and the calling, and that she would voluntarily teach the organ to area students gratis, the ward leaders (bishop, his consellors, etc.) wouldn't spring for it.   I also know that church headquarters doesn't encourage local wards to install pipe organs, has set caps on how much can be invested, etc. I believe Doug Bush and his stake in Provo has had to go through a lot of effort (bake sales, car washings, etc.) to have a modest winded instrument installed in his home stake center, and he teaches the organ at BYU, in probably the most center of mormondom on the face of the earth!   I believe in all fairness that the reasons are not only the initial investment, but that a real instrument needs to be kept in a friendly environment as far as temperature is concerned, not to mention periodic maintenance and tuning. During the 80s many of the ward houses in Orem removed their tall glass windows and replaced them with masonry and flourescent lights to save on heating expenses. Chapels became functional but drab meeting places instead of the handsome edifices they once were.   Certainly a ward that has to turn their chapel into a cave to save money would be hard pressed to afford the maintenance of pipes (i.e. moderating the temperature of the building when people aren't there for the sake of the organ).   I'll make the snarky comment here: when I go to church my spirit needs to be nourished by more than the gospel presented verbally. My spirit needs to be nourished by rejoicing in song and other beauty that has been inspired by the gospel.   -Bill   --- Eric McKirdy <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote: > ... > But as we've discussed earlier today, when there do happen to > be two or > three degreed and certified LDS organists in a local > geographic region, > the church isn't averse to acknowledging that with a better > organ. > ...  
(back) Subject: windowless Mormon chapels From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:28:26 -0800   OK, that explains THAT. Most of the chapels around here ARE windowless. I thought it might have been a holdover from the time of persecution, much like the Irish-American Roman Catholics who built fortress-churches with narrow lancet windows at ground level when they first came to the = U.S.   I'm not sure that extremes of temperature is a valid excuse for not having a pipe organ, though. Cincinnati ranges from zero degrees F. to over 100 degrees F. ... ALL the old RC organs are in west galleries; NONE of the churches are air-conditioned; FEW are heated during the week; those old K & Gs just keep chugging along.   THe one we moved came out of a redundant church, and hadn't been tuned in DECADES ... it was still pretty much in tune, except for a few clunkers here and there in the reed ranks. Most of the EXPOSED leather had to be replaced, but the pallet-leathers were absolutely PRISTINE.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Mormon organs From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:20:56 -0800   There's a lot of additional expense involved in modifying an existing building to fit a pipe organ into it. What we're talking about here (where I live) is putting a large organ into a building upon which work won't even begin for another year. We have all kinds of time to modify the building design slightly to accommodate whatever we end up with.   Eric     On Saturday, February 21, 2004, at 08:11 PM, Bill Raty wrote:   > Ummm, it is extremely uncommon and rare for LDS chapels to have > pipe organs, even in congregations that have many trained > musicians. > > I grew up in the LDS church in Orem Utah in the 60s and 70s. > Orem at the time was 95% LDS. There is either an LDS chapel or > stake center nearly every half a mile. My ward had five > extremely talented and credentialed musicians, 4 of which > played the organ incredibly well. > > The fine sister who taught me my first organ lessons in the > ward had taken lessons at BYU from Doug Bush and wasn't your > standard volunteer organist. Not only was the service and hymn > playing done well, but I remember how thrilling it was to sing > along to the first free harmonization I had heard that she had > arranged herself. > > She lobbied long and hard to have a pipe organ installed in our > stake center, if not in our ward chapel, and was shot down > every time. Even though she had the talent, the vocation, and > the calling, and that she would voluntarily teach the organ to > area students gratis, the ward leaders (bishop, his consellors, > etc.) wouldn't spring for it. > > I also know that church headquarters doesn't encourage local > wards to install pipe organs, has set caps on how much can be > invested, etc. I believe Doug Bush and his stake in Provo has > had to go through a lot of effort (bake sales, car washings, > etc.) to have a modest winded instrument installed in his home > stake center, and he teaches the organ at BYU, in probably the > most center of mormondom on the face of the earth! > > I believe in all fairness that the reasons are not only the > initial investment, but that a real instrument needs to be kept > in a friendly environment as far as temperature is concerned, > not to mention periodic maintenance and tuning. During the 80s > many of the ward houses in Orem removed their tall glass > windows and replaced them with masonry and flourescent lights > to save on heating expenses. Chapels became functional but > drab meeting places instead of the handsome edifices they once > were. > > Certainly a ward that has to turn their chapel into a cave to > save money would be hard pressed to afford the maintenance of > pipes (i.e. moderating the temperature of the building when > people aren't there for the sake of the organ). > > I'll make the snarky comment here: when I go to church my > spirit needs to be nourished by more than the gospel presented > verbally. My spirit needs to be nourished by rejoicing in song > and other beauty that has been inspired by the gospel. > > -Bill > > --- Eric McKirdy <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote: >> ... >> But as we've discussed earlier today, when there do happen to >> be two or >> three degreed and certified LDS organists in a local >> geographic region, >> the church isn't averse to acknowledging that with a better >> organ. >> ... > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Mormon organs From: "Eric McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:26:44 -0800   On Saturday, February 21, 2004, at 08:11 PM, Bill Raty wrote:   > when I go to church my > spirit needs to be nourished by more than the gospel presented > verbally. My spirit needs to be nourished by rejoicing in song > and other beauty that has been inspired by the gospel.   I don't think any person reading that here will disagree!!      
(back) Subject: starving From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:50:29 -0800   The problem is that most people don't REALIZE what they're being robbed of. I remember walking out of Notre Dame behind an American couple who remarked,   "Well, it's a nice BUILDING, but I can't imagine going to CHURCH there = (!)"   Or the wealthy low-church Anglicans around the nation who have box seats at the symphony, but won't allow the Faure Requiem to be sung in their CHURCHES.   My anglo-catholic rector used to laugh at them ... they'd throw yipping s**t-fits over altar hangings, vestments, and six candles on the altar (particular fetishes of low-church Episcopalians), but, as he bluntly pointed out in a sermon, when he went to their houses for DINNER, there were liveried servants, HIGH domestic ceremonial, dozens of candles on the sideboard, and fine linens, china, silver, brocade and damask EVERYWHERE.   At the conclusion of the sermon, he leaned down over the high pulpit and glared at them ...   "Do you then think more of your guests than you do of your GOD?"   He got his Solemn Mass sets donated the next WEEK (chuckle).   Chuckle.   Bud   Eric McKirdy wrote:   > On Saturday, February 21, 2004, at 08:11 PM, Bill Raty wrote: > >> when I go to church my >> spirit needs to be nourished by more than the gospel presented >> verbally. My spirit needs to be nourished by rejoicing in song >> and other beauty that has been inspired by the gospel. > > > I don't think any person reading that here will disagree!! > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Notre Dame-des-Neiges From: "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:27:41 -0600   Ahhhh! I almost forgot about the famous "hand" organ! I myself have come =   up with a rather "cattish" case concept for a little place out in California=97Isis Oasis in Geyserville=97that is if they ever have the = money to actually get an organ there. They do have the cats however. BIG ones! Ever walk an ocelot cub on a leash? Not sure I can send attachments to = the list so if anyone is interested, I'll give you a peek off-list. = Purrrrrrrrr .. . .   jim   O):^)   _________________________________________________________________ Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/    
(back) Subject: Re: Notre Dame-des-Neiges From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:39:56 -0800   The fretwork screen on the Brustwerk of the Fritts-Richards in All Souls Church, San Diego has crabs, seahorses, clams, conchs, starfish, and all manner of sea creatures.   Cheers,   Bud   james nerstheimer wrote:   > Ahhhh! I almost forgot about the famous "hand" organ! I myself have > come up with a rather "cattish" case concept for a little place out in > California=97Isis Oasis in Geyserville=97that is if they ever have the = money > to actually get an organ there. They do have the cats however. BIG > ones! Ever walk an ocelot cub on a leash? Not sure I can send > attachments to the list so if anyone is interested, I'll give you a peek =   > off-list. Purrrrrrrrr . . . > > jim > > O):^) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! > http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >